tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1367431417252402464..comments2024-03-28T15:30:09.903-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: SIZ MattersJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21082033465225450402011-03-12T06:42:02.391-05:002011-03-12T06:42:02.391-05:00My days of DMing were sour, brief and long time go...My days of DMing were sour, brief and long time gone. But if the clock could turn back, the first thing I'd do would be getting rid of ability stats. They are dead wood. Cfr. the 'Searchers of the Unknown' microgame.<br /><br />The second thing I'd do would be replacing the AC score by a hit point multiplier: no armour (100%), leather (120%), chain (140%), plate (160%). All an adventurer needs is Skill, Stamina/Endurance and Luck. Or, in D20 terms: THAC0, hit points and saving throws.<br /><br />Talking about saving throws: the third thing to do would be unifying them into a single score. But I'll never play D&D again, so why bother?anonimous, emperador en el exiliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13204169087393199959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67515667781242075722011-03-06T17:31:25.516-05:002011-03-06T17:31:25.516-05:00I can see a correlation between Wisdom and Bravery...I can see a correlation between Wisdom and Bravery. The more Wise a character is, the less likely they are to rush up to a dragon and engage in melee combat.<br /><br />A character would need to FAIL a wisdom check in order to perform a brave/foolhardy action that puts themselves in brave danger, but may be the only chance to save the whole party. In this regard, a low wisdom score would be beneficial for fighters and barbarians.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04006976826851198428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74204984934748016812011-03-02T16:30:00.424-05:002011-03-02T16:30:00.424-05:00Yes, POW was not quite the same as WIS: a high POW...Yes, POW was not quite the same as WIS: a high POW made you stand out in a crowd, your strong personality being hard to hide. (Penalties to Stealth and Disguise IIRC.)Mr Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17516616207766855828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87058189294855490572011-02-28T07:41:25.791-05:002011-02-28T07:41:25.791-05:00Also!
Original post included '...seven abilit...Also!<br /><br />Original post included <i>'...seven ability scores, six of which are identical to those found in OD&D...'</i><br /><br />I think that's roughly right. 'Identical' might be a bit too strong though. For example, I doubt that the OD&D concept of 'Wisdom' maps 1:1 with 'POW'. I'm also doubtful that OD&D 'Strength' can be identical to RQ 'STR', given the separate treatment (and effects) of SIZ. The stealth/ defence implications of SIZ might even imply that OD&D 'Dexterity' differs from RQ 'DEX'. <br /><br />My sense is that the RQ attribute concepts (except POW) generally have a more 'gritty' naturalistic/ biological intent than the OD&D ones, a difference which runs right through the systems.Bwianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04193737279288462654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9027305285000548972011-02-28T07:31:39.777-05:002011-02-28T07:31:39.777-05:00RQ is a 'simmy' game. I like its striking...RQ is a 'simmy' game. I like its striking use of SIZ, because it picks up on something that makes sense to me, in terms of what 'SIZ' models. But I feel that coming up with a 'flipside' for every attribute would be straining credulity, just for the sake of creating symmetry. It might be fun, though, in a game that wasn't so expressly 'simmy'.<br /><br />Also, I have some sympathy with what <b>SteelCaress</b> said above about 'cutting out the middle man'. On the other hand, if you use a single attribute score in many different ways - as RQ does with SIZ, STR & POW - it may not lend itself to being reduced to a single +/- score.<br /><br /><b>Mark</b> mentioned Pendragon above. As far as I am aware this was the first major RPG publication to systematise the flip-sided scores. As Mark notes, it only applies to a subset of the basic character attributes. It works very sweetly in this context because the items chosen are all expressly designed to represent moral continua, which are central to the (literary) setting. Whether they make a good model of natural human personalities is a separate question.Bwianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04193737279288462654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56009531630428197932011-02-25T08:27:54.045-05:002011-02-25T08:27:54.045-05:00When we played OD&D we used 1d20 for attribute...When we played OD&D we used 1d20 for attribute tests, even though it wasn't part of the game. It just made sense to do so. Roll 1d20 and get below the characteristic to perform some sort of action successfully. For example giving the St Crispin's Day Speech to the troops before battle required a successful roll under CHA. <br /><br />But it could also be reversed. For example, sneaking through a town without attracting undue attention (assuming you were properly cloaked and hooded) required you to <i>fail</i> a CHA roll.