tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1123328136133237700..comments2024-03-28T09:35:24.699-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: On Re-Reading The Lord of the RingsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21664543640356542612011-08-09T07:10:24.850-04:002011-08-09T07:10:24.850-04:00I can't but wonder why LOTR is labelled as &qu...I can't but wonder why LOTR is labelled as "High Fantasy". Middle-Earth elves are not sprites whith firefly wings dwelling in a silver castle over the rainbow, but skinny forest people who's homes are made of logs or carved in ordinary stone. There are not rivers of liquid gold, nor waterfalls pouring from floating mountains. Hobbits don't believe in dragons, and laugh at the idea of a walking tree. Many men don't even know what thing is a hobbit. Winter's cold is more deadly than Smaug's fiery breath. Wizards can't teleport or going around in flying broomsticks. Good guys ride horses, not pegasus or unicorns. All in all, it feels more like "Feet-to-ground Fantasy".<br /><br /><i> The one thing I hear from fellow lifelong LOTR fans who saw the films when they came out, that so many have in common, is that they teared up in joy from the dipiction of beloved characters, places and situations from the book. They waited their whole lives to see these things depticted, and Peter Jackson delivered in spades. That speaks some serious volumes about how much they got right. </i><br /><br />I would stab my mother's back for a movie like the one you are depicting. And I would stab my eyes rather that withstanding for a second time the aberration commited by Peter Jackson. Must admit that it made me feel like crying, but not from the joy. If he got something right, I missed it entirely. Now, I wonder if you and me are talking about the same movie.<br /><br />The problem with 'The Fellowship of the Ring' is that it shamelessly borrowed names (of both people and places) and situations from the book going from the same title. From example, the movie's main character is a "Frodo" from "the Shire" who gots a cursed ring from his uncle "Bilbo". To anybody who has read the book, it's pretty obvious where the screenwriters got their inspiration. <br /><br />These coincidences lead to misguided morons like myself to expect FotR to be an adaptation of the book. Now I've grown wise enough to know that an adaptation of LOTR is gonna suck, no matter what. It's materially impossible to shoehorn in the narrow boundaries of one, or even three movies, without loosing the inner coherence, the richness of detail and the pace. You would need a multi-season series for this (cfr. 'The Tudors'). <br /><br />If you are looking for a sample of a doomed adaptation, let's have a look at 'The Golden Compass'. Peter Jackson didn't even try it. The "Sauron" in his movie has nothing to do with Tolkien's Sauron but the name, and so has "Frodo". It's not that the characters in the movie doesn't match their counterparts in the books (and the One Ring is a character. And Bree is a character. And the Weathertop is a character), is that they frontally contradict them. "Frodo" is no longer the brave adventurer we know and love, but a chickenheart with frog eyes, his companions are a bunch of drooling idiots, "Gandalf" a fool old man, and the princess a tomboy.anonimous, emperador en el exiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204169087393199959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42298186770262480122011-07-31T17:04:00.978-04:002011-07-31T17:04:00.978-04:00I´ve always envisioned Middle-earth as very gritty...I´ve always envisioned Middle-earth as very gritty and gloomy world, a place where magic and wonder is slowly fadding away. The Third Age is a shadow of the former glory of older days, with crumbling kingdoms and vast wilderness -like Eriador- litered with the ruins of ancient empires. The true magic are rare, the province of a handful of very magical creatures, divine or diabolical, and the magic items are even rarer. The sorcery of men is a dark business, often bringing dark fates to its practicioners. Add hordes of spawned monsters, undead-infested barrows and distant and uncaring deities and you have a truly badass, S&W hell of a setting, IMHO.lizahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09786809318270279916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-834050549389516582011-07-30T11:04:47.991-04:002011-07-30T11:04:47.991-04:00"In the books a frail chick with zero battle ..."In the books a frail chick with zero battle ground experience defeats a nazgul (at fuller strength than the Weathertop encounter) and it's mount pretty handily. So once again your observations fall flat as a Hobbits pancake breakfast." <br /><br />I see. So what you're saying is that my complaint that the nazgul seem under-powered for the fear they instil in characters is countered by the fact that they are in fact under-powered for the amount of fear that they instil? I hadn't thought of it like that...<br /><br />"Personally, I can enjoy the books and the movies as two different things. But I'm cool like that" <br /><br />Absolutely. As I said, a bad movie is a bad movie without having to constantly refer back to its source to pick on detailed differences of dialogue or plot. In the particular case of Weathertop it was you who made the claim that the book version of the scene would not have worked, and I think that the book version would have made a better visual than the Keystone Cops version that was literally laughed at in the cinema I was in. I actually felt a bit embarrassed for the director at that moment.