tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1662594771928446379..comments2024-03-19T03:02:38.228-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Spell Memorization EffectsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25655270486202395972010-11-16T03:15:26.984-05:002010-11-16T03:15:26.984-05:00My take :
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules....My take :<br />http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3438<br /><br />Your "spell memorization effects" is like eating a little piece of the cake : you keep the whole cake for later use.L. M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06172360793421666463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1538729904369994422010-11-15T21:15:45.027-05:002010-11-15T21:15:45.027-05:00Hmm, the memorization == re-wiring your brain idea...Hmm, the memorization == re-wiring your brain idea is an interesting one, but I'd be inclined to take it the other direction. Allow a MU to take extra spells at the expense of some penalties, perhaps on wisdom (-1 point per level of the spell) to reflect the strain of overburdening your brain. The increasing spell memorization counts for higher levels then represents that their training is allowing their brains to better accomodate more and greater magics.PCBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03645647030605683608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5329017189124181432010-11-15T04:46:43.160-05:002010-11-15T04:46:43.160-05:00@Christian I have read the blog and it's very ...@Christian I have read the blog and it's very interesting (with a lot of magical specialization :) ) and he indeed intend the cost of spell casting for casting spell at 1st level efficiency (this create other problems... it would be better to rewrite all spells with specific effect/cost)<br /><br />@OdRook I am with you, I have read a few time the tales of the dying earth and the big guns (Rhialto and the others) could just memorize an handful of spells they they used a lot of bound creatures and magical objects.<br />I like the idea of casting spell more than once with some risk :)Fabio Milito Pagliarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13043436735116048822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33794318032013451302010-11-15T00:32:43.651-05:002010-11-15T00:32:43.651-05:00A little bit off-topic, but having actually read T...A little bit off-topic, but having actually read The Dying Earth and its sequels, I've come to take exception to the traditional approach to Vancian spellcasting. To wit, so far as I can tell, there's no in-world rule in Vance's writing that actually limits a spell to one casting per day. The few times we see magicians memorizing their spells, they do indeed use each spell but a single time within the story; however, I find no reason to view this as anything but a literary device. <br /><br />That said, the limit on spellcasting is a great element of D&D's resource management aspect, so for my Whitebox-based campaign, I've used the following rules: A spell, once memorized, is not forgotten (save through the arduous process of memorizing a new spell), but it can only be safely cast once per day. A magic-user who dares may recast a spell, but the toll may be steep. In game terms, he takes 1d6 damage immediately upon completion of the spell. (Naturally, I couple this with the "no double dipping" rule: a spell can't be memorized twice any more than can a song or a soliloquy.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26643162498561715332010-11-14T16:39:01.738-05:002010-11-14T16:39:01.738-05:00To Fabio:
I always ran into similar issues. The bi...To Fabio:<br />I always ran into similar issues. The biggest problem I had was that a high level character with many points of mana would be able to blast tons of lower level spells. i.e. a 10th level mage blasting off about 100 magic missiles a day!<br /><br />Take a look at the blog I posted above. He has some great ideas.Christian Kolbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03808999032249180746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10239609663254526612010-11-14T11:25:01.402-05:002010-11-14T11:25:01.402-05:00@Twit I understand it, but as I said not everybody...@Twit I understand it, but as I said not everybody sees it this way, many want to be a "mage"<br /><br />I played mage and illusionist from 1st to about 15th level in 1st edition AD&D and had a lot of fun... but they went from too little to too much :)<br /><br />@Christian with mana you have other problems, in particular if at 20th level a 1st level spell cost just 1 point do I cast it at 1st level effect or at 20th level (I mean do I cast 1 magic missile or 5, do I cast a 5d6 fireball or a 20d6) the system is geared toward a fixed amount of spell mana goes in another directionFabio Milito Pagliarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13043436735116048822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3435268517799536252010-11-13T08:11:45.587-05:002010-11-13T08:11:45.587-05:00I agree think that the "Vancian" system ...I agree think that the "Vancian" system could use some reworking. I have been following Old Skool on his blog House Rules: <br /><br />http://feadad.blogspot.com/ <br /><br />He has some great ideas about alternating the system of memorizing and casting spells. I have found that in my own attempts to house rule a spell point/mana point system, the bookkeeping side of it is always the problem. Tables and charts and points to be calculated... arghh.Christian Kolbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03808999032249180746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33800618505581282432010-11-13T07:30:25.362-05:002010-11-13T07:30:25.362-05:00@Fabio