<br /><br />I believe the other circumstances we used a failed test to intentionally indicate success included failing a STR roll to fit through a narrow hole, failing a WIS roll to do something exceedingly stupid (but so unexpected that it actually worked), and failing a CON roll to avoid romantic entanglements with an overly amorous succubus. However such circumstances generally came up in play.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37516725444774629432011-02-25T07:19:05.687-05:002011-02-25T07:19:05.687-05:00In AD&D1e there is the case of the Comeliness ...In AD&D1e there is the case of the Comeliness and Charisma scores which can go into the negatives for some creatures, and can provide some effects like shock.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22605146113621194332011-02-25T06:50:30.195-05:002011-02-25T06:50:30.195-05:00Others have already mentioned low CHA being good f...Others have already mentioned low CHA being good for sneaking: this is more or less built into James Bond, except there it's really about how distinctive you are (while I think the usual interpretation of low CHA is "extraordinarily repulsive"): in general I think you'd have to find new metaphors for most of the D&D attributes to make such hi/lo jinks work.<br />CON can simply become SIZ. It's not a perfect fit, but it's intuitive. Or CON could be a measure of how tightly your spirit is stuck to your body - making it good for saves vs poison & magic, which could be two-edged if you had to fail a save vs. healing magic for it to work, for instance.<br /><br />I know many readers will hate this, but: imagine a campaign where INT and WIS were opposite sides of the same attribute. The intelligent man can think of ways to get out of holes the wise man is too smart to fall into. Or, per Steven Marsh, magic requires faith in your own ego but miracles require faith in outside agents. You can't have both.<br />Alas, if you do that then you can't have truly stupid characters any more. Who sees that as a problem?<br />Again, all of this makes most sense if attributes just measure deviation from average, rather than being part of some absolute continuum where you really can be as dumb as a chicken or as ugly as a monster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68806649097300130612011-02-25T05:21:27.442-05:002011-02-25T05:21:27.442-05:00thanks James, this idea rocks. I'm gonna make ...thanks James, this idea rocks. I'm gonna make something out of it...MTNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10389626031147642433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86945064426275780282011-02-25T04:45:46.539-05:002011-02-25T04:45:46.539-05:00In my 1e online game, a CHA 3 Assassin PC used his...In my 1e online game, a CHA 3 Assassin PC used his low CHA to get people to ignore him so he could get close and stab them!Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38515178815523690482011-02-25T01:15:44.437-05:002011-02-25T01:15:44.437-05:00Regarding benefits of a low CON...
A study hit al...Regarding benefits of a low CON...<br /><br />A study hit all the news outlets this week (here's one link: http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/650232.html) that exposure to "farm microbes" make children less susceptible to asthma.<br /><br />Maybe sickly types get bonuses against disease ("I had that as a kid"), or gas/pheromone/scent attacks ("I'm too congested to be affected"). Maybe they get bonuses--or outright immunity--to the effects of Undead level drain, as they don't have enough "life force" to be impacted, or even be desired targets in the first place.<br /><br />Hmmm...maybe low CON leads to AC bonuses in combat ("The monsters can sense I'm weak...I wouldn't make a good meal" or "I'm beneath their notice")Justin S. Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14881276106170920830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87450881313918033702011-02-24T22:46:25.526-05:002011-02-24T22:46:25.526-05:00I always preferred the "direct effect" a...I always preferred the "direct effect" attribute scheme of The Fantasy Trip (and later, GURPS). If the only purpose of ability like STR or DEX is to provide a bonus or penalty to something else, why not take out the middleman entirely and just have a +3 STR and -1 DEX, for example.Eric R. Wirsinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632409261940844934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12769331158386360152011-02-24T22:31:45.187-05:002011-02-24T22:31:45.187-05:00I hate ability scores.I hate ability scores.huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2209246545725810842011-02-24T20:51:02.764-05:002011-02-24T20:51:02.764-05:00> the "engine" -- how I loathe that w...> the "engine" -- how I loathe that word<br /><br />How about "framework"?Todd A. Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16177477114706281373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41896360996884765152011-02-24T20:48:39.550-05:002011-02-24T20:48:39.550-05:00What if the penalty (and bonus) for stats was done...What if the penalty (and bonus) for stats was done on creation. What you roll in one stat effects another stat, and demi-humans only gain a bonus to a stat, done after (and no penalty).<br /><br />Example: 4d6 keep the best 3...<br />+3 and +4 = -1 to opposite<br />* Str/Int (you either practiced your swordsmanship or read books)<br />* Dex/Wis (not sure why?)