tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1397005786806613377..comments2024-03-28T15:30:09.903-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Tolkien and HowardJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35945564039044150642009-10-22T23:43:47.068-04:002009-10-22T23:43:47.068-04:00Good point.
I won’t ever claim to be deep. ^_^
I...Good point.<br /><br />I won’t ever claim to be deep. ^_^<br /><br />In Tolkien I see a theme of struggling against seemingly insurmountable odds.<br /><br />In Howard I see the theme that the seemingly invincible foe isn’t.<br /><br />Both of which I think have made appearances in campaigns I’ve played.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79828560051349344842009-10-21T17:12:12.707-04:002009-10-21T17:12:12.707-04:00Hey, if anybody wants to continue this conversatio...Hey, if anybody wants to continue this conversation I just wrote a long rant on ideas this post (and the comments) brought up for me over here:<br /><br />http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2009/10/where-action-is-part-2-grognardia-jack.html<br /><br />(Don;t mean to steal your thunder James,but I also don't want to drag the comments off into a hydra of comments only tangentially related to your original post.)Zak Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05443268280676127815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79719583758128793052009-10-21T16:44:26.021-04:002009-10-21T16:44:26.021-04:00@Taranaich Howarth: it depends what one means by &...@Taranaich <i>Howarth: it depends what one means by "modern fantasy." I'm not referring to the post-Tolkien glut of derivative doorstoppers that suffocate bookshelves since the '60s, I'm referring to the likes of Wolfe, Vance, Lieber, Anderson, Zelazny, Brackett, Wagner, Le Guin, Moorcock and others. Anyone post-Dunsany, really (Dunsany being the architect of the "grand tower", so to speak).</i><br /><br />Ah, that's okay, then ;-).metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6741849134720916452009-10-21T15:50:25.264-04:002009-10-21T15:50:25.264-04:00Thanks for the props.
I always wrestled with D&am...Thanks for the props.<br /><br />I always wrestled with D&D to be like Tolkien for most of my gaming career.<br /><br />After reading Vance, everything has clicked.<br /><br />I think the core themes which grow most rampantly in the "soil" of OD&D game form and mechanics are the themes which underwrite Vance.ravenconspiracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297088878140758114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76688603505601896112009-10-21T11:51:29.592-04:002009-10-21T11:51:29.592-04:00Howarth: it depends what one means by "modern...Howarth: it depends what one means by "modern fantasy." I'm not referring to the post-Tolkien glut of derivative doorstoppers that suffocate bookshelves since the '60s, I'm referring to the likes of Wolfe, Vance, Lieber, Anderson, Zelazny, Brackett, Wagner, Le Guin, Moorcock and others. Anyone post-Dunsany, really (Dunsany being the architect of the "grand tower", so to speak).Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71516539311593740822009-10-21T08:28:45.453-04:002009-10-21T08:28:45.453-04:00Emonator gets big points here. Great observations....<i>Emonator gets big points here. Great observations.</i><br /><br />I second the motion.metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20332910559793089342009-10-21T08:25:21.752-04:002009-10-21T08:25:21.752-04:00Howard, along with Tolkien, is one of the foundati...<i>Howard, along with Tolkien, is one of the foundation stones upon which the grand tower of modern fantasy is built</i>.<br /><br />Grand tower of modern fantasy? Wow, that's more credit than I would give to modern fantasy, by a bunch.<br /><br />@Adam Thornton - <br /><br /><i>Me, I'd go with--and this is where the "almost anything" comes in--"The Christ story, retold on the Dying Earth, with a bunch of Borges, the Frankenstein story, and plenty of Lewis Carroll stirred in, in a ginormous stew with damn-near-everything-and-the-kitchen-sink as well."</i><br /><br />These are precisely the reasons I couldn't stand <i>Book of the New Sun</i> despite it coming highly recommended by many SF authors I admire. It just comes across as muddled, to me.<br /><br /><i>Empire of the Petal Throne is, uh....more Howard than Vance in the same way Carcosa is more Lovecraft than Vance, maybe?</i><br /><br />I dunno, I think EPT is very Vancian. It takes place on another planet in the far future, with no remaining connection to Earth and weird alien beings mixed with even weirder human cultures. Sounds like about half of the Vancian SF oeuvre.metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8975474153402533522009-10-21T06:32:26.352-04:002009-10-21T06:32:26.352-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71205665966382784652009-10-21T00:49:36.467-04:002009-10-21T00:49:36.467-04:00Emonator gets big points here. Great observations....Emonator gets big points here. Great observations.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87458799058156029252009-10-20T22:21:04.762-04:002009-10-20T22:21:04.762-04:00@Nagoroa: Ripped off Vance? The Urth cycle is mor...