tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1286709524904283114..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Open Friday: Level of Setting DetailJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18681915224982299292012-10-09T21:13:21.690-04:002012-10-09T21:13:21.690-04:00"What James has done is just right. I could d..."What James has done is just right. I could drop in _any_ city that I have into that slot _because_ the description is light on detail."<br /><br /><br />Again: why not just print a blank hex map? You can write whatever you want on it, so it's REAL imagination instead of someone else's work. If you don't care about the texture of the world James is *selling you* -- how else can you explain dropping in 'any city that [you] have'? -- then why not just start from scratch? Obviously you ideas are THE BEST IDEAS.<br /><br /><br />Did you get pissed off at Mad Libs for insisting that an entry should be an 'adjective' instead of whatever word you had around? Heavens.Wallynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23826353783671942912012-10-08T08:55:13.987-04:002012-10-08T08:55:13.987-04:00I could also drop any city into that slot, or desi...I could also drop any city into that slot, or design my own, or invent one on the spot. I could do so just as easily whether the entry is vague, like the one above, or highly specific. You say you disagree, that the more specific the entry is the harder this is to do, but you haven't explained why. It's certainly not a problem for me, I don't understand why it would be for you.<br /><br />Many location keys are not very useful because they're overly wordy (example offender: Ptolus). These keys are flawed in the same way as overly vague keys - it's hard to run them impromptu - but for a different reason - it's hard to get the important information out of them at speed, rather than the important information being missing. Note that how specific the key is and how wordy it is are two different things. If you read my previous comments, you should see that what I'm arguing for is short, concise entries (the same length as the original) that CAN (not 'almost') be used off the cuff, because they give concrete information to help the DM in improvising.<br /><br />I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about in regards to people in play vs theory or whatever. My position is pretty straight-forward: when I buy setting material, I want as much of it as possible to be usable without additional prep on my part. That means brief, concise entries with concrete details, which I can use or ignore at my leisure. That way when my players inevitably go somewhere I haven't prepared I have some inspiration to draw on while I'm making stuff up, so that I don't have to totally freeform it every time. What I want is ideas. I don't need the setting to leave things vague to force me to come up with my own - I'm quite capable of adding, changing, or replacing whatever I want, wherever and however I like, no encouragement required.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42093868205148041442012-10-08T06:19:49.275-04:002012-10-08T06:19:49.275-04:00Yes I disagree.
If you don't like dense infor...Yes I disagree.<br /><br />If you don't like dense information then you are better off with a blank map? I don't need to say much really, do I? Obviously, this is a ridiculous point of view.<br /><br />What James has done is just right. I could drop in _any_ city that I have into that slot _because_ the description is light on detail. Hell, I could even drop in Port Blacksand from Allansia (which isn't even D&D!), the City of the Invincible Overlord, the City of Vultures, Waterdeep... anything at all. Or I can invent my own. On the spot if need be. Who knows, maybe the city is in a snow globe that is really in a local wizard tower. It's up to me.<br /><br />It's a _springboard_ for your imagination. The more 'information density' included the worse this gets because, while it is possible to chop and change and drop what you don't want, it's much more likely that it will just never get used. Count how many source books full of 'dense' information you've ever bought and NEVER RUN and then go back and read Jame's decriptions. You could run those locations almost off the cuff... this is the ideal, because it speaks to people in /play/. Not in theory.The Recursion Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3321193450306517782012-10-07T18:55:06.545-04:002012-10-07T18:55:06.545-04:00The level of detail is a bit thin for my taste, bu...The level of detail is a bit thin for my taste, but acceptable. But I have one pet peeve with gazetteer entries and that's the whole "Unknown" thing. The number of elves living in Elphame isn't unknown -- it's kept secret from outsiders, but there is a specific, finite number of permanent inhabitants who live there. Why should that number be kept from the reader/GM?Andrew Byersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42845139260610261192012-10-07T12:04:49.975-04:002012-10-07T12:04:49.975-04:00What Wally said. Also, I've already said that ...What Wally said. Also, I've already said that it's a simple matter to ignore any or all of the extra information if you don't like it, leaving you with the same level of detail you would have had to begin with had the entry not included it. I've reiterated that in every comment I've made so far. Do you disagree?Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87932234687723115012012-10-07T11:28:52.722-04:002012-10-07T11:28:52.722-04:00@dc516a290eee495eb5ed6f985387b9c1:disqus sez: &quo...@dc516a290eee495eb5ed6f985387b9c1:disqus sez: "The more 'information density' (a convulated phrase that has nothing to do with play, fun and gaming) there is the HARDER it is to make it your own."<br /><br /><br />This is only true for a very limited idea of how you 'make it your own.' It's not like it's suddenly less authentic if you provide 90% of the substance of an adventure instead of 99%; GMing isn't a parlour trick for heaven's sake. <br /><br /><br />Lemme put it this way: the Gazetteer excerpt above is like the instruction 'write a poem here.' But you could say 'write here a sonnet with a break after the 8th line, on the theme of "mournful ghosts in a decaying palace,"' and the poem would still be entirely your work. You'd still be the creator in every sense. And you'd have an easier time in the early stages, because you wouldn't pointlessly fumble for the 'ideal' topic.<br /><br /><br />If you're really unwilling to cede imaginative authority to a setting author even at that level then you're better off with lists of interesting vocabulary words and a blank map.Wallynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12088600749162757362012-10-07T11:13:59.461-04:002012-10-07T11:13:59.461-04:00I'm confused by 4221 -- you've given a phy...I'm confused by 4221 -- you've given a physical location, but isn't the specific location of Brigadoon the <em>least</em> important thing about it? The same thing goes for Moria (3413) and Rivendell (2806) up above: why tie them to a physical location at all? It's not as if there's a fully worked-out migratory/geographic logic behind the gazetteer, so what does the physical specification actually win the GM, except the few minutes it takes to populate a Hexographer map?<br /><br /><br />I'm also wondering why this section of the book gives so little information about the <em>feel</em> of the world. Disappearing cities, dwarven holds, elven cities, friendly villages, giants underground -- what makes these J-Mal's awesomesauce, rather than Property of the Generic Fantasy Trappings Office, is the feel you impart to them. Your excerpt feels <strong>to me</strong> a lot like 'trope 1 is here, trope 2 here,' but why would I turn to your book for that, instead of a Perl script?<br /><br /><br />So I guess I'm in the 'too little flavour' camp, if one exists, and I'd want more...tetchiness, or something, for my $N.Wallynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64926541085662789742012-10-07T10:04:44.707-04:002012-10-07T10:04:44.707-04:00Nonsense. The more 'information density' (...Nonsense. The more 'information density' (a convulated phrase that has nothing to do with play, fun and gaming) there is the HARDER it is to make it your own. This is because you are directly attacking it's 'pick up and play' value. If you cannot make it your own, its lifespan is limited. Very limited.The Recursion Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68541027388466663362012-10-06T23:42:16.877-04:002012-10-06T23:42:16.877-04:00I think that is barely sufficient for an overview,...I think that is barely sufficient for an overview, allowing the individual DM's to write and/or improvise the "modules" for each of those areas, as needed. <br /> But if I were writing it, I would include a bit more flavor. Like in the entry for Elphame, I might include a line or two describing the city, and its surrounding environment. I would also include a bit more data under "Resource", and perhaps another NPC or two of note.Michael Scrivenhttp://www.facebook.com/michael.scriven.376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16946173968420799562012-10-06T11:45:04.584-04:002012-10-06T11:45:04.584-04:00It's not giving me an out, because it's no...It's not giving me an out, because it's not allowing me to do anything I couldn't do anyway. If I don't want to run the city before I've prepared, I can just as easily have it not appear that night whether that information is in the entry or not. I can always ignore information I don't want, so long as it's concise; what's harder is coming up with stuff on the spur of the moment.<br /><br />Also, the city out of time thing is just an example. Extrapolate that out to many or most of the entries in the setting being unusable without prior prep, and you have a less useful setting overall.