<br />* Con/Cha (either you have some fat, like real Roman gladiators did, or you're thin and gorgeous)<br /><br />I suppose you could also set it up where physical stats effect other physical stats (Str vs Dex), or one stat effects 2 stats. But this is just a quick example... (I'll use B/X stats)<br /><br />Str rolled 16, so -1 to your rolled Int<br />Int rolled 17, so -1 str.. which means its 15 and Int becomes 17 instead of 16.<br /><br />Wis, Dex, Con rolled 13, 15, 11<br />Cha rolled an 18, so Con of 11 becomes 10<br /><br />Str 15 Int 17 Wis 13 Dex 15 Con 10 Cha 18<br />Oh, and its an elf so Dex gets +1, so Dex 16. If you left it as is, than it is as is. otherwise if you ruled the penalty continues, than its Wis 12.<br /><br />Str 15 Int 17 Wis 12 Dex 16 Con 10 Cha 18Mighty Veilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13091153241917134322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16321314369139283882011-02-24T19:50:15.878-05:002011-02-24T19:50:15.878-05:00Not exactly "attributes", but the Pendra...Not exactly "attributes", but the Pendragon system of personality traits is dichotomized in this way: lustful/chaste, prudent/reckless, pious/worldly, etc. Depending on the situation on hand, on a higher score on either end might be more helpful. At the same time, depending on your social background, certain traits would be more useful. So a good pagan noble ought be proud and a good Christian knight should aspire to be modest. A simple mechanic supporting an admirable level of complexity.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07197274506610578370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66371025010424241622011-02-24T18:59:23.441-05:002011-02-24T18:59:23.441-05:00@Zarcanthropus - I think you are right that min-ma...@Zarcanthropus - I think you are right that min-maxers would simply adjust what they do, whether it be having all 10s, or still stacking whatever it is that's more beneficial or used more frequently. I have a player like that. It's just in his blood. No matter what you try to discourage it, his mission is to create the most mechanically fit character possible. His favorite game would be if they made an RPG where you played an expert character-creator. And he would find a way to optimize that guy too.<br /><br />@enmalkm - your rule makes little sense, but it is wonderfully awesome!<br /><br />In the end, I think characters need to suck at things sometimes, and it shouldn't be counter-balanced by automatically being good at something else. Life isn't fair, after all. And nothing is more fun than a mature, skilled player with a total crap character. All sorts of cool things start to happen in that scenario...Jeremy Deramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166744272459044563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86583683604440920282011-02-24T16:36:40.130-05:002011-02-24T16:36:40.130-05:00I recall the Marvel Super Heroes game having eleme...I recall the Marvel Super Heroes game having elements of this to it. Certain powers, such as Growth or Shrinking changed your size and made you easier to hit or tougher to hit respectivly on top of other changes the power brought.<br /><br />With ability scores themselves, there was a potential drawback to high scores in fighting and strength. They certainly made it easier to hit your targets but it was also more likely that you would roll a "kill" or "slam" result and possibly kill your opponent outright or knock them of a building. Something a classic super hero would almost never do (just ignore the modern, gritty reboots of every character into gun-toting, muscle-and-breast-bound killing machines). <br /><br />In fact, you were heavily penalized for killing in Marvel Super Heroes, by losing all your Karma (XP) points. So you had to be careful.Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47767047240991897442011-02-24T16:10:14.613-05:002011-02-24T16:10:14.613-05:00I like the bonus/penalty thing for both ends of th...I like the bonus/penalty thing for both ends of the score spectrum. In 3rd edition RuneQuest (maybe 2nd too, can't recall), high POW meant you could cast more spells and better defend against them and so forth, but hurt your chances of sneaking or hiding. The rules stated "Powerful Life Force makes it harder to conceal your aura.", while someone with a 4 POW would in effect get a +6% to all Sneak or Hide chances. <br /><br />One thing I did not like about this system was the amount of recalculation involved during play. With RQ 3e at least, short-duration magic for enhancing/diminishing your ability scores was quite common. Each casting of Strength/Coordination/Enhance APP/Diminish SIZ etc led to a cascading series of recalculations. <br /><br />With STR score as an example: STR is a secondary factor in determining your Agility modifier (which modifies Boat, Climb, Dodge, Jump, Ride, Swim, and Throw, as well as all weapon parry chances). It is also secondary factor in Manipulation skills (Conceal, Devise, Sleight, and Play Instrument, as well as all weapon attack chances). STR also helps determine Fatigue and Damage modifier, and dictates how much you can lift, etc. Negative Fatigue in turn induces a penalty on every percentile roll the character makes.