tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1431664002553004502..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Two PossibilitiesJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90313166487934933232009-02-18T22:31:00.000-05:002009-02-18T22:31:00.000-05:00The forbidden island idea is something I'd like to...The forbidden island idea is something I'd like to see developed. I worked on an island setting for my homebrew a couple years back but the native islanders weren't remnants from an ancient advanced culture, the natives instead were young and blessed with a homeland that was rich in natural and magical resources. This made them powerful, but not evil. Adventurers arrive on an island as citizens of an empire who is intent on colonizing the island so it's sort of a frontier type of scenario.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70580748753721524192008-05-15T09:42:00.000-04:002008-05-15T09:42:00.000-04:00Re: DCCThe Dungeon Crawl Classics line are pretty ...Re: DCC<BR/><BR/>The <I>Dungeon Crawl Classics</I> line are pretty much a paradigmatic example of nostalgia products rather than old school ones. With a few exceptions, they concentrate on the externals of the old school modules rather than their actual content. <BR/><BR/>Which is fine. I think many of the DCC modules were among the best produced in the 3e era, but they're mostly very modern in their design and sensibilities, despite the blue and white cartography and amateurish interior art.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78061536737082168482008-05-15T01:25:00.000-04:002008-05-15T01:25:00.000-04:00I fell in love w/ C&C after the announcement of 4e...I fell in love w/ C&C after the announcement of 4e. In fact, it's so well done that, I'm teaching both of my daughters.<BR/><BR/>That said, I'm a total hard-core swords and sorcery nut job. I love the "feel" of oder modules... Lost City and Night's Dark Terror are two of my faves... Now, although Goodman Games produces the Dungeon Crawl Classics, I don't feel that they're a decent representative of that ever elusive "feel" that I had mentioned previously. I'm not knocking DCCs, I like them, they're just not exactly what I'm looking for.<BR/><BR/>So, in lieu of my rather verbose and nonsensical rant, I'd purchase your Lost Isle at the drop of a hat.<BR/><BR/>End Game sounds pretty cool too. But I'm partial to adventures. I read through them and cherry pick all day long.Gamer Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05006232842482959060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27092755937062182332008-05-14T12:32:00.000-04:002008-05-14T12:32:00.000-04:00I concur about the C&C rules. Maybe it's the D20 e...I concur about the C&C rules. Maybe it's the D20 elements they've inserted, but it just feels ever-so-off-kilter to me. That doesn't stop me from buying it all, of course, if for no other reason than to support a company whose heart is in the right place. <BR/><BR/>The modules (CZ!) are especially interesting to me, as I can use them in my AD&D campaign with next to no conversion.<BR/><BR/>JoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79952486624252898312008-05-14T12:09:00.000-04:002008-05-14T12:09:00.000-04:00C&C is a great system and I agree that, of the var...C&C is a great system and I agree that, of the various "neo-retro" games out there it's the one with the biggest following and has had the most commercial success. It's not quite what I want, though, and key elements of the system aren't open, so I'd require a license from Troll Lords, so I'm looking at other options, at least for the moment.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65853015124796718212008-05-13T22:18:00.000-04:002008-05-13T22:18:00.000-04:00ry, very insightful comment here. I may have to ex...<I>ry, very insightful comment here. I may have to expand on it at some point, because I think it bears repeating.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks. I've been working on it 30 years or so. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56768391997916207482008-05-13T17:31:00.000-04:002008-05-13T17:31:00.000-04:00There are people who think Keep on the Borderlands...<I>There are people who think Keep on the Borderlands is "broken?" The mind boggles. It's about as close to perfect as old school D&D gets.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, well, you might have the best power drill in the world, but if you try to use it as a hammer you just end up with a bent nail, a broken drill, bruised knuckles, and a lot of anger and frustration.