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26628427172451433602011-07-30T05:32:14.872-04:002011-07-30T05:32:14.872-04:00The Inklings read their works aloud to each other ...The Inklings read their works aloud to each other in The Eagle and Child in Oxford. LotR was written to be read - or at least intimately tied to reading.<br />[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inklings]Anselynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08948596753385162264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62727730897910398032011-07-29T16:26:59.707-04:002011-07-29T16:26:59.707-04:00>if Aragorn is THAT dangerous to them that they...>if Aragorn is THAT dangerous to them that they dare not try, why Aragorn< <br /><br />In the books a frail chick with zero battle ground experience defeats a nazgul (at fuller strength than the Weathertop encounter) and it's mount pretty handily. So once again your observations fall flat as a Hobbits pancake breakfast. <br /><br />Bitch about and be embittered by the movies all you want. It was not only great entertainment, but it brought millions of people to the books who might never had even heard of them, and out of the hands of fantasy dorks. That they upped the action and cut back the dialogue will never erase that fact. Some of us like that they kept the heart and soul of the saga,and care not for niggling details that you somehow have the time to pick apart. Personally, I can enjoy the books and the movies as two different things. But I'm cool like that :)Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13730771375629420792011-07-28T16:55:05.764-04:002011-07-28T16:55:05.764-04:00I'm in the middle of this same project, myself...I'm in the middle of this same project, myself. I read HOBBIT aloud to my 9-year-old daughter this past autumn into winter, proceeded to FELLOWSHIP this spring into summer, and we're working through TWO TOWERS now. HOBBIT was particularly fun to read aloud; you can tell that is sprang from the stories he'd tell his children. It is playful and cunning in wordplay, while LOTR is more sober and literary. My 9yo is absolutely hooked.Eridanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15124887652011524624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42437294703319299782011-07-28T08:39:31.424-04:002011-07-28T08:39:31.424-04:00Add me to the "read it to the wife" club...Add me to the "read it to the wife" club. I didn't realize there were so many of us. I do do the voices, though.<br /><br />"The Weathertop scene was an exciting action scene (needed in the film at that point),"<br /><br />Oh, right. You must have seen a different film from the one I saw. It left the audience in no doubt that the nazgul were a bunch of clowns of no significance. The book version would have worked much better on screen that it did in the book even, as the scene in the book leans heavily on the visual effects of the uncloaked nazgul against the starry background and the fire.<br /><br />But a bad film is a bad film without any need to compare it to its source material and in truth the Weathertop scene has problems in the book which mostly stem from JRRT's lack of personal clarity about who or what the back riders were when he constructed the scene initially. I think it could have taken a bit of revision myself. The visuals that Tolkien describes are scary and that maybe carries the reader over the problems the first time, but on a second reading almost everyone wonders exactly why the nazgul don't finish the party off or, if Aragorn is THAT dangerous to them that they dare not try, why Aragorn doesn't simply walk to mount doom with the ring and leave poor old Frodo out of it all. Being a ranger and all, he would seem to be a good choice anyway.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11894617533323261212011-07-27T23:02:05.093-04:002011-07-27T23:02:05.093-04:00I also read it to my wife. I used to read to her ...I also read it to my wife. I used to read to her every night. I was going to do 3 of the classics, Hobbit/LOTR, followed by the Foundation trilogy and then Dune; I called it completing her SFI classical education. She could not stand Asimov (I found it pretty juvenile myself, which shocked me since I had re-read it as an adult, though not in many years.) so we switched to Mary Stewart’s Crystal Cave books, which I love nearly as much as Tolkien, but had a baby part way through so that ended (for now). Anyway. LOVE Tolkien’s dialog, it’s my favorite part.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11656554193044378009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18101145479723539962011-07-26T19:40:44.593-04:002011-07-26T19:40:44.593-04:00Re: Fangorn, humor was an integral part of medieva...Re: Fangorn, humor was an integral part of medieval taletelling, even in the Nordic lands.<br /><br />And there's nothing dumbed down about Fangorn. It's a very thoughtful piece of writing, tackling a very interesting writing problem, with a lot of pointed comments in it and a great deal of beauty. One of my favorite parts, in fact.