tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1260936285661113922..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Uh ... noJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14898401684910451842011-07-17T01:31:02.302-04:002011-07-17T01:31:02.302-04:00@BigFella
Actually, despite not being mentioned i...<b>@BigFella</b><br /><br />Actually, despite not being mentioned in the book, Legolas <i>will</i> be in <i>The Hobbit</i>, as will Frodo and Galadriel too.<br /><br />I'm guessing that Legolas and Galadriel will be in Mirkwood, and that Legolas probably will take part in The Battle Of Five Armies too.<br /><br />Because Ian Holm is set to appear as "Old Bilbo", my best guess as to how they'll work Frodo in, considering that he wasn't even born when the events of <i>The Hobbit</i> took place, is that there'll be some sort of <i>'frame'</i> in which an older Bilbo tells him the story.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71720004350112673052011-07-17T00:45:56.662-04:002011-07-17T00:45:56.662-04:00Meh. Some exec in some meeting asked "Can we ...Meh. Some exec in some meeting asked "Can we get Legolas in this movie? A certain demographic really liked Legolas, and we wanna cash in on that. Our people can call Orlando Bloom's people and make it happen." <br /><br />After several more long, drawn out, and frustrating meetings attempting to explain to said exec that no, Legolas wasn't in "The Hobbit" and a much more committed demographic wouldn't stand for that big a bending of the story, this was the compromise they probably came up with...BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6608231915271421272011-07-16T14:23:23.199-04:002011-07-16T14:23:23.199-04:00“the long-anticipated siege of Hogwarts school … g...<i>“the long-anticipated siege of Hogwarts school … gets what can only be called the Lord of the Rings treatment, with visual mayhem and character dynamics writ large.”</i><br /><br>Wow.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1682468401799490832011-07-16T07:05:31.618-04:002011-07-16T07:05:31.618-04:00Again, you need to enlighten me as to what makes a...Again, you need to enlighten me as to what makes a work literary. <br /><br />Who are these "literary critics?" I can point to Tom Shippey, scholar of medieval literature at Oxford University. Michael Drout, chair of the department of English at Wheaton College. Verlyn Flieger, Professor at the University of Maryland. Not to mention critics and authors like C.S. Lewis and W.H. Auden. Time Magazine critics Lev Grossman and Richard Lacayo released their 100 best english language novels since 1923, which included J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. <br /><br />We'll see if Madonna has a peer-reviewed academic journal being published about her songs 40 years after her death.<br /><br />What are you going to say... it's not realistic, or too "fantastic?" So now works like 1984 and Moby Dick don't qualify as literature? If you think literature must engage "reality" to be taken seriously, The Lord of the Rings can be read as a reaction to the rise of modernism, or as a commentary on the events of World War 2. It ain't just about elves and dwarves, as I'm sure a discerning reader like you knows.<br /><br />Now give me your definition of literature and we'll work from there.Brian Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05563309422791320114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27289989156062562072011-07-15T21:57:07.823-04:002011-07-15T21:57:07.823-04:00Oh please: there are college courses about Madonna...Oh please: there are college courses about Madonna for heaven's sake! Literary criticism? Most literary critics think LOTR is a joke and think the books' fans are like Trekkies -only without discerning taste. You can find endless doctoral dissertations, conferences, journal articles and so on about other bad novels and bad writers, such as:<br /><br />Ayn Rand<br />Mickey Spillane<br />L.Ron Hubbard<br />James Michener (not really a bad writer, he just wrote the same novel over and over)<br />Michael Crichton <br />Truman Capote<br />Joyce Carol Oates <br /><br />There are countless others.Elfdarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17332202910754546307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43339336360352931902011-07-14T20:56:19.708-04:002011-07-14T20:56:19.708-04:00Tolkien's books had literary merit?
Maybe you...<i>Tolkien's books had literary merit?</i><br /><br />Maybe you could enlighten us as to what constitutes "literary merit," oh warder of the gates of the English literary canon.<br /><br />I'd say a hundred or more works of literary criticism, conferences, peer-reviewed academic journals, accredited college courses, doctoral dissertations, etc., pretty much answers your question. Unless you're just trolling, as I suspect is the case.Brian Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05563309422791320114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26796936025937154522011-07-14T13:30:42.607-04:002011-07-14T13:30:42.607-04:00"Tolkien's books had literary merit?"..."Tolkien's books had literary merit?"<br /><br />Obviously not as they're enjoyable and intelligent and creative instead of being one long dirge about how awful it is to be alive.<br /><br />Anyway. The problem with a movie compared to a book is that in a book the author is actually writing the characters' names on the page when they're doing or saying things. Unless you use a bizarre type of subtitling, that's not an option. So making the dwarves look different - even to the point of making each have a clear visual "hook" - is really the only sensible way to handle so many characters in a group.<br /><br />Look at The Magnificent Seven - even there it's pretty obvious that someone was trying for visual individuality, and there's twice as many core characters in The Hobbit!<br /><br />I do think Kili has a problem in that he looks tall but it might be this photo, which actually makes his right ear look a bit elven too.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60735025037311931342011-07-14T13:13:31.691-04:002011-07-14T13:13:31.691-04:00There's a lot of 'I personally like this s...<i>There's a lot of 'I personally like this so I'll praise it and I personally don't like this so I'll insult the artists capabilities' and say that he's a 'hack' going on.</i><br /><br />No kidding! Of all the ridiculous reasons to pan a movie (putting aside that the film hasn't even been made yet), not liking the hair color of one of the actors takes the cake -and the ice cream, too.Elfdarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17332202910754546307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82937994374996237322011-07-14T13:05:32.492-04:002011-07-14T13:05:32.492-04:00Korgoth said...
