tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1763253321096430535..comments2024-03-28T09:41:39.187-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Open Friday: Non-Standard PCsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33836859519657265332010-07-12T18:06:32.266-04:002010-07-12T18:06:32.266-04:00I have just finished cringing my way through the R...<i>I have just finished cringing my way through the Role Playing Mastery book for the second time, hoping to find something useful. I'd LOVE to see it talked about here.</i><br /><br>Yeah, it's an absolutely awful book, but it's useful for research purposes if one is interested in the development of Gygax's thoughts on various matters. I've hesitated to post much about it, out of respect for the man's memory, but I may have to do so anyway, because there's some intriguing stuff in it.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34316915535265846912010-07-12T16:40:20.112-04:002010-07-12T16:40:20.112-04:00Gary loved pole arms like God loves beetles.
I ...Gary loved pole arms like God loves beetles. <br /><br />I have just finished cringing my way through the Role Playing Mastery book for the second time, hoping to find something useful. I'd LOVE to see it talked about here.tim hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17183259514061707097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28621027862919631112010-07-11T17:12:29.437-04:002010-07-11T17:12:29.437-04:00I wonder if anyone has played a Bohemian Ear-Spoon...I wonder if anyone has played a Bohemian Ear-Spoon PC?anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14242161619725712202010-07-11T14:42:51.617-04:002010-07-11T14:42:51.617-04:00"If Gary loved any weapons, it was polearms.&...<i>"If Gary loved any weapons, it was polearms."</i><br /><br />I wonder if anyone has ever taken a "Bohemian Ear-spoon" as their character's weapon? :)Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29436409698107836652010-07-11T13:56:42.982-04:002010-07-11T13:56:42.982-04:00Much of the game was built not around consistency,...<i>Much of the game was built not around consistency, internal logic, game balance, playability or even fun -it was built around what Gygax liked and didn't like.</i><br /><br>Speaking for myself, I like the eccentricity of early <i>D&D</i>, including the fact that many of its rules and assumptions stem from what Gary, Dave, and others liked/disliked or were interested in. I think the game is better for this, even when I disagree with the decisions made by designers. My big beef nowadays is that <i>AD&D</i> surrounded itself with an aura of "official-ness" that discouraged the kind of wild experimentation and disregard for the printed rules that we saw in the early hobby.<br /><br /><i>He loved swords, so they inflict wanked-out damage compared to all other weapons.</i><br /><br>If Gary loved any weapons, it was polearms.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90698310476619395552010-07-11T12:46:28.855-04:002010-07-11T12:46:28.855-04:00Some of the comments about EGG's views regardi...Some of the comments about EGG's views regarding non-standard PCs are nibbling at the edges of the larger problem with Gygax and AD&D:<br /><br />Much of the game was built not around consistency, internal logic, game balance, playability or even fun -it was built around what Gygax liked and didn't like. He didn't like non-human PCs (let alone other creatures) so the game shortchanged them. He loved swords, so they inflict wanked-out damage compared to all other weapons. <br /><br />For me, the AD&D game is like the English language: When you ignore or change some of the more retarded rules, you have something worthwhile.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76872559588681134822010-07-11T12:29:42.437-04:002010-07-11T12:29:42.437-04:00While most PC I've played or DMed for over the...While most PC I've played or DMed for over the years have been human, there have been quite a few non-standard non-humans added to the group. One magic-user hired on some hobgoblins as his personal bodyguard. Another had an ogre as his chief flunky. There have been numerous others (after my PC died, I once played a lizard man who had joined the group).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75765749315584452602010-07-10T15:12:33.208-04:002010-07-10T15:12:33.208-04:00In the 2nd edition Viking Campaign Sourcebook ther...In the 2nd edition Viking Campaign Sourcebook there was an official berserker class, who eventually got the ability to turn into a bear or a wolf, although this wasn't lycanthropy.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43265374550114471492010-07-10T13:41:20.602-04:002010-07-10T13:41:20.602-04:00I think lycanthropic PCs could work if the rules w...<i>I think lycanthropic PCs could work if the rules were done right.</i><br /><br>I do too, but then I have a soft spot for berserkers and so forth.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5504964824526465412010-07-10T13:40:11.611-04:002010-07-10T13:40:11.611-04:00All this stuff brings up the spectre of EGG's ...<i>All this stuff brings up the spectre of EGG's "Roleplaying Mastery" which has not been much dealt with in the OSR probably because it is an embarrassing piece of garbage.</i><br /><br>Funny you should mention that, because I have copies of several of Gygax's post-TSR books on roleplaying and was thinking of discussing them at some point.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74954859314980589902010-07-10T13:18:21.871-04:002010-07-10T13:18:21.871-04:00That AD&D quote really bugs me. It's typic...<i>That AD&D quote really bugs me. It's typical of EGG too - he says how things "should" be, but the rules he actually published don't support that.