<br /><br />So changing the STR score by even 1 necessitates recalculation of the Agility and Manipulation modifiers (half STR, -10, divide by 2, round up, max of +10), which then change 10 skills plus however many attacks and parries your character has skill in. Also Fatigue changes, and all rolls affected by Fatigue must be recalculated as well. Damage modifier also must be redetermined. This is from the effects from not even the full power of a 1-point Strength spell! WHEE. It's even worse for scores like INT or DEX as they affect more skills, and affect the use of magic as well. <br /><br />I love RQ and have played it for decades. It's just when you combine a meaningful high end and low and of ability scores *and* have widely magic-fungible scores you might have an in-game arithmetic problem on your hands.<br /><br />JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77962041548427330052011-02-24T15:51:20.938-05:002011-02-24T15:51:20.938-05:00I had a player with a fairy PC with a STR of 15, D...I had a player with a fairy PC with a STR of 15, DX of 27 and LK of 32. She also had a magic sword doing 7d of hits. Awesome.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66632903030461631622011-02-24T15:47:02.447-05:002011-02-24T15:47:02.447-05:00RQ had a few things like this, but my brain might ...RQ had a few things like this, but my brain might be too fossilized to see it working for D&D. I'll take a swing anyway:<br /><br />Strength: low strength gives a bonus to stealth and to delicate thief skills (picking locks, for example).<br /><br />Intelligence: A resistance to some types of charm spells, as well as fear and morale effects.<br /><br />Wisdom: Again a bonus to fear effects seems reasonable, as well as resistance to emotion spells. I'd probably give straight magic resistance for both low Int and Wis.<br /><br />Constitution: I must admit to being stumped here...being sickly doesn't have much of a payoff anywhere. A bonus when dealing with otherwordly creatures somehow (the sickly is clearly not long for this world, generating an affinity). Maybe a reaction roll bonus when dealing with other sicklies?<br /><br />Dexterity: A bonus to Dex rolls when moving at normal speed or less (the clumsy tend to be more careful when they're paying attention), resistance against feint and combat tricks (too slow to be fooled), a minor armor bonus (they're not chafing against the restrictions of armor like 'normal' people).<br /><br />Charisma: Big bonus against charm spells (people tend not to like them, so they reciprocate), big resistance to people using charisma-based attacks/skills on them.<br /><br />Definitely an idea to consider.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62971171564711184492011-02-24T15:41:47.742-05:002011-02-24T15:41:47.742-05:00I just wanted to say that I, too, loathe the term ...I just wanted to say that I, too, loathe the term "engine" in the context of a rules system. Solidarity, Brother !Doc Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04084635785043015262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6657702510085328002011-02-24T15:00:44.018-05:002011-02-24T15:00:44.018-05:00@Ed:
'but that was ditched in later editions a...@Ed:<br />'but that was ditched in later editions and replaced with a restriction on encumbrance, which kinda makes more sense':<br />It was changed in the 5th Edition, back in 1979, actually. The 'muscular fairy' restriction wasn't around for long(a scant 4 years!).velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13691686533633853482011-02-24T14:49:28.042-05:002011-02-24T14:49:28.042-05:00@James:
SIZ:
In CoC 6th, it is averaged with STR t...@James:<br />SIZ:<br />In CoC 6th, it is averaged with STR to determine Damage Bonus and averaged with CON, for HP.(And height/weight, of course.)<br /><br />In the latest BRP edition, it modifies Strike Rank, and if half or more of your SIZ rating is lost, through starvation, assault, wasting magic, etc..., you die! <br /><br />'a very small SIZ character gains a +5% bonus to parrying attacks, while a very large SIZ character suffers a -5% penalty. On the other hand, a high SIZ grants a bonus to hit points, while a low SIZ exacts a penalty. Other examples following this pattern abound.':<br />Similar instances are mentioned under Parrying, Dodging, Special Situations, etc...<br /><br /><br />@StevenWarble:<br />ER is a freaky game, for sure. Not terribly interested in the Violence(Isn't this Immoral sometimes? :-)), Paranoia, Immorality breakdown as a replacement for Sanity Points, though.(Unknown Armies also had a similar system.) It's more the setting than the rules, and the rules could be ripped out, of course. Oddly enough, I just mentioned this yesterday in a Grognardia post!velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30372090995985755642011-02-24T14:40:16.698-05:002011-02-24T14:40:16.698-05:00When we were kids playing with the Basic D&D b...When we were kids playing with the Basic D&D box set in the mid-90s, we started using a house rule that if a PC died, another character could attempt to force a healing potion down their throat in order to avert death. The only catch was that the dying character had to fail a constitution check, which we said was to simulate having to overcome the character's gag reflex. Kind of wonky, but we always liked the "gotcha" effect when a character's high ability score became their downfall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com