tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1115465371280371260..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Irredeemably EvilJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger127125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62260798685086037422009-05-02T14:29:00.000-04:002009-05-02T14:29:00.000-04:00Carl/LStyer: and there we have the relativist/abso...Carl/LStyer: and there we have the relativist/absolutist split in a nutshell.<br /><br />We learn from the history of politics that there can be individual dissent against broad cultural norms. There are limits to such dissent too, though. I recommend Mary Douglass' <I>Purity and Danger</I> for anyone who wants a really good discussion of this.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87534009089921614072009-05-02T11:04:00.000-04:002009-05-02T11:04:00.000-04:00Carl said:
So long as you spell out to the players...<I>Carl</I> said:<br /><B>So long as you spell out to the players what the moral code of their culture is, all of the above is fair game, and you won't have any of the messy in-game dillemmas where a player wonders if what his character is doing is right or wrong.</B>I'm not sure I understand why spelling out the moral code of a character's culture answers the question of whether a character who acts in accordance with that code is right or wrong.<br /><br />That a culture accepts a given behavior as morally right doesn't mean that behavior is morally right, nor is the opposite true.<br /><br />That a given person's culture accepts a given behavior as right doesn't even mean that the person accepts that the behavior is right.Luke Styerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01496921133712199576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56055605604815505732009-05-01T01:40:00.000-04:002009-05-01T01:40:00.000-04:00"All right, then, I'm game. What aspect o..."All right, then, I'm game. What aspect of medieval culture do you reference to determine how orcs should be treated by adventurers?"<br /><br />No. My point was to disprove the claims like "D&D is a complete fantasy". You're assuming that to do so implies a claim that "D&D is completely realistic". The two are not converses, and I don't need to pursue the latter.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88821678357709280322009-04-30T21:39:00.000-04:002009-04-30T21:39:00.000-04:00Orcs and goblins are the terrorists of the fantasy...Orcs and goblins are the terrorists of the fantasy world. Not totally without honor of sorts, and not always devoid of redeeming qualities. But an enemy of all, giving no quarter, asking no quarter, and deserving no quarter.<br /><br />For the record, there are no orcish non-combatants encountered in my worlds. Maybe they're hidden deep within the mythic underworld.<br /><br />And I really don't *want* to know where half-orcs come from. If I did, I'd probably be in favor of seeking out the hidden so they could be exterminated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4062716630627530902009-04-30T08:14:00.000-04:002009-04-30T08:14:00.000-04:00@Chris T"Something I was thinking about when ...<B>@Chris T</B>"Something I was thinking about when I played my first D&D game in almost two decades a while back ("why are we in this dungeon again? do we have to kill the kobolds?" etc)"<br /><br />Interestingly, we started play in the CSIO and spoke to the kobolds etc. from the start. I still run the JG setting that way, where humanoids are more or less unpleasent "people" that you sometimes have to deal with. When I use Greyhawk it's much more intense and the kobolds and so forth are literally constructed by the evil gods in order to overrun and destroy the world - they're built evil. They may be sentient and intelligent but they can no more prevent themselves being evil than a sentient intelligent human can prevent themselves from sleeping.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6471581832842561982009-04-30T06:44:00.000-04:002009-04-30T06:44:00.000-04:00Really interesting thread btw. Something I was thi...Really interesting thread btw. Something I was thinking about when I played my first D&D game in almost two decades a while back ("why are we in this dungeon again? do we have to kill the kobolds?" etc)<br /><br />I'm only half-way through and have to stop to do something that I've been procrastinating all day.<br /><br />LOL @ <A HREF="http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/04/irredeemably-evil.html?showComment=1240974600000#c5158230099348218649" REL="nofollow">Adam Thornton</A>. GoldChris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34051279367376956162009-04-30T06:38:00.000-04:002009-04-30T06:38:00.000-04:00Matthew James Stanham said re the origins of the H...Matthew James Stanham said re the origins of the Half-Orc...<br />--<br /> <I> Oh, there definitely are. Just type it into a Google image search...</I>--<br /><br />Not for the first time in my life am I wishing that I could unsee things...<br /><br />(playorc.com)Chris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84254041402506871692009-04-29T22:29:00.000-04:002009-04-29T22:29:00.000-04:00@joshua: In my experience, especially in more rece...@joshua: <I>In my experience, especially in more recent years, I've had a blast playing in games that had no moral center, and in fact had some very shady if not outright evil characters. What I have <B>not</B> had, though, is boring characters that aren't interesting to me... Someone like Keyzer Soze as a D&D character sounds really fascinating.