@Nagoroa: Ripped off Vance? The Urth cycle is more <i>Dying Earth</i> than almost anything else, sure, but it's also got a hell of a lot of Borges in it.<br /><br />Me, I'd go with--and this is where the "almost anything" comes in--"The Christ story, retold on the Dying Earth, with a bunch of Borges, the Frankenstein story, and plenty of Lewis Carroll stirred in, in a ginormous stew with damn-near-everything-and-the-kitchen-sink as well."<br /><br />@Timeshadows: for a Wolfean campaign, well, you could come play in certain of my games, or there's always GURPS: New Sun. <i>Empire of the Petal Throne</i> is, uh....more Howard than Vance in the same way <i>Carcosa</i> is more Lovecraft than Vance, maybe?Adam Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06368676086759298705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63530777063737519152009-10-20T20:24:49.454-04:002009-10-20T20:24:49.454-04:00> I think RPGs nowadays are even less concerned...> I think RPGs nowadays are even less concerned with deeper themes than were those at the dawn of the hobby.<br /><br />There's an awful lot of RPGs out there. I just can't agree with this statement. <br /><br />Wasn't Dragonlance all about "deeper themes"? Doesn't Dark Sun try to bring some of this up. Maybe those are caricatures (I'm not that familiar with them, see below) But, certainly all of White Wolf products are meant to be played that way. And the entire "indie"/Forge scene is ALL about themes over game.<br /><br />The whole storypath movement you rail against is meant to be exploring these deeper meanings. At least that is the intention I get from reading them.<br /><br />Personally can't stand those kinds of "games". Good for books, movies, and story telling, not for games. I want Conan The Barbarian not Conan the Literary Analysis. YMMV ;)<br /><br />[and damn, 45 comments! you're blog has gotten too popular]Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59205347914965464002009-10-20T19:44:50.307-04:002009-10-20T19:44:50.307-04:00Players & DM's will create their own thema...Players & DM's will create their own thematic elements. Hopefully, there will be some synergy here, but, an amusing exercise might be to ask your players, after a year or so of play, how they would describe the deeper elements within the campaign.<br /><br />Zak - I agree with your pov, at least to some extent, which is why I often like to DM on the fly. I found early on that I could tune in to my DM muse easier during a session, and was less likely to overthink or distrust where my spontaneous creativity was going.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192212467523179768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44814682619851198992009-10-20T19:09:00.993-04:002009-10-20T19:09:00.993-04:00@Timeshadows
I always thought your posts were ver...@Timeshadows<br /><br />I always thought your posts were very positive, but kind of light. Nice to see you've found a position you won't back away from. I have new respect. Make'em read Kidnapped, Treasure Island, and The Master Of Ballantrae one after another, I say.brasspenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00740202895575678193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33286008960101755822009-10-20T18:36:45.015-04:002009-10-20T18:36:45.015-04:00Being apart of the Conan RPG community, I notice t...Being apart of the Conan RPG community, I notice that most of the anti-Tolkien opinion stems from a general fatigue of High-fantasy in general. If anything, the root to all the High-fantasy fatigue is all the exposure of generic villa fantasy throughout the 90's, and super-cliché fiction like Eragon. I notice many people enter Conan expecting a cheep bit of escapism, but never expecting the deeper appeal of Howard's work.<br /><br />In context of role-playing, <i>Sword & Sorcery</i> appeals to people differently then high-fantasy. S&S fans like magic to be stranger, and less utilitarian. They want gods to be dark and indifferent. They want real effort to matter over a magical mcguffin, and a heroic sacrifice should never be cheapen by a <i>resurrection</i> spell. They have no issue with creatures like Beholders because they are strange and unique, but if they crop up a lot, then they loose all their charm. They dont like morality plays because it feels patronizing, and motivation driven on the fulfilling some epic destiny is seen as really garish. And yes, they are drawn to the more shallow, hedonistic elements of S&S, but there is noting really wrong about that, as long as they keep their heads about themselves - thankfully, they are usually more mature about handling such these things then most.<br /><br />REH fans dont reject Tolkien outright (a good number of them are still enjoy reading Tolkien), they just prefer Howard's rawness and pacing over Tolkien's flavourful prose. All-and-all, it all about apples and oranges.Malcadonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111796978336546944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54749559563479493172009-10-20T18:10:07.364-04:002009-10-20T18:10:07.364-04:00Timeshadows:
Nice.