<br /><br />One of the great strengths of British fantasy as a whole is the ability to shift tone and thus strengthen the overall effect. Diana Wynne Jones' great essay on Tolkien's theory of composition and what she learned from taking a class from him, talks a lot about this -- how you make the motifs safer and gentler at first, and then wilder and stronger later on; or you do it once humorously and another time horrifyingly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60436497202224658592011-07-26T19:22:27.615-04:002011-07-26T19:22:27.615-04:00that said, I'll be honest and say that I grow ...that said, I'll be honest and say that I grow tired of the regular implication from the films' defenders that only anal retentive pedants could find serious fault with them<<br /><br /><br />Didn't know you were getting pounded in that regard James, and I'm not sure that is what I said. Look at it this way - as a lifelong comic book fan, I've known since the 1970's Spider-Man series (ugh, with "Larry Tate" from Bewitched as JJ Jameson) that movies and shows based on beloved properties were created to break the hearts of fans. Until the Tim Burton Batman film (highly dated an flawed now, but a fans delight when it came out) all we had was the first Superman film. Anyway, maybe we comic geeks are battle hardened in that regard, and we are just happy when they make a good film about our beloved icons, even if liberties are taken. The fact that I finally came to grips with Spider-Man shooting actual webs from his wrists instead of a gadget means I can accept and even enjoy these changes to some degree, while at the same time being annoyed by them. I'm sure you feel that sometimes as well. Although, uh, yeah I do think you can be a little anal retentive sometimes ;)Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64211718633148249912011-07-26T17:42:44.181-04:002011-07-26T17:42:44.181-04:00One bit Jackson did keep verbatim was Theoden'...One bit Jackson did keep verbatim was Theoden's speech to the Riders of Rohan just before they charge at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. In fact I think most of Theoden's speeches in the film come straight from the book, and Bernard Hill makes them sound pretty grand stuff. But then Hill has played Shakespeare, including Macbeth, and I suspect had more of an idea how to give archaic sounding dialogue a bit of gumption than some of the more 'filmy' members of the cast who are more used to doing TV. And Tolkien stuck closest to his Norse/Anglo-Saxon Saga source material when writing those speeches - that verse spoken before the battle could have come straight from Beowulf. Dare I say it, but the book comes off weakest when it is 'dumbing down' this archaic tone of fantasy for modern readers (Old Forest, Fangorn), and the films do worst when dumbing down the dumbed down bits even further to make allowances for the short attention spans of cinema goers.Baz Blatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09661154817910604866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55716630779274300962011-07-26T15:35:37.899-04:002011-07-26T15:35:37.899-04:00I tried reading The Hobbit to my wife at night dur...I tried reading <i>The Hobbit</i> to my wife at night during the later months of her pregnancy a few years ago while she was very uncomfortable, partly to help her relax, and partly because she's never read it (nor the LOTR books - she's only seen the movies). Apparently my goal at helping her relax worked too well, because she usually was able to fall asleep after only about 10 minutes or less. We didn't get very far. :)<br /><br />I'm looking forward to reading it to my daughter when she's a bit older.Martin R. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11672657745232101753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55040030704173801842011-07-26T14:54:26.445-04:002011-07-26T14:54:26.445-04:00Reading LotR with different character voices was h...Reading LotR with different character voices was half the fun for me. I especially enjoyed realizing my boys could distinguish Shagrat from Gorbag, and the gasps when "Sharkey" reveals himself at Bag End.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08868302412533031659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65618749059705924252011-07-26T14:38:22.397-04:002011-07-26T14:38:22.397-04:00"At the confrontation between Eowyn and the L..."At the confrontation between Eowyn and the Lord of the Nazgul, they pretty much took the encounter from Tolkien's pages, and it sounded the better for it (including the so-cool 'foul dwimmerlaik)."<br /><br />The movie tie-in video game did this also and it similarly sounded better than the film.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14624614486574035692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71342935299358326312011-07-26T11:10:12.996-04:002011-07-26T11:10:12.996-04:00I don't know him, but of the posters here Mich...I don't know him, but of the posters here Michael nailed it 100 %. The middle-earth is a much scarier place than the films depict. It is mostly a wild, empty place filled with scary things. The films lost much of the horror.<br /><br />...and also the wonder I think. Because do you really think elves are only fake blondes? Is that all to them? Is Galadriel only Cate Blanchett? She is good-looking, but can she truly reflect Galadriel. <br /><br />Unfortunately the movies locked the envisioning of these characters for a long time. Wraiths should have been scarier, elves should have been more wondrous & ethereal and maybe Aragorn could have been...<br /><br /> http://archives.theonering.net/movie/cast/townsend.htmlMurat Başekimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04048841259995274122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58499278182612204872011-07-26T11:07:10.521-04:002011-07-26T11:07:10.521-04:00Tolkien always struck me as high fantasy more so d...Tolkien always struck me as high fantasy more so due to the inner workings of his world and how most of his characters are influenced by it rather than an abundance of magic. <br />Contrast Middle-Earth's inherent forces of good and evil to Howard, Smith and Leiber's more apathetic worlds.Uffishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02407292491903662515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54125710123719122622011-07-26T11:03:41.140-04:002011-07-26T11:03:41.140-04:00My father read the Hobbit to us one warm summer lo...My