</I>Lest my position be misinterpreted, I think there are two different ideas here.<br /><br />First, there's the question of whether morality is <I>defined</I> in a game setting. In other words, do we as <I>players</I> agree with what our characters would know: what's right and what's wrong in the game world? Ideally the game can provide that information; barring that, the group can decide on it.<br /><br />Second, there's the question of what the individual protagonists choose to do within that moral framework. Personally, I need those I game with to attempt to adhere to the "more right than not" side of the setting's moral framework. This is partly due to my own squeamishness, and partly due to my own lack of ability to come up with appropriate motivations and challenges for characters who don't follow a moral code I can identify with.<br /><br />As an easy GMing example, let's say I have an orc raid on a human village. During a tense scene, I have one of the orcs tackle a human girl and say, "Put down your weapons, or I kill the child!"<br /><br />For gamers who follow a similar moral code to what I appreciate, this presents an interesting dilemma: How do I stop the orc, while keeping the girl alive?<br /><br />There are many, many ways the PCs can resolve this situation in what I consider to be a "moral" fashion. They could surrender their weapons, hoping to reverse the situation or trick them later. They could attempt some kind of distraction. They could attack and hope they're faster than the orc.<br /><br />I would even accept a magician flinging a fireball at the two of them, if he recognized that there was no way he was fast enough to save the girl, and he believed that the orc posed a greater threat to people he <I>could</I> save. But I would hope that the hero (and player) would feel really bad about the situation; ideally he would view it as a springboard for future adventure (attempting to atone to his gods, make amends to the family, seek better skills that would enable him to avoid that situation in the future, or whatever).<br /><br />What I would <I>not</I> be comfortable with is if the player (and character) said, "Hostage? I don't care! FIREBALL! Ha-ha-ha..." and gleefully charred both girl and orc.<br /><br />I don't begrudge gaming groups that <I>can</I> make that work; rather, I know my own limitations as a storyteller, and I wouldn't have fun trying to come up with challenges and storylines that could keep such players entertained.Steven Marshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06600178337262614567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31074983164440926942009-04-29T21:49:00.000-04:002009-04-29T21:49:00.000-04:00This is just to big an issue for me to comment upo...This is just to big an issue for me to comment upon. I'll write my own ideas in my own blog instead. I'll just add my two cents about what I consider the core of the problem in D&D.<br /><br />I do think alignment is the worst thing ever invented in D&D, because it creates such behaviour that Steven reacts to. <br /><br />There, I said it.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18045927040545057562009-04-29T21:19:00.000-04:002009-04-29T21:19:00.000-04:00While all types of fiction (books, movies, RPGs) m...While all types of fiction (books, movies, RPGs) might have escapism strains, there's no reason that has to be the only strain or even the primary one.<br /><br />So you can see Henry V and think "Wow, I would like to be King and have all that power." Or you can think, "If I were King, would I hang my old friend for stealing bread if that's what I needed to do to define my power?"<br /><br />And the point of having moral challenges in your games is not to push a particular answer. It's because (some people) find these kind of questions engaging, maybe even more engaging then figuring out that you have to push the lintel twice on the left to open the secret door.<br /><br />On the whole orcs issue, I find that both posture ("orcs are evil" and "orcs are misunderstood") shut down what should be an ongoing question. And in fact, I think that we all like the ambiguity of an unanswered question. Because otherwise, we wouldn't use orcs, we'd use undead when we wanted evil and we'd use humans with funny accents when we wanted misunderstood.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49331628581970175432009-04-29T19:27:00.000-04:002009-04-29T19:27:00.000-04:00Santiago that was brilliant!!Santiago that was brilliant!!Olschoolgamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01950604286211188411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77374035628033073682009-04-29T18:59:00.000-04:002009-04-29T18:59:00.000-04:00Just wanted to add:
