tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post125919141449463568..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Attitudes Toward DiceJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86985673005628621912010-02-28T13:57:41.920-05:002010-02-28T13:57:41.920-05:00Actually, I've got to apologize for my comment...Actually, I've got to apologize for my comment 2 steps up, it was overly snide and Norman had a reasonable textual point on the DMG. <br /><br />While I tend to mentally focus on passages like, "Now and then a player will die through no fault of his own... In the long run you should let such things pass as the players will kill more than one opponent with their own freakish rolls at some later time," (DMG p. 110), on further reflection it appears true that more ink is spilled in the DMG on opportunities to fudge things than otherwise.<br /><br />And truthfully, I think that's a mistake (i.e., one of those Gygax-AD&D-off-the-rails issues). In retrospect I think that opens the door to far too much wasted mental energy: "When do I start? When do I stop? How much is too much? What counts as 'do something stupid' to warrant player character death?"Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58925573193302914492010-02-28T13:48:56.202-05:002010-02-28T13:48:56.202-05:00The mantra I used to repeat over at ENWorld was &q...The mantra I used to repeat over at ENWorld was "Don't roll a dice unless you are willing to pay the price." Indispensable bit of game wisdom AFAIAC.CaesarSlaadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04427345374032382905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9131753796336883042010-02-27T14:33:52.128-05:002010-02-27T14:33:52.128-05:00Norman: Really? You're going to quote module X...Norman: Really? You're going to quote module X1 as an example of a "core rulebook"? :)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78031329551854059072010-02-27T12:12:53.283-05:002010-02-27T12:12:53.283-05:00If something in a game could be left up to the GM&...If something in a game could be left up to the GM's discretion <i>anyway</i> but they either aren't good at or don't want to improvise and choose to roll on some table ("is this door locked or not?" etc) then I think it's a waste of time doing that and then "fudging" the result, but ultimately it doesn't really matter too much. <br /><br />If it's something the players assume is being done fairly and is entirely dependent on the game's rules and a dice roll (attack, damage, saves, etc) then things start breaking down if the GM isn't playing honestly. How much it breaks down depends on the group and individuals.<br /><br />As for the primacy of gaming advice in various RPG... there's a lot of fantastic things in the books (new and old) but there's also some not-so-good stuff as well. Any advice that someone at the table should pretend that they're following the rules of a game but secretly they don't... that's a really poor game design pattern.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42453675841593412802010-02-27T11:02:26.974-05:002010-02-27T11:02:26.974-05:00You've addressed the parts of the comment in r...<i>You've addressed the parts of the comment in response to Noism's rulebook claim but have ignored my questions as to where this grey line of "ok to Fudge" / "not ok to Fudge" lies for the non-fudging, objective DM.</i><br /><br>For me, the line is drawn at the table. I don't fudge dice once my players and I sit at the table together and start playing. For me, it's at least partially a matter of courtesy: if a player fudges his dice rolls, we generally call that cheating, right? I think the same thing applies to referees, even when doing so goes against the players. It's the referee's job to be impartial, after all.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74625388187522257872010-02-27T10:43:55.616-05:002010-02-27T10:43:55.616-05:00@James you did not read my post very clearly (or I...@James you did not read my post very clearly (or I wrote it very confusingly).<br /><br /><br />First I agree with you (and Noisms) as far as fudging dice go as I stated in last post. I disagree (strongly) with Noisms claims that the books tell us Fudging is wrong. I strongly disagree that there is one or a right way to play. <br /><br /><br />> Neither my post nor that of Noisms invoked Gygax or any other illustrious name<br /><br />Yeah, <b>neither did I</b>. Noisms <b>brought up rulebooks</b> Not me. I simply provided examples that contradicted Noisms claims as to what they said. I mentioned sources NOT AUTHORS. [I didn't even mention what edition of DMG So, you either recognized the passage, the writing style or made educated guess.]<br /><br /><br />You've addressed the parts of the comment in response to Noism's rulebook claim but have ignored my questions as to where this grey line of "ok to Fudge" / "not ok to Fudge" lies for the non-fudging, objective DM.Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85230250602096721752010-02-27T08:50:58.077-05:002010-02-27T08:50:58.077-05:00considering the post that follows this one, it see...considering the post that follows this one, it seems kind of relevant to me...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31831829320999050152010-02-27T08:10:16.358-05:002010-02-27T08:10:16.358-05:00But, once again, people are suffering selective me...<i>But, once again, people are suffering selective memory and/or practicing historic revisionism.</i><br /><br>Or could it be that some of us are explicitly rejecting exactly the kind of advice Gygax is offering up in the DMG? I won't speak for anyone else, but I know I am. In case you hadn't noticed, I'm deeply ambivalent about <i>AD&D</i> and consider it to have canonized many trends I dislike in gaming, including the notion of the referee as a narrator or storyteller. I prefer a (generally) more objective role for the referee and letting the dice fall where they may in play is an important part of that.