My observation is that historical/mytholog...@Fabio<br /><br />My observation is that historical/mythological people associated with magic (Hermes, Merlin, Dr. Faustus, Morgan le Fay, witch doctors) are pseudo-scientists, chemists, astrologers, scholars, and charmcasters. Their magic is smoke and mirrors but as a famous saying goes, science is indistinguishable from magic.<br /><br />The common complaint with Vancian casting is how weak a 1st level magic-user is. I disagree when the simple fact remains that the cleaning compounds under your sink can be used to kill a man in 100 different ways. Unfortunately, D&D is at fault for having always pushed alchemy aside despite being an important part of fantasy literature and mythology. Bard Game's The Complete Alchemist (for AD&D) is the only publication (off the top of my mind) that does alchemy justice.Jaekohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10600076715079121740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11036720360862959712010-11-13T06:59:27.914-05:002010-11-13T06:59:27.914-05:00the biggest problem of vancian system is not the f...the biggest problem of vancian system is not the fire and forget but going from 1 single 1st level spell at 1st level to 45 1st to 9th level spell (5 each level) at 25th level!<br />that is 45 time the number of spell and 225 time the total levels of spell ready<br /><br />maybe vancian mage should have the same number (or almost the same number) of spell at each level (say from 3-4 to 7-8) but in gaining levels you can prepare more powerful spells (as in Vance novels btw)<br /><br />than you add lesser powers usable more often or you give the mage the ability to charge magic items like wand and staff....<br /><br />@twitt the problem of your observation is that not everyone want to play an alchemistFabio Milito Pagliarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13043436735116048822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25345101731758004482010-11-12T23:48:44.532-05:002010-11-12T23:48:44.532-05:00This would probably be easier in 4e, due to the pr...This would probably be easier in 4e, due to the prepared spells in 4e being limited in number. I can see it being activated by certain items like tomes, or you could have it replace the cantrips class feature. <br />Thanks for the idea!Claytonianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10427928164050640466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23783390502643401622010-11-12T18:40:20.898-05:002010-11-12T18:40:20.898-05:00Bob: No thank you, don't like that stuff for m...Bob: No thank you, don't like that stuff for my games.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38058457197349106502010-11-12T17:43:45.319-05:002010-11-12T17:43:45.319-05:00For comprehend languages: The caster begins speaki...For comprehend languages: The caster begins speaking in a more poetic mien in the languages he understands. It's not that foreign words slip in, but that he uses more archaic speech and complex structuresSchottenjaegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13171270090207201326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62911727151879497572010-11-12T15:09:00.172-05:002010-11-12T15:09:00.172-05:00@Delta: The additional information needn't be ...@Delta: The additional information needn't be a burden if it's presented correctly. On, say, an individual spell card.Bob Portnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04563075580066984380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66769676857261771342010-11-12T10:31:33.103-05:002010-11-12T10:31:33.103-05:00An incredible idea and something I am going to use...An incredible idea and something I am going to use in my campaigns, Thanks!ERIC!https://www.blogger.com/profile/18251132223571608976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86775998747215342542010-11-12T09:59:35.800-05:002010-11-12T09:59:35.800-05:00@Jeff, I think the reserve feats from Complete Arc...@Jeff, I think the reserve feats from Complete Arcane.<br /><br />And this idea, like the reserve feats, are similar to the psionic focus system from the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook. A psion could 'maintain focus' to have a small ongoing effect, or 'expend focus' to basically cast a spell. <br /><br />I like the idea of holding focus to get minor color effect. I think i've seen it before in OSR-land. But it does require more judgement, and could expand spell descriptions too long. And having lots of spells with different minor effects could make bookkeeping a chore, or make the world less 'magical' feeling. Just like the christmas-tree of magic items in 3rd edition.<br /><br />@toddroe, I remember that story too. I think it was an LL blog. If you want to hear good stories about how bad-ass Level 1 MUs are compared to normal men or Level 1 fighters, I think JB at B/X Blackrazor has some good posts. <br /><br />@theshadowknows, I agree that opening up player-MUs to make scrolls at first level does give them breadth and staying power. Or at least the feeling of staying power. Also, what else are they going to spend money on. I think this rule comes from Holmes Basic.heyjames4https://www.blogger.com/profile/16001886521427679105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15340629078815535072010-11-12T09:49:14.220-05:002010-11-12T09:49:14.220-05:00@i-manticora:
I think it would be also interestin...@i-manticora:<br /><br /><i>I think it would be also interesting to find flaws you get from having spells memorized as well. While you have fly memorized you also have less strength to push or pull weights for instance. The tricky part is balancing pros and cons but if you find a good even it could give a new look at magic.</i><br /><br />This was my first thought as well. Sorcerors and witches in the source literature all have bizarre taboos and weaknesses -- AD&D even addressed this specifically with the M-U class in Oriental Adventures, IIRC. <br /><br />Why not give each memorized spell a positive effect and a weakness or taboo? That actually lets you make the powers a bit more powerful without it being unbalanced. And it lets you have a fire mage who has weaknesses to water-based attacks, a death mage who gets burned by holy symbols, etc. In fact, this would seem to me to be a great way of subsuming M-U sub-classes (clerics, illusionists, druids) into a single class and a unified framework. For example, the cleric's ability to turn undead could actually be tied to having unmemorized spells of healing or Protection From Evil. A magic user's weapon and armor restrictions (or a cleric's ban on edged weapons) could be the result of his repertoire of memorized spells. And so on.<br /><br />Obviously, this would be a major rewrite to D&D. But what I'm describing is only the most extreme version of such a system -- one could certainly adopt it piecemeal.Picadorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01244353406711565712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25164936283882756132010-11-12T09:40:28.215-05:002010-11-12T09:40:28.215-05:00I've always thought this idea sounded cool in ...I've always thought this idea sounded cool in theory but would call for expansion of the spell descriptions to describe the secondary effect. I'm in favor of cutting spell descriptions down rather than lengthening them.