http://images.encyclopediadr...Just wanted to add: <br /><br />http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/4/43/Alignment_demotivator.jpg<br /><br />Each will do his own in his game, anyway.Santiago Oríahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004778441776946649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29057513490584124172009-04-29T18:21:00.000-04:002009-04-29T18:21:00.000-04:00"The only conern I have for 'morality' in my games..."The only conern I have for 'morality' in my games is to not go somewhere where the other players are uncomfortable."<br /><br />That's true. I think everyone has heard horror stories about players alienated from the hobby by GMs who insist on lengthy and graphic descriptions of torture and rape/misogyny and other such skeevy stuff because "Hey, I'm just being realistic" or whatever.<br /><br />Nobody likes or needs that kind of crap.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28103629565881056972009-04-29T18:15:00.000-04:002009-04-29T18:15:00.000-04:00This is my third attempt to post this, so I'm lagg...This is my third attempt to post this, so I'm lagging a bit behind the flow of posts...<br /><br />"It is an unprecedented assumption to state that the whole purpose of gaming is to make a difference in the game world. Huh? Says who?" <br /><br />Well, I can <I>sort of</I> imagine a soap-opera game where the character's actions are self-contained and don't matter to the world at large, but I think that's just a case of redefining "world" to a small stage for a specialised type of play. I've never encountered such play or heard of a game where the character's actions are supposed or expected to be as limited as the player's real lives but I can imagine it as a rather dry possibility. Perhaps I've missed something. However, I stand by it as a point specifically about D&D and fantasy gaming in general - the prime motivation for players and designers is to pretend that certain limitiations of the real world do not apply and characters are thereby empowerd beyond the players' real lives in some way. I'm happy to hear counter examples that have made some sort of mainstream mark, but I doubt such exist.<br /><br />"It's also an unprecedented assumption that the game's purpose is escapism. Another one that I reject."<br /><br />Well this is incomprehensible to me. I can only assume that there is a language barrier here and that we are not understanding each other. I've never seem more than one or two sessions where the players literally played themselves and as far as I can see anything else is escapism of some form.<br /><br />"my foremost thought, and I've always had this paradigm, even back in the early 80s when it wasn't trendy yet, was "would this make an interesting story if I were reading about it?" <br /><br />Ah, right. Well then we're talking about two different things, then. Role playing is the opposite of that. That's story-telling and is a totally different thing, so it's not surprising that we differ here.<br /><br />"I also strongly dislike the assumption that gaming is done for the purpose of escapism. I'd like to think that I've never shied away from confronting difficult issues, in the guise of gaming, if I thought it would be interesting."<br /><br />Escapism doesn't mean shying away from difficult issues, it may simply mean imagining that your opinion on those issues matters. Role players do a lot of dealing with complex issues in my experience.<br /><br />"If you think about it, the default "old school" presumption about how D&D would be played; where characters who were wooden, flat and frankly uninteresting, went into holes in the ground to fight monsters for treasure and experience, is an incredibly boring story. Many gamers don't care, and that's perfectly fine, but even so, I defy almost anyone to say that they'd enjoy a book about characters like that, or a movie"<br /><br />This is a natural consequence of the fact that <I>telling</I> a story and <I>playing</I> a role in what eventually, in retrospect, <I>becomes</I> a story are two entirely different activities as I said above. <br /><br />"Since my tastes have always run towards approximating the experience I got from reading a good book, except interactive, as if I were a collaborating writer, and since my tastes in books occasionally runs to something deeper than the latest D&D fiction novel by Ed Greenwood or whatever, I've never seen gaming as an exercise in escapism."<br /><br />Well, unless you read exclusively non-fiction I highly doubt that you are not engaging in escapism. The vast majority of literature is escapism of one kind or another, whether Dickens or Greenwood; Shakespere or Binchy.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51584629358531822442009-04-29T17:12:00.000-04:002009-04-29T17:12:00.000-04:00Oh, don't get me wrong. I was never looking a...Oh, don't get me wrong. I was never looking at anything as dramatic as narrative control mechanics, or anything. Gaming is gaming; it's not collaborative story-writing. I'm not one of those latte set storyteller type gamers, and except for a very brief fling to try out that paradigm, I never have been.<br /><br />That said, although different media have different strengths, I think there's more overlap than not between many of them. I like seeing a cool plot unfold, whether by GM design or mere happenstance; and moving from room to room to kill monsters isn't a cool plot. To take your own advice to heart; if that's what I wanted, I wouldn't play D&D. I'd play a CRPG, or Warhammer Quest. That completely ignores the potential of roleplaying games.<br /><br />And to bring this back on topic, I don't necessarily care for having characters that approximate me or my values in real life. This <I>isn't</I> real life. These are fictional characters. They can do whatever they need to to make the game turn out fun and interesting, not what I would do if I were in their shoes. And what's fun and interesting isn't neccessarily always what's good. That's why I took exception to the comment made earlier (I believe by Nagora, although he wasn't the only one to make it) that if your characters are doing bad things during your escapist romp, then that says something about you as a person. Those are completely unwarranted assumptions.