Thoroughness rules.
(Though we...Timeshadows:<br />Nice.<br />Thoroughness rules.<br /><br />(Though we all know that, otherwise we wouldn't be reading Grognardia.)Zak Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05443268280676127815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49296219663332603752009-10-20T18:09:44.813-04:002009-10-20T18:09:44.813-04:00@Timeshadows
If you want an RPG informed by Gene ...@Timeshadows<br /><br />If you want an RPG informed by Gene Wolfe, look no further than D&D. Wolfe just ripped off Vance, after all.<br /><br />"What if ones doesn't subscribe to the concept of futility of human existence"<br /><br />Then one is deluded.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25660394893892384272009-10-20T18:07:00.643-04:002009-10-20T18:07:00.643-04:00Timeshadows: I agree, that in creating new things,...Timeshadows: I agree, that in creating new things, it's nice to go back to the roots. After all, much of what made Tolkien & Howard great was their 20th-Century spin on old folklore and mythology.<br /><br />But, again, I come back to the whole "only call yourself Howardian if you are Howardian". Kenneth Hite was very lucid in his assertions of Howard's influence on his setting, and unlike too many, he actually succeeds.<br /><br />So while I might not be able to say much about DAR's gaming sensibilities, I think of myself being in a position to see if Hite's proclamations of "Howardianism" stand up, and in my opinion, they do.Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58663302933173814192009-10-20T17:17:08.328-04:002009-10-20T17:17:08.328-04:00@ James M: So you did. My apologies for jumping t...@ James M: So you did. My apologies for jumping that particular gun. Thank you for pointing it out. :)<br /><br />@ Crow: Interesting choices you've presented. Perhaps the conclusion is partially based on the sort of men you chose to illustrate your point. I'll have to ponder what you have said.<br /><br />@ Zak: Perhaps.<br /><br />@ Bulldada: Yay! K.E. Wagner! :D I wonder if there are any other RPGs which are more informed by themes present in Tanith Lee's works than the old boy's fraternity. Even C. S. Lewis, Gene Wolfe, or Ray Bradbury?<br /><br />@ Taranaich: I can see your point. I was suggesting, though, that earlier strains of the Archetypal struggles are perhaps a better source for 'starting fresh' or even basing one's views to then write from, rather than trying to plumb the depths of their 20th century re-writers.<br />--I often choose to write from a stylistic perspective, or even theoretical perspective that I do not personally hold, so as to challenge myself to write from the character's PoV, rather than one I am intimately familiar with. Well, at least I start that way, and then the -self- takes over and I'm then writing an outsider's view of my personal reality, as you suggest.<br />---Good things to think about from a fiction perspective, but I don't see much correlation to gaming, for reasons elucidated by other posters.<br /><br />Nice discussion; good topic, too. :DTimeshadowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09952601433965644275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70036485332773211122009-10-20T17:08:25.924-04:002009-10-20T17:08:25.924-04:00I don't think its fair to call HPL a racist, a...I don't think its fair to call HPL a racist, as he was simply a man of his era.<br /><br />While it would certainly be true, so too would it be true of all most all writers, academics, politicians, artists and prophets throughout human history. <br /><br />Even Abraham Lincoln would be considered a disgusting racist by today's standards, that does not diminish his standing, for taking one of the early steps out the culture of his era.Zzarchovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07714805545939725730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61645672889073923982009-10-20T17:06:38.813-04:002009-10-20T17:06:38.813-04:00I agree with the overall sentiment of the post, bu...I agree with the overall sentiment of the post, but do RPGs really <i>need</i> deeper themes? Not that I think that James is suggesting they do, but they are games after all. <br /><br />Also, I think by struggling too hard to keep players on the same page thematically, one runs the risk of forcing a story (though not necessarily a plot) on the group. That's rarely a good thing, in my opinion.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00862556389958594140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34778999965009986732009-10-20T16:52:57.819-04:002009-10-20T16:52:57.819-04:00The problem with pioneers is that they get judged ...The problem with pioneers is that they get judged by different standards. The sucessors to Tolkien and Howard may not have the philosophical orientations of the pioneers but they still form a pastiche that the genre is still richer from it.<br /><br />Similarly, for all the Role Aids, it had to culminate into something better. One has to play through some of sloth in order to get something greater later on.<br /><br />I realize that when I am playing Traveller. There is alot of what people call "bureaucratic play" say unlike Feng Shui but through that sloth elements of greatness shine through.