<BR/><BR/>- Briantrollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49497893715031628122008-05-13T16:51:00.000-04:002008-05-13T16:51:00.000-04:00I like both ideas, of course, but I agree with the...I like both ideas, of course, but I agree with the comment that there are lots of adventures out there, while Endgame is something new that also fills an obvious gap. If I had to choose, I'd choose Endgame.<BR/><BR/>In terms of appealing to a wide audience, would you consider publishing it for Castles and Crusades? I like all Old School systems, but C&C seems to be the most commercially thriving, as well being the most compatible with 3e. I can't imagine Osric, LL or BFRPG ever becoming a major part of the RPG scene, but I can imagine C&C doing so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63828993445646680532008-05-13T16:04:00.000-04:002008-05-13T16:04:00.000-04:00I think this lack has colored a lot of folks' idea...<I>I think this lack has colored a lot of folks' idea of what "old school" campaigns were like.</I><BR/><BR/>Very, very insightful comment here. I may have to expand on it at some point, because I think it bears repeating.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78850210849115240742008-05-13T16:00:00.000-04:002008-05-13T16:00:00.000-04:00There are people who think Keep on the Borderlands...There are people who think <I>Keep on the Borderlands</I> is "broken?" The mind boggles. It's about as close to perfect as old school <I>D&D</I> gets.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35935074582506062502008-05-13T14:39:00.000-04:002008-05-13T14:39:00.000-04:00I think one of the vast ironies of "old school" A/...I think one of the vast ironies of "old school" A/D&D is that we were never given an example of how the game was actually played in its earliest formative years.<BR/><BR/>That is, all of the modules that TSR came out with early on were, by necessity, tournament modules. They were linear, with a defined goal, and the proverbial Boss guarding the Treasure Room. This, I think, is where Goodman Games gets their inspiration from; modules like the G or A series.<BR/><BR/>However, as is clear from reading not only accounts of the Greyhawk, Maure Castle, etc. campaigns, as well as the PH and DMG (as well as the LBB's) is that the original original campaigns were centered on a single, vast dungeon complex with no particular singular goal (at least, none that was immediately known to the PCs; to wit, the "slide to China" on level 13 of Castle Greyhawk). PCs were left to formulate their own goals and pretty much wander about the place killing things and taking their stuff. Smaller self-contained modules (such as S3) were side-treks, rather than the central focus. Yet we never got any model for the mega-dungeon concept back in the day; it was all tournament modules. I think this lack has colored a lot of folks' idea of what "old school" campaigns were like.<BR/><BR/>I've been thinking that there might be a market for modular mega-dungeon levels (or groups of levels) that could either be inserted into a DM's own mega-dungeon complex or pieced together to form a singular whole. Seems to me that would be a lot more genuinely old-school than most of us realize...<BR/><BR/>Joe<BR/><BR/>PS - I also like the "Treasure Maps" idea; lots of good ideas here for an enterprising budding game publisher.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13132286818066108372008-05-13T14:33:00.000-04:002008-05-13T14:33:00.000-04:00Glad you like the idea. While I’d be interes...Glad you like the idea. While I’d be interested in the other two products, I’d snap up a “treasure maps” style product in an instant.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21807228380310902122008-05-13T14:30:00.000-04:002008-05-13T14:30:00.000-04:00I'd also take a look at Dr. Rotwang's recent revie...I'd also take a look at Dr. Rotwang's recent review of <I>Darthanon Queen</I>, also by Judges Guild. <BR/><BR/>http://xbowvsbuddha.blogspot.com/2008/05/hey-how-about-if-i-review-darthanon.html<BR/><BR/>By suggesting multiple spins on the same location, you can demonstrate why <I>Keep on the Borderlands</I> isn't a broken module. :p<BR/><BR/>- Briantrollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47680475254204450012008-05-13T12:34:00.000-04:002008-05-13T12:34:00.000-04:00Re: Book of Ruins and Book of Treasure MapsThat's ...Re: Book of Ruins and Book of Treasure Maps<BR/><BR/>That's actually a really brilliant idea and one that might achieve what I want with less trouble and immediate expense. I just commented earlier today to a friend that Judges Guild is the model of what I want to do. Guess I should have taken my own advice. :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10021720223421096132008-05-13T12:33:00.000-04:002008-05-13T12:33:00.000-04:00Re: Old SchoolWhile I think there are many legitim...Re: Old School<BR/><BR/>While I think there are many legitimate usages of the term, when I use the term I mean it to refer only to the content and style of play that existed in the hobby between 1974 and 1983 or thereabouts. It's fuzzy, yes, because there are many things within those nine years that aren't old school and some after 1983 that are, but that's what I generally mean.