This just in: Peter Jackson turns...<i>Korgoth said... <br />This just in: Peter Jackson turns Tolkien story into gonzo action flick, completely misses the point and ruins any literary merit. Film at 11. </i><br /><br />Tolkien's books had literary merit?Elfdarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17332202910754546307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86783093293660016612011-07-14T11:36:16.782-04:002011-07-14T11:36:16.782-04:00@Rick Marshall
"Emma Thompson modified Jane A...@Rick Marshall<br />"Emma Thompson modified Jane Austen's novel Sense and Sensibility when she wrote her script - she had to, since a film is not a book - but her modifications adjusted the plot to reinforce the tone, characters, and story of the novel as a film. Most of the lines she added, for example, sound very Jane Austenish."<br /><br />Interesting example, because despite critical and popular acceptance as well as awards from the Academy (all of which Jackson can claim as well) within Jane Austen fandom there is as much disagreement over Thompson's choices as there is in our geeky little world over Jackson.<br /><br />Here is a link to an essay written taking Thompson to task for her unnecessary changes that changed the tone and heart of S&S<br />http://www.theloiterer.org/ashton/dancer3.html<br /><br />Most notably a shift in the type of humor used which, at least in some opinions, changes the thematic thrust of the film entirely.<br /><br />Some of the other things that were changed that cause such a condemnation include:<br /><br />Thompson's addition of horse defecation <br /><br />a 'commotion' turning into a comedic slapstick fight<br /><br />Marianne being carried by men multiple times in unrealistic situations.<br /><br />The Palmers' being used for comedic effect in the film while they are tragic in the novel.<br /><br />The change of the nature of Middleton and Mrs. Jennings.<br /><br />The ignoring of Chapter 8 of Vol III.<br /><br />The shift of dialogue and resolution at the end subtly but significantly changes the bittersweet cynicism of the novel and replaces it with a more traditional 'chick-flick' ending.<br /><br />And here's a criticism about Ang Lee's direction of the same film:<br />"Ang Lee directed the film and perhaps he deserves some share of the disapprobation. The directing is hopeless. The worst example is a scene depicting a picnic with the Dashwood women and Willoughby. Ang Lee's Willoughby acts grotesquely, he takes liberties with Marianne's body and he gets in Elinor's face and mocks her in a most offensive manner. If you or I had seen someone treat our sisters like that, it would have been an occasion for trouble—big trouble. Yet, the Ang-Lee version of the Dashwood women seem almost amused."<br /><br />My point with all this is that, again, whether one thinks an adaptation or not is 'fathful' is informed more often than not by personal taste and whether or not similar feelings are invoked by the film as by the novel.<br /><br />You felt S&S was a good adaptation (I enjoyed it very much as well) and the changes weren't 'deal-breakers' for you. For others those changes were horrid and made for a *bad* adaptation.<br /><br />The same thing is true for Jackson and his Tolkein adaptations.<br /><br />Cetain technical skills can be analyzed objectively in an artist and his work... other things are subjective to taste and comments like suburbanbanshee's: <br /><br />"Peter Jackson's arguments for changing LOTR mostly amounted to "I've got this glass slipper I made, and Cinderella's sisters need shoes. So I'll take a chopper to one sister's heels and toes, and a rack-stretcher to the other one's. And if the prince doesn't like their fit, he's just overly picky.""<br /><br />As just an example of some of the vitriol spewed against Jackson in these threads doesn't take into account the difference between personal taste and objectively poorly done work.<br /><br />There's a lot of 'I personally like this so I'll praise it and I personally don't like this so I'll insult the artists capabilities' and say that he's a 'hack' going on.Osskorreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14408780872015323307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75138826965946514182011-07-14T11:29:05.476-04:002011-07-14T11:29:05.476-04:00I happened to be reading a review of the new Harry...I happened to be reading a review of the new Harry Potter movie in this morning’s newspaper and I came across an interesting line, one that recasts this discussion from the perspective of the film critic:<br /><br />“Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2 makes a genuine summer blockbuster out of a fantasy franchise that has at times seemed too wedded to the text of J. K. Rowling’s source novels.”<br /><br />The critic (Peter Howell) also mentions that the previous movie “proved to be a bit of a slog” – he doesn’t specifically reiterate his complaint about movies being too true to their source material, but that’s likely the source of his ire as HP7 stuck pretty close to the “depressing” plot and mood of the first half of the final novel.<br /><br />In another amusing coincidence, given the direction of this discussion, Howell notes positively that, “the long-anticipated siege of Hogwarts school … gets what can only be called the Lord of the Rings treatment, with visual mayhem and character dynamics writ large.”JBMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13915780514486101083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85440071150199405562011-07-14T08:18:31.934-04:002011-07-14T08:18:31.934-04:00"...but even young dwarves look sturdy."