<br /><br />That's exactly why games like Grand Theft Auto are fun in spite of the whole theme of the game. That's why characters like James Bond are interesting (or Dirty Harry, or other darker anti-hero types.)<br /><br />The only conern I have for "morality" in my games is to not go somewhere where the other players are uncomfortable.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69929297275813242822009-04-29T16:52:00.000-04:002009-04-29T16:52:00.000-04:00I suppose if you see it that way, although I see "...I suppose if you see it that way, although I see "wooden, flat and frankly uninteresting" characters as a pernicious stereotype about the Old School style and not a fact of life.<br /><br />I suppose I never wanted my RPGs to remind me of movies or novels. Or my video games to remind me of board games. Or my board games to remind me of comic books. Or...<br /><br />Well, you get the idea. Every entertainment medium is more interesting to me when it plays to its own unique strengths instead of venturing into square peg/round hole territory by being too emulative.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24559596575438700092009-04-29T16:25:00.000-04:002009-04-29T16:25:00.000-04:00Sorry, Will... conflating two responses.
To elabo...Sorry, Will... conflating two responses.<br /><br />To elaborate, as I said in my first reply here, my foremost thought, and I've always had this paradigm, even back in the early 80s when it wasn't trendy yet, was "would this make an interesting story if I were reading about it?" I've always approached gaming with a novel-writer type perspective. And I've read a lot of novels, about a lot of different kinds of characters. A novel writer has to, at least to some extent, put himself sufficiently in the shoes of all his characters that he can portray them sufficiently convincingly, not just the protagonists, and not just the likeable, heroic ones.<br /><br />In my experience, especially in more recent years, I've had a blast playing in games that had no moral center, and in fact had some very shady if not outright evil characters. What I have <B>not</B> had, though, is boring characters that aren't interesting to me. Even relatively low-grade amoral characters, like Locke Lamora, for instance, are imminently useful as models for gaming characters. Someone like Keyzer Soze as a D&D character sounds really fascinating.<br /><br />I also strongly dislike the assumption that gaming is done for the purpose of escapism. I'd like to think that I've never shied away from confronting difficult issues, in the guise of gaming, if I thought it would be interesting. And why wouldn't it be? Those kinds of things <I>are</I> interesting to explore; how would someone deal with such and such an issue? How about someone with a completely different personality type?<br /><br />If you think about it, the default "old school" presumption about how D&D would be played; where characters who were wooden, flat and frankly uninteresting, went into holes in the ground to fight monsters for treasure and experience, is an incredibly boring story. Many gamers don't care, and that's perfectly fine, but even so, I defy almost anyone to say that they'd enjoy a book about characters like that, or a movie. Since my tastes have always run towards approximating the experience I got from reading a good book, except interactive, as if I were a collaborating writer, and since my tastes in books occasionally runs to something deeper than the latest D&D fiction novel by Ed Greenwood or whatever, I've never seen gaming as an exercise in escapism.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72939168319123216472009-04-29T16:07:00.000-04:002009-04-29T16:07:00.000-04:00It's just a game. How it is used or misued is up t...<I>It's just a game. How it is used or misued is up to the people involved. These arguments ring to me of the same rhetoric that wants bans on violent games, movies, TV, on the yet to be substantiated account that it corrupts well-adjusted people.</I><BR> Talking about, addressing unpleasant issues in the games we love does NOT equate with a proposal to censor them. <br /><br /><I>I feel reading this thread that some people not only don't know how to have fun, they don't *want* to have fun!<br /></I><BR>This bothers me. Why do you assume you have to play the game a certain way to "have fun"? Why does my having a different perspective than you on the game mean that I "don't want to have fun"? <br /><br />At any rate, I'm not asking anyone to do anything other than to think about some of the unsavory connotations to an aspect of D&D that most of us take for granted. I don't even mind "orcs" being in a campaign or them being "irredeemably evil", but the fact that they have evolved into an often contextless signifier that players can kill everyone they come across, right down to the women and infants, as long as the beings in question have green skin and red eyes bothers me. And I don't think it "kills the fun" of D&D to challenge that notion.TyBannermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241483332119936529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67527898874874750592009-04-29T15:00:00.000-04:002009-04-29T15:00:00.000-04:00So long as you spell out to the players what the m...