<br /><br />I certainly make no claim that this approach is "truer" or "better" than any other. Nor do I claim the authority of Gygaxian Holy Writ to support it. Indeed, I readily acknowledge that my approach is contrary to what Gygax wrote in many places throughout the 1e era, including in the DMG. That's not revisionism; that's me saying that, much as I admired the man and honor his memory, I still often disagree with him. I suspect I'm not alone in feeling this way.<br /><br />It's funny, because normally old school bloggers get slammed because we've supposedly made an idol out of Gary. Now we're getting hit because we're not being sufficiently deferential to what wrote in various places. Neither my post nor that of Noisms invoked Gygax or any other illustrious name to support our opinions, so, disagree with our positions all you like, but why start quoting chapter and verse to us? I'm not sure how that's relevant.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11160680873476025082010-02-27T05:03:01.553-05:002010-02-27T05:03:01.553-05:00Norman Harman, I argued the toss (ha) over at Nois...Norman Harman, I argued the toss (ha) over at Noisms with those quotes from the DMG etc. in mind, and it's nice to see someone quoting them back. I have a strong memory of the DMG and <i>Dragon</i> magazine telling me quite explicitly the dice were mine to command, not vice versa. And I've never received complaints from players - not in 25 years - for using my judgement to make the game more fun when the dice tell me it won't be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51155179994074057732010-02-27T00:05:15.091-05:002010-02-27T00:05:15.091-05:00> use of dice during active gameplay.
What? No...> use of dice during active gameplay.<br /><br />What? No random charts are used during game play? Wandering monsters aren't rolled for during active game play?<br /><br />> there's a strong argument, again bolstered by the core rulebooks, for letting the dice fall where they may.<br /><br />Actually, DM intervention and fiat are taught.<br /><br />From X1<br />"The DM should use logic when rolling wandering monsters. If the monster rolled is highly unlikely for the terrain type (for example, a plesiosaurus in a non-lake hex) the DM should either roll again or choose a different wandering monster. If the monster is either much too strong or much too weak for the party, the DM may change the number appearing or the monster's hit point sto provide a suitable challenge for the party.<br /><br />From DMG<br />"They are willing to accept the hazards of the dice, be it loss of items,<br />wounding, insanity, disease, death, as long as the process is exciting. But<br />lo!, everytime you throw the ”monster die” o wandering nasty is indi-<br />cated, and the party’s strength is spent trying to fight their way into the<br />area. Spells expended, battered and wounded, the characters trek back to<br />their base. Expectations have been dashed, and probably interest too, by<br />random chance. Rather than spoil such an otherwise enjoyable time, omit<br />the wandering monsters indicated by the die"<br /><br />Also from that august tome.<br />"In closing this discussion, simply keep in mind that the dice are your tools."<br /><br />DM's <b>tools</b>, not the DM's master.<br /><br /><br />I'm actually in the roll in the open don't fudge camp (and also in the pych out fake roll camp). But, once again, people are suffering selective memory and/or practicing historic revisionism.<br /><br /><br />> I distinguish between "minor" and "major" uses of dice, if that makes sense, and I try very hard never to fudge major uses of them.<br /><br />Stronger argument, (and the one I see the rules actually promoting). But, how do you decide what is minor and major? Is fudging encounter roll cause party is so beat up it can't handle fight, major? What about changing results from orcs to something interesting cause been fighting orcs all day? <br /><br />Is not fudging a treasure roll that would give character gamebreaking powerful magic major? <br /><br />Is not open doors attempt vs door to empty room minor?<br /><br />Different DM's judge major/minor differently and thus you get a spectrum of when they fudge.Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57129439659493017482010-02-26T16:01:14.619-05:002010-02-26T16:01:14.619-05:00"If the players put their characters in a sit..."If the players put their characters in a situation where a single element of bad luck kills their characters then they have come up with a bad plan. If the gamemaster forces them to do so, then they have come up with a bad adventure. Similarly if an entire epic quest hinges on a single dice roll, this is also an element of bad design. If the element involved is vital to the quest there should be no chance of failure in obtaining it and thus the dice shouldn't be rolled"<br /><br />I think this sums it up. <br /><br />I get that some GMs-groups-campaigns have evolved to the point where fudging, for the purposes of avoiding not-fun outcomes, has become embedded in the expected conventions of play. In these groups, failure to fudge in the expected circumstances amounts to a breach of trust.<br /><br />I'll always defend each individual groups' right to find their own truth. Who am I to know what's fun for some other group and what won't be? I can't.