..."...but even young dwarves look sturdy."<br /><br />Source please. I'd like to see the research done on how all young dwarves look.Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13691550494650829835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89392771288408173352011-07-14T08:13:29.419-04:002011-07-14T08:13:29.419-04:00Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur's picture just got re...Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur's picture just got released. Bombur has a long hair braid instead of a long beard, but the other two actually have beards of respectable length.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23112079594464354872011-07-14T07:34:17.375-04:002011-07-14T07:34:17.375-04:00'Imagine the reaction were someone to say, &qu...'Imagine the reaction were someone to say, "A movie with thirteen Asians has to have some with blue eyes and a few others with blonde hair, otherwise no one could tell them apart." '<br /><br />This would only be shocking if a white person said it in some politically correct country.<br /><br />If anyone, white, black, or otherwise, said it in Asia, there would be very little reaction. Asians are happy to dye their hair when they feel like it, and wear color-changing contact lenses when they feel like it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42249539972628398132011-07-14T02:24:20.242-04:002011-07-14T02:24:20.242-04:00Emma Thompson modified Jane Austen's novel Sen...Emma Thompson modified Jane Austen's novel Sense and Sensibility when she wrote her script - she had to, since a film is not a book - but her modifications adjusted the plot to reinforce the tone, characters, and story of the novel as a film. Most of the lines she added, for example, sound very Jane Austenish.<br /><br />There are plenty of other examples of careful conversions of books into films.<br /><br />So.<br /><br />Let's not create a false war between fidelity to source and doing justice to the medium of film.<br /><br />Fili and Kili could both have been blonde as they were in the book. It would have cost the filmmakers nothing to respect the source material in this.<br /><br />Also, they could have been dwarves. I don't know what those are, but even young dwarves look sturdy. The one on the right suffers from the dwarven version of anorexia. He also suffers from glam. He's entirely too elvish.Rick Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01707062453047354335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53789456135325633872011-07-14T00:25:40.508-04:002011-07-14T00:25:40.508-04:00This just in: Peter Jackson turns Tolkien story in...This just in: Peter Jackson turns Tolkien story into gonzo action flick, completely misses the point and ruins any literary merit. Film at 11.Korgothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04683370654357044679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74693575492581397202011-07-14T00:17:50.122-04:002011-07-14T00:17:50.122-04:00Really, guys? Freakin' really?
If any dwarves ...Really, guys? Freakin' really?<br />If any dwarves need to have distinct, singled-out appearances, it's these two. They need to look younger, and I can't think how else to go about it. They've still got stocky, dwarvish proportions and clearly visible beards.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61555021227186831412011-07-13T20:13:35.380-04:002011-07-13T20:13:35.380-04:00David Belasco's arguments about "why I ch...David Belasco's arguments about "why I changed the source material" made sense in terms of theatrical strengths and weaknesses, clear story, and audience enjoyment.<br /><br />Peter Jackson's arguments for changing LOTR mostly amounted to "I've got this glass slipper I made, and Cinderella's sisters need shoes. So I'll take a chopper to one sister's heels and toes, and a rack-stretcher to the other one's. And if the prince doesn't like their fit, he's just overly picky."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84132608403750102202011-07-13T18:53:43.496-04:002011-07-13T18:53:43.496-04:00@taranaich
"God, that argument missed the poi...@taranaich<br />"God, that argument missed the point so much it ended up in a different galaxy."<br /><br />Actually, that argument indicates that filmmakers who engage in adaptation, especially when huge budgets and mass market success are ultimate goals, will at best put accuracy to the source material lower than other priorities and at worst will completely disregard it as something not even to strive for.<br /><br />So holding zealous fan expectations as something to hope for or as a litmus test for the skill of a director/adaptor is to a great degree pointless because that isn't the game *they* are playing and isn't the criteria they, their peers, or their investors use to judge that adaptor or the success of the adaptation.<br /><br />For every adaptation, there will be fans who hate the choices the person with the responsibility made (going back at least as far as "The Maltese Falcon" and "The Big Sleep"). And the person, on the front lines of the production who *has* that responsibility is never going to pander to fan expectations but to their own instincts - whether fans like those choices or not.