tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1257729516799046882..comments2024-03-19T07:16:47.924-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Continuity and Tradition, Part IIJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74185752808288415032008-09-03T16:11:00.000-04:002008-09-03T16:11:00.000-04:00Although Moldvay and Mentzer are, for some people,...<I>Although Moldvay and Mentzer are, for some people, too far from “old school” to qualify.</I><BR/><BR/>While I'm one of those people, I'd be vastly more happy to see kids with Moldvay or Mentzer as their entry into the hobby than I would be to see them pick up 4e. Whatever the flaws of those editions, they're nothing compared to the alternatives.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52228201352463572062008-09-03T16:02:00.000-04:002008-09-03T16:02:00.000-04:00Reprint the Moldvay or Mentzer basic sets, get it ...Reprint the Moldvay or Mentzer basic sets, get it on the shelves of Target and Wal-Mart, and I’m betting you could make a profit.<BR/><BR/>There’s not been any huge change in the world that would prevent them from being any worse for new gamers today than they were then. (I don’t buy the “can’t compete with computer/video games” angle, and I think the “fad” nature of D&D then was more of a bonus than a necessity.)<BR/><BR/>Maybe give it a bit of a facelift and a modest amount of smart marketing, and you could have a hit. I wouldn’t be surprised if it would sell as well as the 4e PHB, which is neither as accessible or enough to play that evening.<BR/><BR/>Although Moldvay and Mentzer are, for some people, too far from “old school” to qualify.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58757873987309587392008-09-03T13:03:00.000-04:002008-09-03T13:03:00.000-04:00Mr. Wyatt makes it clear that, while he remembers ...<I>Mr. Wyatt makes it clear that, while he remembers the broad outlines of the module, he never really understood the reasons behind its contents and presentation.</I><BR/><BR/>Most of them at WoTC are the same. Bunch of ***kers without historical knowledge of this hobby (most of them - as I said). <BR/><BR/>Maybe in a matter - "Oh, we don't have any good ideas for next months to publish! Let's see some good ol' books of the past. Rip out previous, not-clear-and-clever-now overall context and voila!". OD&D is, by definition, not for them. <BR/><BR/>I think I'll construct (in my OD&D campaign) something like unstoppable, huge, ever-spinning barrel - <I>a metaphor</I> of WoTC crew - full of neanderthal looking EHPs. Unholy symbol will be a big golden "$" mark on tunics and shields. Bah, I'll even break 3LBB style and give them chance to take Thief class - Name level at start. <BR/><BR/>Cheers<BR/>JAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26303251810926351452008-09-03T10:13:00.000-04:002008-09-03T10:13:00.000-04:00I think there is a hidden "old school mode" in 4e....<I>I think there is a hidden "old school mode" in 4e.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm certain that the designers think there is, but in my opinion it's a very stylized one based on a shallow understanding of the old school. It's more akin to the way that "retro" is used by a lot of people -- a caricature of the past rather than an actual appreciation of its virtues.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90682874262218573642008-09-03T09:27:00.000-04:002008-09-03T09:27:00.000-04:00I agree that the designers are not being allowed t...I agree that the designers are not being allowed to go retro. There are a lot of sendups to Necromancer Games efforts in the books if you know where to look, and I think there is a hidden "old school mode" in 4e. I think that everytime they say "or you could do it this way" they really mean "for old school do it this way" Take for example the talk on being a referee. At first you think Wyatt is saying "you are not a referee, but by the end of it you feel like you are being encouraged to be one. The fact that the word Referee even shows up in the DMG indicates to me a cry for help.Steamtunnelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02597332921872904036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35753631576514812562008-09-03T09:21:00.000-04:002008-09-03T09:21:00.000-04:00I personally believe that WotC RnD are unable to d...I personally believe that WotC RnD are unable to do so because, uh, some, people out there in our hobby don't have maps and, uh, I believe that our, uh, education like such as, uh, Hardby and, uh, the Pomarj, everywhere like such as, and, I believe that they should, our education over here in the hobby should help the hobby, uh, or, uh, should help WotC and should help the Pomarj and the Forgotten Realms, so we will be able to build up our future, for our children.Steamtunnelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02597332921872904036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51068289757231196322008-09-03T08:10:00.000-04:002008-09-03T08:10:00.000-04:00I believe your suggestion is covered by "understoo...<I>I believe your suggestion is covered by "understood and cared, but did not incorporate this understanding/care into the final product."</I><BR/><BR/>Fair enough.<BR/><BR/><I>The commercial viability of old school is an interesting issue. I think it would be commercially viable for a well marketed entry game, and unviable for the "milk existing fans for what they are worth" strategy.</I><BR/><BR/>I think you're right. Certainly an old school RPG doesn't make a good foundation for a "brand," which is all that matters in the industry today.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50246471762517168162008-09-03T08:00:00.000-04:002008-09-03T08:00:00.000-04:00I believe your suggestion is covered by "understoo...I believe your suggestion is covered by "understood and cared, but did not incorporate this understanding/care into the final product."<BR/><BR/>The commercial viability of old school is an interesting issue. I think it would be commercially viable for a well marketed entry game, and unviable for the "milk existing fans for what they are worth" strategy.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83225041739765658972008-09-03T07:41:00.000-04:002008-09-03T07:41:00.000-04:00Obvious and blatant namedropping of D&D's ...<I>Obvious and blatant namedropping of D&D's past aside, the text of the 4e rulebooks indicates that the designers either failed to understand old school D&D, did not care about what they found there, or understood and cared, but did not incorporate this understanding/care into the final product.</I><BR/><BR/>The other possibility, and a likely one, is that the designers (some of them anyway) understand the old school but, for reasons of commerce, couldn't allow that understanding to inform the design of the new except in the most superficial ways. As I delve more and more into this, it's pretty clear that the old school isn't very commercially viable, at least not if your goal is to sell millions of copies and justify your continued existence to a multi-billion dollar a year toy company.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54810555973969145612008-09-03T05:29:00.000-04:002008-09-03T05:29:00.000-04:00This is the point where your comments about lookin...This is the point where your comments about looking deeper at old school than formal matters and trade dress start to ring true. Obvious and blatant namedropping of D&D's past aside, the text of the 4e rulebooks indicates that the designers either failed to understand old school D&D, did not <I>care</I> about what they found there, or understood and cared, but did not incorporate this understanding/care into the final product.<BR/><BR/>Some elements of 4e appear more old school than the last few editions. The Pyramid of Shadows has received favourable reviews from people I consider informed about old school gaming... yet when I read the excerpt about the elf head that plays a prominent role in the module, it felt wrong, all wrong - aesthetically, mechanically, and in DMing style. The basic concept was excellent (so excellent that I had written something damn similar for <B>Fight On! #2</B>), but the actualisation - very much not. The sanitisation is a vital part of my disappointment, but far from the only one.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.com