<br /><br />While I'm not really a big fan of the Vancian system, it is a great system for a game. What I've done is remove the need to pre-memorize spells. Casters get the same number of slots they've always got and they need to study or meditate as much as they always have. But they get to pick a known spell at casting time rather than picking it at the beginning of the day.<br /><br />I require clerics and druids to have lists of "known" spells rather than allowing them to pick from anything on the list and we require a check to see if multiple castings of the same spell on the same day are successful.<br /><br />This has made spell casters a bit more flexible to play without upping their overall power level and means that the less-memorized spells get used more often because they're available when needed.Lord Kilgorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08100447170529010062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49168828293647284902010-11-12T09:21:48.806-05:002010-11-12T09:21:48.806-05:00@Joseph: when a mage has Read Magic memorized, the...@Joseph: when a mage has Read Magic memorized, there is a constant cirle of arcane symbols circling his head like a halo, appearing and disapperaing, causing a disconcerting effect. For Read Languages, the mage throws in words from other languages he cannot speak at random, kinda like language aphasia.The Badger Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09020950272210873449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9762622991568093852010-11-12T07:01:32.887-05:002010-11-12T07:01:32.887-05:00I had a game in 3.5 where the DM allowed us to jus...I had a game in 3.5 where the DM allowed us to just use our cantrips as much as we wanted. It did not do anything to the balance but made the casters feel more magical. If you let Magic Users have an ability like the spell <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm" rel="nofollow">prestidigitation</a> from 3.5 it would not unbalance anything to much as well as make them feel like they can still do stuff even if they have used all of their spells.Akhier the Dragon Heartedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01982936563965623813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88702270087895449422010-11-12T06:48:34.835-05:002010-11-12T06:48:34.835-05:00On the primary topic, my principal reason for not ...On the primary topic, my principal reason for not going in such a direction would be complexity: it sort of doubles the amount of stuff everyone has to track for any given spell. <br /><br />(Perhaps one might consider what you could cut out of the magic system in exchange for this complexity.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61333970970639865312010-11-12T04:51:32.791-05:002010-11-12T04:51:32.791-05:00Late D&D 3.5 added a mechanic that gave you a ...Late D&D 3.5 added a mechanic that gave you a benefit for having an uncast spell - Reserve Feats. There were Reserve Feats for each school of magic and each element, I think. They all gave you some ability based on having a spell of the appropriate type memorized and uncast; the ability varied by level of the uncast spell in most cases. A bunch of them were attacks, a sort of prelude to 4e at-will abilities, but others were defenses and utility effects.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01272921931873031194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30210097044416425162010-11-12T04:21:06.689-05:002010-11-12T04:21:06.689-05:00I think it would be also interesting to find flaws...I think it would be also interesting to find flaws you get from having spells memorized as well. While you have fly memorized you also have less strength to push or pull weights for instance. The tricky part is balancing pros and cons but if you find a good even it could give a new look at magic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90873479512439531202010-11-12T04:00:52.207-05:002010-11-12T04:00:52.207-05:00I've been using the same explanation for memor...I've been using the same explanation for memorisation as Talysman for years. I lifted it straight out of the Amber books. A sorcerer casts most of a spell while prearing it, but then leaves it "hanging" a word or two away from the end.<br />The magical effect is then kind of hovering around, just waiting for that last key word, ingredient or gesture to trigger it. I even have it so that casting a Detect Magic spell can, with a long enough study period, determine exactly which spells a given spellcaster has "hanging" at any given time.Dangerous Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11494853825931603065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33439405868240779622010-11-12T03:53:15.393-05:002010-11-12T03:53:15.393-05:00I never had a problem with the magic system but th...I never had a problem with the magic system but that may be because of how I thought of it. My idea of it was less of a your memorizing it thing and more of a your loading your brain like you would a gun. You can only have so many a day like a gun can only hold so many bullets and once you fire them you can't do it again till you reload.Akhier the Dragon Heartedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01982936563965623813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23510362617007505642010-11-12T03:22:54.485-05:002010-11-12T03:22:54.485-05:00Twitt: Great example, I also just read The Scarlet...Twitt: Great example, I also just read <i>The Scarlet Citadel</i> for the first time a few days ago. I was struck by the part at the end which showed the first quasi-<i>fireball</i> I'd seen depicted in literature; an explosive grenade physically thrown. If that was how D&D fireballs worked (esp., enormously smaller range), I'd actually prefer that. In general, if the D&D magic effects were at least <i>ambiguously interpretable as physical actions</i>, I think that would've been a very nice guiding principle. (Of course D&D is "big tent" and not really disciplined on that way.)<br /><br />"'I'll blast the flesh from your bones!'... Tsotha's right hand came back and forward, and the king ducked quickly. Something passed by his helmeted head and exploded behind him, searing the very sands with a flash of hellish fire. Before Tsotha could toss the globe in his left hand, Conan's sword sheared through his lean neck." [The Scarlet Citadel]Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.com