<br /><br />But to me, allowing yourself the option of fudging means you're denying yourself an opportunity to become a better GM. If your game hits a flat spot because of a bad roll/s, that tells you something if you'll let it. It tells you that either a) those rolls shouldn't have been made, or b) you should have been better prepared for them going bad.<br /><br />And maybe next time you face a similar situation you'll handle it so that it ain't no-fun. It might even be the highlight of the night.charles mark fergusonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13385121479729236749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44439979380987304822010-02-26T15:51:32.229-05:002010-02-26T15:51:32.229-05:00I think the "distinction" mentioned abov...I think the "distinction" mentioned above is just the classic issue of the DM having multiple jobs: (1) Pre-game setting up adventures and campaigns; (2) In-game acting as referee an adjudicator. <br /><br />In case (1) setting up dungeons is obviously, and explicitly in the books, a combination of DM creativity and dice-rolls to jog the imagination. In case (2) there's a strong argument, again bolstered by the core rulebooks, for letting the dice fall where they may.<br /><br />Obviously James is, correctly, talking about <i>use of dice during active gameplay</i>.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68496101647679697822010-02-26T09:39:45.195-05:002010-02-26T09:39:45.195-05:00To expand just a bit on Ed Ross's "psycho...To expand just a bit on Ed Ross's "psychology" answer, sometimes you want to create tension for the players even when you don't get to experience it yourself. Obviously, over-using this device could render it pointless, but I would still argue that it can be useful to let the players think that an outcome you planned all along is happening at random.Christina Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05129618630890394036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78885201861505594862010-02-26T06:00:17.971-05:002010-02-26T06:00:17.971-05:00As James says, it's important to distinguish b...As James says, it's important to distinguish between dice rolls which have different sorts of consequences - i.e. between those which pertain to character action and those which don't. (James calls them minor and major uses of the dice. Sounds like good descriptors to me.)<br /><br />Fudging I would argue is always wrong, but there are lesser degrees of wrongness. If you fudge on a random treasure generation table it's a minor use of the dice and hence a minor wrong (and one you might be comfortable with), but fudging saves is a major wrong and should be avoided at all times.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24465927851203018962010-02-26T05:54:02.434-05:002010-02-26T05:54:02.434-05:00I also roll my dice out in the open, in a clear pl...I also roll my dice out in the open, in a clear plastic tray that everyone can see into. It solves so many issues when the players know that you are a fair DM; that you don't cheat them... and if a series of 20s are rolled they know it wasn't made up!Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51659550349246731322010-02-26T04:50:08.506-05:002010-02-26T04:50:08.506-05:00Fudge the dice? FUDGE THE DICE??? By God, that i...Fudge the dice? FUDGE THE DICE??? By God, that is just, un-American.<br /><br />But seriously. Use 'em or don't use 'em. Don't namby-pamby the results you don't like.Andrew Logan Montgomeryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16862829026060203177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60524360837931098522010-02-25T23:08:43.544-05:002010-02-25T23:08:43.544-05:00Good advice. I also roll die openly, & let th...Good advice. I also roll die openly, & let them lay as they may, be it for good or bad. I don't fudge any die roll that pertains to the fate of a PC, whether it's to their benefit or not. To me, it always seemed a wee unfair. <br /><br />Now if I sense a player is having a rough patch of luck, I might choose to give him a break - but I always choose to do so without the use of dice. My philosophy: Once they're rolled, that's it. Accept what the dice reveal & move on. On the extremely rare occasion I'm on the other side of the table, I'm known for rolling some of the most god-awful character stats anyone could ever have - regardless of game.<br /><br />As for random tables, I'm an admitted control freak when designing an adventure. The only tables I randomly roll on are treasure tables, & wandering monster tables of my own design. Everything else I pick & choose at my leisure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64788323993851491992010-02-25T22:40:57.379-05:002010-02-25T22:40:57.379-05:00The only rolls I used to keep hidden were for stuf...The only rolls I used to keep hidden were for stuff that the character's couldn't be sure about.<br /><br />But then when I started playing open secrets (where the players know the dire and terrible secrets of the other characters and can play to them), it made sense that I should also trust my players to react appropriately when the dice revealed the discovery of a secret door that wasn't there (or the failure to discover a secret door that may have been there).<br /><br />If the players put their characters in a situation where a single element of bad luck kills their characters then they have come up with a bad plan. If the gamemaster forces them to do so, then they have come up with a bad adventure. Similarly if an entire epic quest hinges on a single dice roll, this is also an element of bad design. If the element involved is vital to the quest there should be no chance of failure in obtaining it and thus the dice shouldn't be rolled, any more than the dice should be rolled for walking across a smooth floor.