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61587573910516583912009-10-20T16:40:15.984-04:002009-10-20T16:40:15.984-04:00... And I just realised I called the film "Wh...... And I just realised I called the film "When Eagles Dare": it's "WHERE Eagles Dare", of course. Poor Shakespeare'll be doing cartwheels at Holy Trinity!Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72167217168274754542009-10-20T16:35:55.107-04:002009-10-20T16:35:55.107-04:00James: Al Harron here. Thanks for taking the time ...James: Al Harron here. Thanks for taking the time to read my review, and I'm rather amazed at the response and discussion gathered. Ultimately, my problem with things being insufficiently "Howardian" is only with the poor pastiches and otherwise that purport to do Howard justice, but fail, either because they mistakenly go for the fluffy High Adventure style of "Conan the Destroyer", or they turn the whole exercise into a Gor fantasy.<br /><br />As such, I think "Day After Ragnorok" successfully achieves that sense of "man as ant" while imbuing it with enough defiant energy at the situation that shows human ingenuity at its best.<br /><br />This is essentially what separates Tolkien & Howard from Lovecraft, in my opinion. In Lovecraft, the universe is doomed and there ain't much you can do but gibber blasphemously in the foetal position and pray Cthulhu eats you first. With Tolkien, sure the magic's leaving the world, but with the death of elves and dwarves comes the birth of man: after the Old People pass, the new people step up to the future. And with Howard, the universe may be cold and indifferent, but by Crom you'll live deep while you live, living, laughing and loving until out, out, brief candle.<br /><br />So while Tolkien & Howard are both surprisingly dark and nowhere near as twee and safe as certain commentators assert, that's not to say there isn't a bright light to mark the beacon of hope.<br /><br />Timeshadows: I would like to point out that it isn't necessarily that I agree with Howard's/Tolkien's/Lovecraft's worldviews or consider them inherently superior to different ones, but that their writings are so deep-rooted in their personal philosophies that, in order for something to be "Howardian" or "Tolkienian", it has to be more than simply including certain tropes they utilised. It's the difference between choosing to emulate the message, and emulating the form the message takes.<br /><br />I would be a rather poorly-read person indeed if I only read work which I considered to follow those author's example out of principle, but my main point is that if you're going to call something Howardian - or Tolkienian or Lovecraftian - then it should bear more similarity than surface elements.<br /><br />For example, "Where Eagles Dare" and "Saving Private Ryan" are both films set in World War 2. There the surface elements are the same: it features American soldiers fighting Nazis in the European war theatre. Yet there is much different about the films too, to the point where they are fundamentally of different temperament: one is a heroic, fun adventure, the other a sombre, dark drama.<br /><br />Thus if someone was going to make a new adaptation of "When Eagles Dare" I'd be very nonplussed if they altered the tone to resemble "Saving Private Ryan". It's for the same reason that the horrible "Dungeons & Dragons" film was rightly panned despite the apparently "Tolkienesque" elements of elves, dwarves, dragons and such.<br /><br />So ultimately, sure, I'd be interested in any literature or RPG which serves as a dramatic counterpoint to Howard/Tolkien: I just ask that said literature doesn't try to call itself what it ain't.Taranaichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176999342965850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57250921462757862192009-10-20T16:33:00.290-04:002009-10-20T16:33:00.290-04:00"IMHO" Zak. At least until somebody brea..."IMHO" Zak. At least until somebody breaks out the Astral Yardstick of Subjective Measurement. I appreciate the writing of plenty of guys (and gals) who were more interested in selling than propounding some quasi-mystical artistic vision. That's just the reality of needing to make a living. Many authors were able to "have fun with it" and put bread on the table at the same time. Very few were so successful that they could indulge in writing whatever they felt like.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17285645317925993821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65993704956473951262009-10-20T16:31:54.056-04:002009-10-20T16:31:54.056-04:00I liked Timeshadow's comment. Maybe the Old Wa...I liked Timeshadow's comment. Maybe the Old Ways are a mess of cultural contradiction that it's best to overcome?<br /><br />My own favorite 1970s pulp author is Karl Edward Wagner who edited a lot of Conan stuff I understand. <br /><br />I read mostly 'High Lit" fantasy like Tolkien and LeGuinn. Most of the pulp stuff is not girl friendly in more ways than one, but I've read enough of the B-Stringer stuff like Lin Carter to know that Robert Howard was a much better writer on several levels.lazycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08391072231837230851noreply@blogger.com