<br /><br />The only way to approach an adaptation without being disappointed over what is changed, is to approach the adaptation as it's own thing.<br /><br />I'm not a Jackson fanboy but I did enjoy the films for what they were... but the vehement hatred for his work in these threads and the labelling him as a 'hack' reminds me of this quote from Teddy Roosevelt:<br /><br />"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."Osskorreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14408780872015323307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54364636614891732472011-07-13T17:39:14.039-04:002011-07-13T17:39:14.039-04:00All I can say is, this is from the same team that ...All I can say is, this is from the same team that decided there weren't enough Bishie Elves, so added a whole bunch of them at Helm's Deep, and made Figwit into a speaking part. The same team who decided Aragorn being a confident, focused, determined leader of men into a reluctant, self-conscious sensitive soul was totally a great idea. The same team who did... that to Faramir.<br /><br />Par for the course, people. Par for the course.<br /><br /><i>It's amazing how racist we allow ourselves to be when it comes to fantasy. Imagine the reaction were someone to say, "A movie with thirteen Asians has to have some with blue eyes and a few others with blonde hair, otherwise no one could tell them apart." </i><br /><br />... Would it be more or less the same as the current reaction? Besides, this isn't about race, it's about fidelity to the source material. Tolkien described the characters in a certain way: these two characters (Kili in particular) don't square up. That's the problem.<br /><br />And, again, I'd like to think there's a middle ground between "absolute slavish adaptation to the source material" (as if that's automatically a bad thing) and "deciding to do whatever the hell they like." Thus, I think there's a middle ground between making dwarves look like, well, dwarves, that doesn't necessarily make them Gimli clones.<br /><br /><i>Since a transcription of a novel into film is impossible, even holding up a goal of "accuracy" is absurd."</i><br /><br />God, that argument missed the point so much it ended up in a different galaxy.Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49917954513916974962011-07-13T16:38:31.656-04:002011-07-13T16:38:31.656-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77471853871790390702011-07-13T14:16:26.939-04:002011-07-13T14:16:26.939-04:00I've now put the three dwarf pictures all in a...I've now put the three dwarf pictures all in a row. I see seven of them, if I'm counting correctly. I think it's a good, motley bunch that certainly looks greedy, avaricious, and not entirely capable (all though well armed).<br /><br />One looks like Kelsey Grammer. Another looks like the lead singer of Gogol Bordello. Two look like kids, one who is going to get in trouble, and the other drunk enough to follow the one who gets in trouble. Another looks like Kelsey Grammer's dad.<br /><br />I kinda like it. Do they all look like Gimli? Well, no. Good.<br /><br />They aren't bright and colorful, they have different hair and eyes, but you know what? They look like 7 treasure hunters who are going to get in big, big trouble unless someone really helps them along. Which is kinda what happens, if I recall.Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13691550494650829835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33246025665300893652011-07-13T13:48:54.354-04:002011-07-13T13:48:54.354-04:00How far are they going to have to stretch the, &qu...<i>How far are they going to have to stretch the, "Groovy Gospel for Today's Teens" thing.</i><br /><br>Hah! You have no idea how amusing I find this comment.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21153629902843310732011-07-13T13:29:20.753-04:002011-07-13T13:29:20.753-04:00Nothing says dwarves cannot sexy and happy. Though...Nothing says dwarves cannot sexy and happy. Though the ones in The Hobbit should not be good at adventuring.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801468265072232351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25032081639891063222011-07-13T07:23:55.095-04:002011-07-13T07:23:55.095-04:00Only Thorin, Fili and Kili die, and I think other ...Only Thorin, Fili and Kili die, and I think other than those only Bombur gets in any kind of peril that isn't shared by all the dwarves. They're the most strongly differentiated of the dwarves, not coincidentally. But I agree about the value of a varied cast and I'm willing to put up with slim sexy dwarves for the greater good.<br /><br />@JBM: I'm probably using a narrower definition of action than you are. The scene where the fifteen friends hide in trees from wolves is conceivably an action scene. For the sake of narrative flow, I fully expect it'll be turned into a running pursuit from the Misty Mountains, the party ending up surrounded and trapped before climbing the trees, or something of that sort. With some minor modifications it could become a high tension scene. <br />What I don't want to see is a giant melee with dwarves cutting up goblins like firewood for twenty minutes, because that's boring as sin and we've already seen that with LOTR. <br />Basically, other than the BoFA, where it's an important part of the narrative and people die, I would rather not watch any bolted-on paddded out fight scenes. A little added violence here and there is perfectly acceptable.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.com