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2066263379731296632008-05-13T11:58:00.000-04:002008-05-13T11:58:00.000-04:00Another kind of product that I think would be good...Another kind of product that I think would be good is something along the lines of the JG <I>Book of treasure maps</I> and <I>Book of ruins</I>.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67953757456097863602008-05-13T11:46:00.000-04:002008-05-13T11:46:00.000-04:00“It’d also take a lot more work to do ...“It’d also take a lot more work to do properly, which is why I might need to do something else beforehand to set the stage.”<BR/><BR/>Yeah. I think both <I>The Forbidden Isle</I> and <I>Endgame</I> would be ambitious projects. If I were you, I would want to do the module first, but I’d also want to come up with something even smaller to start with.<BR/><BR/>A short “side trek” sort of adventure? A short work expounding on lesser-known aspects of the low-to-mid-level game? Something concerning the endgame but focusing on a particular part of it?Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10714832148599809132008-05-13T11:40:00.001-04:002008-05-13T11:40:00.001-04:00Actually, I would like to rephrase your question t...Actually, I would like to rephrase your question to 'Which of these should I do <I>first</I>?'<BR/><BR/>In which case, I would think starting with simpler and then move on to the more complex.<BR/><BR/>[Switching to elf mode]OTOH, if you aren't really going to do both, I would tend to agree with Arthur's comments and go with Endgame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43516556258881042232008-05-13T11:40:00.000-04:002008-05-13T11:40:00.000-04:00Re: Necromancer and Goodman's output not being gen...Re: Necromancer and Goodman's output not being genuinely "old school"...<BR/><BR/>The thing is, I'm not convinced that the best response to that situation is to put out Yet Another Module which will be lost in the tide (seriously, everyone and his mother is putting out modules these days). At best, you'll be a lonely voice wailing in the storm; unlikely to be heard, since you'll quite likely be drowned out by the likes of Goodman and Necromancer.<BR/><BR/>It's difficult. On one hand, I can see why it would be a bad thing to let Goodman et al. define "old school" as "linear adventures". On the other hand, I'm increasingly of the opinion that the true definition of "old school" is "the style of play you started out with, provided that you've been roleplaying for at least a decade".<BR/><BR/>For someone who started out playing through the Dragonlance modules and their successors, linear adventures are "old school". Heck, I've seen people on World of Darkness forums talking about the older WoD games as being "old school".Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082868759668427041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36772186378252645352008-05-13T11:38:00.000-04:002008-05-13T11:38:00.000-04:00Let me say, at this point, that Endgame is just an...Let me say, at this point, that <I>Endgame</I> is just an idea and a pretty inchoate one at that. I do not have any of the details worked out or indeed a strong sense of what it would include or not include. So, unfortunately, until I do, I have no answers to the very many excellent questions people have posed here and elsewhere. All <BR/><BR/>I can say at this point is this: I think there's a need for a book that details the ins and outs of high-level old school play. That's never really been done before except in a vague way. My own interest isn't so much in making lots of new rules -- though there'd have to be some -- so much as providing lots of advice and examples to inspire others in their own games. Beyond that, I have no specifics yet and won't for some time. This is still very early, so I hope everyone will bear with me as I sort out what I want to do and how I will proceed.<BR/><BR/>Thanks.