<br /><br />Or, look at it this way. If a setting designer gives you a city that fades in and out of time, he's given you one idea. If he gives you the city, the circumstances of its appearance, its treasure and its guardians, he's given you four ideas in the same amount of space. If you don't want to use those ideas, then you're still no worse off than you were before with just one. Better information density = better value.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43352188601637383532012-10-06T11:37:33.772-04:002012-10-06T11:37:33.772-04:00As much as I like the Greyhawk setting, and I love...As much as I like the Greyhawk setting, and I love it. I think that products like City of Greyhawk improved the setting greatly. I am also a fan of the Gazetteer series for BECM. That said, a broad overview product with terse entries is ideal as an initial product. It provides enough to whet the appetite of those like me who might want more detail later, and it provides enough information for those who want only the outline.<br /><br />I just found that Greyhawk's outline nature lead to detailed discussions and hermeneutic analysis of every word...or at least that is what my experience on the old AOL Greyhawk discussion groups taught me.Christian Lindkenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31213136668253498492012-10-06T10:45:44.297-04:002012-10-06T10:45:44.297-04:00I like this level of detail for most entries, but ...I like this level of detail for most entries, but would like a few to be given significantly more detail. Just a few, mind, and maybe not any specific entry. Like, a single detailed dwarf hold that could be used for any of the listed dwarf holds as needed. That sort of thing could be really handy.jwnewquistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51801059072601733882012-10-06T10:42:47.861-04:002012-10-06T10:42:47.861-04:00I feel like, for this entry in particular, it CAN&...I feel like, for this entry in particular, it CAN'T come up unexpectedly. If the party ends up in that hex and you're not prepared, just don't have the city appear that night. If the party is looking for the city, the vagueness of the entry actually gives you the out to put off actually encountering it until you've had time to fill in the details.jwnewquistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22995005602033682562012-10-06T07:47:28.474-04:002012-10-06T07:47:28.474-04:00Is it just me, or does Disqus not display every co...Is it just me, or does Disqus not display every comment? There are 30, but only 28 show up.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68745824168748279562012-10-06T06:23:00.189-04:002012-10-06T06:23:00.189-04:00You might want to think about marking rumours with...You might want to think about marking rumours with a * or something rather than wasting space with "open to debate" type text. You could perhasp also mark some as completely false, just so the DM has a local myth to relate in a given area. Otherwise, I'd say you're about right in terms of text. Maybe a *little* bit too much.Nagora Neridesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88492729496297168272012-10-06T05:54:16.265-04:002012-10-06T05:54:16.265-04:00I'd say they are almost good. Long enough to g...I'd say they are almost good. Long enough to get the great picture, short enough to fit a lot of material on a few pages.<br />However I'd prefer if every hex would give something to play with, to react to.<br />2806: Ok, there's this hidden settlement. But if it's hidden, what shall I do with it? Why would it be interesting to me? If they would hide the riches of the elven traders they've accumulated over the years it would give some motivation to actively search for them.<br />2911: A friendly village without any interesting features. The idea of goblins could be a good one - the goblins might be guarding the village against invaders. When a party runs into some goblins and kill them, the village might get somewhat angry.<br />3413: Perfect. I need not know the size of the fort - I can draw a map as large as I want. The source of the extermination can be anything from some demonic plague to a wrathful wraith, the text doesn't restrict me.<br />3627: Amost good, but something is missing. What happens if I enter the hex? What can I do there? Not neccessary, but a mention of the name of their leader would be also nice.<br />4004: Great.<br />4221: Almost great. But what happens if I enter the place when there's no city yet? At least there could be some ruins I could map, so I'd know the layout if the city appears.<br /><br />Some people asked for more details in the replys - you could add a bit more data if it doesn't make the descriptions much longer. For example the number of soldiers - you could enter it in the Population entry. "Pop: 100 (20 Soldiers)".Kadmonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5097818618379715912012-10-06T05:42:56.504-04:002012-10-06T05:42:56.504-04:00Nobody cares so long as it never comes up. But it ...Nobody cares so long as it never comes up. But it may well come up, unexpectedly, in which case I have no option but to make it up on the spot. I can do that, of course, but the entry could be more helpful in that regard. If it gave specifics, I would have something to riff off when improvising.