<br /><br />And sometimes ignoble deaths happen. To quote a notable bard of yore, those sling's and arrows of outrageous fortune sometime hurt. It makes the heroic deaths mean something more. [But given the advantages that player characters have over non-player characters in most games this means the player got out of his or her character's depth.]<br /><br />Remember that when the Lady turns Her face from you, it is probably an omen that it was a bad idea in the first place, and you should run away and try something else. Of course, if you only have a single story track planned this may not be possible. But then why aren't you just reading your players a story?<br /><br />As Donagar would say, "May the Lady go with you!"Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54050683975052787882010-02-25T22:10:00.440-05:002010-02-25T22:10:00.440-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77037927885021152782010-02-25T22:09:43.111-05:002010-02-25T22:09:43.111-05:00I game with my kids a lot right now, and I do fudg...<i>I game with my kids a lot right now, and I do fudge the rolls from time to time- but I try to avoid rolling in critical situations. I don't need to make my 6 year old cry, really.</i><br /><br />Yeah, I can see that. If I were gaming with children, or perhaps demoing a game I might treat things differently. It would be the same if I was playing some other type of tabletop game.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57050956258873066632010-02-25T22:02:36.651-05:002010-02-25T22:02:36.651-05:00I game with my kids a lot right now, and I do fudg...I game with my kids a lot right now, and I do fudge the rolls from time to time- but I try to avoid rolling in critical situations. I don't need to make my 6 year old cry, really.<br />with adults I roll in the open, although I am fond of a "one reroll per session, per player" kind of rule it helps to keep folks from turteling up.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79562702853645945182010-02-25T21:58:44.047-05:002010-02-25T21:58:44.047-05:00Well, I have another use for dice that doesn't...Well, I have another use for dice that doesn't involve a definite outcome by its score. Psychology. I roll the dice behind the screen, nod or seem interested in the result, and tell the player everything is quite and come- or say nothing at all. It freaks them out everytime. Meanwhile, I rolled for no other reason than to mess with their minds. Is a random monster lurking just around the corner, or worse? Not really. What did I roll, it did not matter in this case. Recommended for COC or horror-like sections of any D&D game.Ed Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04069918557904273756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44100860489480535882010-02-25T21:05:41.770-05:002010-02-25T21:05:41.770-05:00"What do you think about systems that allow p..."What do you think about systems that allow players to "force" a fudge? Like fate points that the player spends to make the DM reroll a result, for instance."<br /><br />But those are defnitively not fudging, they're just another resource, except out-of-character. Might as well call them a "potion of defense" or something.<br /><br />As I wrote a year ago: <a href="http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2009/04/on-action-points.html" rel="nofollow">http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2009/04/on-action-points.html</a>Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39253312372269753692010-02-25T21:05:14.274-05:002010-02-25T21:05:14.274-05:00Hey James,
A great topic, and thanks for bringin...Hey James,<br /> A great topic, and thanks for bringing it up. I think people always have to remember that it is just a game, and if some-one is occasionally fudging their dice, well thats their perigative. I think that they can get defensive sometimes, because there are times when it comes across that if you don't follow all the dice rolls (or if you don't constantly rely on random tables) your playing a lesser game. I'm not implying you btw but sometimes others can come across a little that way.<br /> For myself, I love random tabels less for the randomness though, and more for the ideas they provide. I think I use them like some other people have mentioned..see what the dice say, and then mayybeee change it if I thought a different result would be interesting to explore, or would be more appropriate given the situation. <br /> As for combat rolls, only when I was young, I still don't know exactly why? Although to be honest I'm soon starting a game for all new players soon, and it will be tempting to give them second chances to keep them alive a little longer...but I swear i will try to resist the urge to fudge.<br /><br />word verification: subeat....now I want some subway dammit.Regamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14568470239734853393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27064341182376011822010-02-25T20:59:52.256-05:002010-02-25T20:59:52.256-05:00I'm coming around to the roll-dice-in-the-open...I'm coming around to the roll-dice-in-the-open philosophy. Not something I wanted to be dogmatic about -- a logistical problem in the past was needing to have the screen up to hide maps, monster rosters, combat tables, etc. As I get to a point where I can run most of my gaming just mentally, that goes away, and I find myself just accidentally with no screen and thus rolling in the open. <br /><br />I find it actually takes a lot of the burden off my shoulders as DM. No mental energy tied up in "fudge this one, not that one, how much, how many hp does the fighter have left, what's a reasonable faux number that would be believable, etc., etc." It makes it more lightweight, fun, in-the-moment.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.com