<I> So long as you spell out to the players what the moral code of their culture is, all of the above is fair game, and you won't have any of the messy in-game dillemmas where a player wonders if what his character is doing is right or wrong.</I>Don't sweat it Carl.<br /><br />Again assuming well-adjusted people who can tell fantasy from reality? I can deal with content as a matter of taste and context. There are certainly games out there who's subject matter is not my cup of tea, (A notable current example is the Carcosa supplement, which is rich with the tropes of pulp fantasy including the use of sacrifices to power magic that summons summon cthulhoid monsters). I admire the context, but the content just isn't for me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13973301663176412762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39652911699839887562009-04-29T14:52:00.000-04:002009-04-29T14:52:00.000-04:00"I don't understand what you want me to elaborate ..."I don't understand what you want me to elaborate on. You're the one who made a needlessly limiting assumption about how everyone must play the game."<br /><br />Actually, I asked you to elaborate, and I didn't say that at all. :)<br /><br />I just want to hear how your experience differs. What's the purpose of your gaming if not escapism or making your mark on a fantasy world?Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76794818864424431352009-04-29T14:43:00.000-04:002009-04-29T14:43:00.000-04:00Absolutely not kidding. It is an unprecedented as...Absolutely not kidding. It is an unprecedented assumption to state that the whole purpose of gaming is to make a difference in the game world. Huh? Says who? It's an unprecedented assumption to say that the purpose of gaming is escapism. Huh? Says who?<br /><br />I don't understand what you want me to elaborate on. You're the one who made a needlessly limiting assumption about how everyone <I>must</I> play the game.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29041312668304677152009-04-29T14:41:00.000-04:002009-04-29T14:41:00.000-04:00I get what you're saying Carl, and my response is ...I get what you're saying Carl, and my response is who says I don't run or play my games like that sometimes? :)<br /><br />Sometimes I'm in games where consequences are always tested, and the dilemmas are truly exciting because the situation has no easy answers. You do your level best to do what is right as a hero (usually the assumption for those games), and hope for the best from there.<br /><br />Other times it's Pac-Man. You wander around picking up whatever is interesting, and when you see a ghost it's eat or be eaten! It's okay though. The ghosts just run back home, yell "Base!", and eventually return with a fresh new sheet. As time passes the mazes change and the ghosts get faster, but hey that's part of the challenge.<br /><br />Best part about RPGs is that I can play the game to fit the fun I want at that time.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13973301663176412762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83178437776763822932009-04-29T14:35:00.000-04:002009-04-29T14:35:00.000-04:00@James again (sorry, not trying to pick on you)
"T...@James again (sorry, not trying to pick on you)<br />"These arguments ring to me of the same rhetoric that wants bans on violent games, movies, TV, on the yet to be substantiated account that it corrupts well-adjusted people"<br />If you follow my logic what I am suggesting is actually the exact opposite of that. You can run a game doing what I suggest where the players rip the hearts out of infants and eat them while they are still beating. You can run a game where players kill each other. You can run a game with demons as the player characters. So long as you spell out to the players what the moral code of their culture is, all of the above is fair game, and you won't have any of the messy in-game dillemmas where a player wonders if what his character is doing is right or wrong.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07648499022366444265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54632170864527652162009-04-29T14:22:00.001-04:002009-04-29T14:22:00.001-04:00@steven
"My biggest objection is in settings that ...@steven<br />"My biggest objection is in settings that are ill-defined enough where I don't know how my hero or his society would react to his actions."<br /><br />Exactly my point. I have no problem with the campaign where orcs are killed on sight, as long as it is understand that that is the way of things in the campaign society/world.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07648499022366444265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61646169752353909792009-04-29T14:22:00.000-04:002009-04-29T14:22:00.000-04:00Joshua: "That's an unprecedented assumption to cla...Joshua: "That's an unprecedented assumption to claim that that's the premise on which roleplaying is based. I reject it utterly as incompatible with my experience in the hobby. It's also an unprecedented assumption that the game's purpose is escapism. Another one that I reject."<br /><br />I know humour travels very badly on the Internet, but you are kidding here aren't you?Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.com