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50984023111853548212008-05-13T11:27:00.000-04:002008-05-13T11:27:00.000-04:00Re: AdventuresIt's true, I think, the old school m...Re: Adventures<BR/><BR/>It's true, I think, the old school market isn't exactly suffering from a lack of adventure modules. Indeed, I'd argue that there are in fact too many of them out there (the reasons for which I really should write about soon). However, I think far too many of the putatively old school modules out there these days -- those by Necromancer and Goodman, particularly -- aren't really old school at all. They are much more plot-drive and modern to be called old school unironically and many of them contain concepts that are thoroughly modern. So, I think there's room for more truly old school adventures. <BR/><BR/>That said, <I>Endgame</I> (or whatever I call it) does seem to be something a lot of people would enjoy and that hasn't been done to death in an old school context. It'd also take a lot more work to do properly, which is why I might need to do something else beforehand to set the stage.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29774067208433886652008-05-13T11:23:00.000-04:002008-05-13T11:23:00.000-04:00Allan,Thanks for the link. I often forget about th...Allan,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link. I often forget about the existence of the <I>Oerth Journal</I>. Lots of great stuff in there.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20371097779067790332008-05-13T11:06:00.000-04:002008-05-13T11:06:00.000-04:00I'm still curious about what exactly you envisage ...I'm still curious about what exactly you envisage <I>Endgame</I> to be James. It's sounding to me like for the most part it will be twofold: 1) rules for building and maintaining a domain in terms of cost as well as resources that can be developed and 2) something along the lines of wargame rules where you would take your armies out into the game world to expand your holdings/powers. <BR/><BR/>Is number 2 the case? If not what actual 'role-play' elements do you see in the endgame level of play? How does a character who is now in effect a warlord of some kind continue on an adventure path without either getting into the high-level superheroics you mentioned or becoming merely the figurehead (in game-play terms) leader of an army fighting a wargame?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9253686307859878132008-05-13T10:53:00.000-04:002008-05-13T10:53:00.000-04:00I don’t think you need to appeal to both the...I don’t think you need to appeal to both the grognards <I>and</I> “old school curious”. As you say, the grogs have everything they need, so why target them at all? If you want to grow the “old school movement”, target the curious.<BR/><BR/>(Although, I think there are a lot of us who fall somewhere in the middle, too.)<BR/><BR/>I think both ideas sound fantastic. While there may be modules targeting the grogs, are there a lot that are targeting the curious?<BR/><BR/>The <I>Endgame</I> is something that I also think could use more exploration. I have nothing wrong with the “I don’t want the nature of the game to change at higher levels” point-of-view. That’s fine for them who like it.<BR/><BR/>But I think more consideration needs to be given to the alternative. The idea that the single-digit levels are the “colored belts”. They’re training. Name level is black-belt. You’ve completed your training. You’ve mastered the basic skills of your class, and so it is no longer about improving your basic skills. It’s about becoming an “adult” PC. About taking your place in the world. That needs to be explored in a manner that isn’t about mass-combat rules or war machines or domain management systems.<BR/><BR/>And there is some room for some random tables there. What’s the <I>Endgame</I> equivalent of the random dungeon generator?Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8844499595331618472008-05-13T09:01:00.000-04:002008-05-13T09:01:00.000-04:00Let me preface this comment by saying I would buy ...Let me preface this comment by saying I would buy either product as soon as it was offered. I like both ideas.<BR/><BR/>If forced to choose, however, I would choose your Forbidden Isle concept. I would argue that there really is a dearth of adventure support for A/D&D; bear in mind that only a couple of the Dungeon Crawl Classics are actually converted to AD&D rules, the vast majority being written for 3.5.<BR/><BR/>I like the fact that the Isle lends itself to modularity; if successful you can always produce additional modules in the series. (One caveat; it does sound a tad similar to the Lendore Isle series, but I might be wrong.) <BR/><BR/>While I like the concept behind Endgame, I'm wondering just what sort of form it would take. If a supplement, I wonder what "crunch" (to use the modern term) it would include that wasn't included in the DMG, which covers costs of construction, hirelings and soldiery, etc. If an adventure, I'm wondering how you could construct it so that it would be applicable to a contemporary party; construction of strongholds is something of an individual PC effort.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com