<br />Contrariwise, having specifics doesn't prevent you from filling in the details yourself, since you can just selectively ignore what's already there, leaving you with just as much information as you would have had anyway. And creating rumours is as easy as reading the entry, then giving only partial or vague information to the players. Having specific, usable information in the entry doesn't impair you in any way at all, yet also allows for quick, easy improvisation. It seems like an unqualified improvement.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30977456408710845452012-10-06T04:49:02.034-04:002012-10-06T04:49:02.034-04:00The length and level of content is just right, I t...The length and level of content is just right, I think. I'm far from an expert at this kind of thing, but it's about the same level of detail I'd go into.Kelvin Greenhttp://profiles.google.com/thekelvingreennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51473292826864403542012-10-06T00:03:28.388-04:002012-10-06T00:03:28.388-04:00I think the most important is the title of each en...I think the most important is the title of each entry. The title needs to be evocative and hint at what type of place. I get tired of nonsense fantasy words. I like instead fantasy locals that hint at a an origin word that I understand. <br /><br /><br />I don't always get it right with my predictions with the name, but at least I can make some sort of prediction. My favorite of the bunch above has to be The City Out of Time.Matt Kaukonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10306035058084234142012-10-05T23:19:05.387-04:002012-10-05T23:19:05.387-04:00Looks about right. If I had to pick on them, I...Looks about right. If I had to pick on them, I'd say they are slightly too flowery and could be a bit more practical.Jack Colbynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75924342496697646882012-10-05T17:23:20.670-04:002012-10-05T17:23:20.670-04:00I prefer those details not filled in because it le...I prefer those details not filled in because it lets me fill them in as required. Who cares if the right day is wednesday or thursday if it never comes up in play? Better left as it is, for me, because as its, it's perfect for rumours. If the rumours pique the player's interests then we can worry about detail.The Recursion Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80555742712371762372012-10-05T17:20:55.595-04:002012-10-05T17:20:55.595-04:00I think these are just about perfect. I've bee...I think these are just about perfect. I've been struggling with how exactly to write up some of my setting ideas for an over-the-top setting I'm trying to loosly put together, and I think I may adopt something with a similar tone for that project (rather than the overly detailed and "authoritative" way I was initially trying to write it). Rather than trying to define everything, I'll just give some ideas and general hints and leave it up to any future GM's to fill in the details and decide what's "true" for themselves and their groups.<br /><br />Thank you!Stephen Brandonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19796490849260510042012-10-05T17:03:51.093-04:002012-10-05T17:03:51.093-04:00That amount of detail actually feels just right fo...That amount of detail actually feels just right for me. I can plug in any Dwarf hold and call it Ghaz Droonan or any castle and call it Castle Greenholt. <br /><br />As an aside, what do you think of at least copying the Open Friday links to Google+? These are likely to induce discussion, and that would be another great medium. I understand yo don't cross post everything, but I think a good argument could be made for the Open Friday posts.Roger Brasslettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61965176534049809212012-10-05T17:03:01.287-04:002012-10-05T17:03:01.287-04:00These are nice, though they are a bit high level. ...These are nice, though they are a bit high level. I like having some "zoomed in" detail also, like Carcosa does. An encounter that you can run directly from the book that has some unique color. In some of your examples above, like the Outyard, you still need to do some work to get a Giant encounter. Compare to this fragment from Carcosa, hex 1604:<br /><br /><br />Village of 380 White Men ruled by "the Blanket of Defense," a neutral 11th-level Fighter.<br /><br /><br />An imbecilic Purple cultist will attack passersby from his hiding place. He is strong and armed with a huge axe (+3 damage). He spouts only gibberish, and no one can reason with him.Brendanhttp://untimately.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63234489133151412992012-10-05T16:53:12.738-04:002012-10-05T16:53:12.738-04:00Dwarfs. Miasma. Hee.Dwarfs. Miasma. Hee.Nathan Eastonnoreply@blogger.com