father read the Hobbit to us one warm summer long, long ago, weather rather like this in fact. Then when he finished it he dived straight into the Lord of the Rings. I suspect my brother is considering doing the same soon with his daughter who is 6½.Michael Blairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13707913126319591535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42412266806503505702011-07-26T10:52:58.005-04:002011-07-26T10:52:58.005-04:00The unabridged audio books are also well worth a l...The unabridged audio books are also well worth a listen. Bob Ingles gives an excellent solo performance.arcadaynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17025690624100512801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57974395936193086582011-07-26T09:52:26.848-04:002011-07-26T09:52:26.848-04:00Count me among the number who's read it to his...Count me among the number who's read it to his wife as well :)<br /><br />Definitely the best way to experience the books. We did The Hobbit too, before the trilogy (of course), not more than a year or so ago.Taketoshihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876641059472816784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43348437060728494882011-07-26T08:44:36.768-04:002011-07-26T08:44:36.768-04:00"So are you doing the funny voices or not? :)..."So are you doing the funny voices or not? :)<br /><br />No, I'm not,"<br /><br /><br />Though I can't help but slow down whenever I read the chapter on Treebeard.David Griffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06629314279592541401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49510678276901859342011-07-26T08:40:31.192-04:002011-07-26T08:40:31.192-04:00Like the Jovial Priest, I read it to my wife when ...Like the Jovial Priest, I read it to my wife when we were first married. I had read it before (and continue to do so today), but was stunned at how well it read out loud. I think it's not so much a magical world, as a mythical one. There's magic all around since, in the ancient myths, that was part of the world. But it's not 'here's the natural world, and there's magic.' It was all part and parcel of the whole Created order. <br /><br />FWIW, I also lamented Jackson leaving out much of Tolkien's dialogue when it could have helped. I saw the old Rankin and Bass Return of the King not long ago (I know), and was taken by the attempts to keep his dialogue in place at key moments. At the confrontation between Eowyn and the Lord of the Nazgul, they pretty much took the encounter from Tolkien's pages, and it sounded the better for it (including the so-cool 'foul dwimmerlaik). <br /><br />But the thing I like about Tolkien's creation is how he takes it all for granted. It's as if he's not writing a fantasy, but just telling how it happened in a world that seems real on its own.David Griffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06629314279592541401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30071894111930365032011-07-26T08:30:29.748-04:002011-07-26T08:30:29.748-04:00What I most appreciate about this post and the acc...What I most appreciate about this post and the accopanying comments is the subtle rejection of the sloppy formulation that Tolkien = "high fantasy" = "lots of magic." <br /><br />Recently a friend offered his theory that "Star Wars ruined movies," his rationale being that today, movies are marketed to kids-- they rely heavily on special effects and a steady flow of choreographed action sequences. And the movie is ultimately just an advertisement for toys and happy meals. So don't blame Peter Jackson, blame George Lucas.<br /><br />word verification: parynann: one who needlessly stirs up the embers of an argument when the conversation has moved on to a more congenial subjectBrian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73155239422120626662011-07-26T04:55:44.406-04:002011-07-26T04:55:44.406-04:00the timelines didn't seem to make any sense.
...<i>the timelines didn't seem to make any sense.</i><br /><br />In what way?Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58876641649754668822011-07-26T03:56:17.283-04:002011-07-26T03:56:17.283-04:00I'm reading it aloud to my wife and I'm ta...I'm reading it aloud to my wife and I'm taken with how good it sounds aloud. Since I first read it thirty-five years ago I've re-read it countless times and I always find something new, or at least forgotten enough to seem new, but this is the first time I've encountered the beauty of the sounds of his words.<br /><br /> As to the old bugaboo of the movies versus books - my wife who'd only read the books once utterly hated the movies for their almost gleeful changes to the characterization of Gandalf and Aragorn in particular. I, at least with FotR, was initially happy to see "beloved characters, places and things" depicted on the screen.<br /><br /> Eventually her arguments started to make sense. Why should Aragorn be so conflicted? Why would Frodo turn on Same? And so on.<br /><br /> All the problems I had, and by the TTT they were piling up fast and furiously, finally overwhelmed any goodwill I retained for the films. I can't go back and watch them anymore.The Wasphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08636805818054637966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33546709414640789922011-07-26T03:07:37.629-04:002011-07-26T03:07:37.629-04:00"it's a well constructed world"
It ..."it's a well constructed world"<br /><br />It 'feels' natural/real, I think. I was a bit shocked though when I dug down into the history of Arnor, Osgiliath, and the Line of Isildur and found that the timelines didn't seem to make any sense.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.com