</i><br /><br>I revere Gary's memory very highly and consider the DMG one of the greatest RPG books ever written, but, yeah, it's full of quotes like this and they really stick in my craw these days.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78853218630915528602010-07-10T13:16:23.842-04:002010-07-10T13:16:23.842-04:00That's AD&D in a nutshell from my experien...<i>That's AD&D in a nutshell from my experience. It paid lip serve to being a game of boundless imagination, but the AD&D iteration of D&D was really all about control - The DM's control of the players and TSR's attempted control of the game and the RPG hobby.</i><br /><br>Shhh! Be careful that you don't say that too loudly or you might upset the delicate sensibilities of some old schoolers. :PJames Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13560848050194446712010-07-10T13:15:16.718-04:002010-07-10T13:15:16.718-04:00I have to say that both views are correct, but Gyg...<i>I have to say that both views are correct, but Gygax is more correct.</i><br /><br>I agree that Gary has a point that some players wanting to create a monster PC are doing so out of a desire to have a more powerful than average starting character, but it seems to that the approach taken in OD&D -- let them be a dragon, but start them off weak -- is much more constructive and useful than that presented in the DMG. I prefer it, at any rate.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42603817845664633792010-07-09T23:24:38.538-04:002010-07-09T23:24:38.538-04:00When I first started playing (BECMI) my DM told me...When I first started playing (BECMI) my DM told me to roll up 4 PC's since I would have to play multiple characters at times. I made an elf, 2 fighters, and a cleric. A couple weeks later I was in an old hobby shop looking at mini's and saw an orc with a polearm. I bought it, and told my DM I was dropping the clric and wanted to play an orc.<br /><br />At first he didn't want that. There was no rules for it. Orcs were bad guys. In the end, I made Og the orc (used fighter rules for him).<br /><br />years later when playing a 2e game I wanted to make a lizardman PC. Wasn't allowed, so I quit the game. Came back a month later, but the funny thing was that as this campaign progressed all us players found ourselves playing multiple characters with many being non-playable races. I was given the most PC's to play (my DM liked my characters) including a pech, kech(sp), demi-god, and a half-orc.<br /><br />So it's safe to say I'm open to monsters as characters, though now I prefer a human-centric game and not the current multi-racial centric game the game has become.<br /><br />its funny that Gygax would write this rule consider how many monster characters his game seemed to have thanks to cohorts and reincarnation resurrection.Veilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629417071588107833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89743748399835095042010-07-09T20:09:18.620-04:002010-07-09T20:09:18.620-04:00I played a centaur ranger in a friends gonzo '...I played a centaur ranger in a friends gonzo 'mythic age' game once. It was fun.<br /><br />I also ran a one-shot 'underwater' game with 2e, where the choices were sea-elf, triton, and mer-man/maid. The 'dungeon' was a ship graveyard filled with treasure and drowned undead, sharks and giant crabs, y'know the usual.Hawkmansdaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04113828607067318291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47223083650694189072010-07-09T19:46:05.721-04:002010-07-09T19:46:05.721-04:00Well, about 15 years ago, a good friend and excell...Well, about 15 years ago, a good friend and excellent DM descided to run a classic campaign (three little brown books + thieves, indeed), and told us 'anything tin the original rules is what we are playing. As kind of a joke/dare, I pointed out the text in my edition which indicated that one could play as a balrog (later made to read "dragon", BTW), as long as one started at level one, etc etc. <br /><br />Well to my surprise, he took me up on it, and developed the level progression and powers of a "baby balrog" -and the brilliant mechanism that I could only gain EP from eating magic items. Brilliant. Not only did nesbitt not wreck the game, it added a neat tension between him and the party about when he should level up, and what items could be sacrificed. Plus, playing a 1HD balrog isn't as munchkinny as it seems -one gang of goblins one knocked him out him, and were unbreakable therafter "we killed a balrog ? WE KILLED A BALROG ! WE RULE ! CHARGECHARGECHARGECHARGECHARGEKILLKILLKILLKILLKILL!!!!!!!!!! !"Doc Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04084635785043015262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27530197156583695992010-07-09T16:47:14.315-04:002010-07-09T16:47:14.315-04:00Usually if somebody wants to play a nonstandard mo...Usually if somebody wants to play a nonstandard monster race, we just agree what class it would be and go from there. In the session I played as recently as yesterday, one of my players expressed a desire to be a minotaur. We decided that he was mechanically a Fighter, albeit a tall one with horns, and continued on our way.<br /><br />Verification: antle. Singular of "antlers".Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08596442998967851832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14896520852068268712010-07-09T15:26:21.320-04:002010-07-09T15:26:21.320-04:00@Brunomac
Thanks! And pass my appreciation onto ...@Brunomac<br /><br />Thanks! And pass my appreciation onto Thursty for taking his goblin companion *semi* seriously.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15833731550989756982010-07-09T14:12:49.590-04:002010-07-09T14:12:49.590-04:00Brian: I got a kick out of the feeding habits, and...Brian: I got a kick out of the feeding habits, and also of the "spider in a sack on a stick" action. <br /><br />WV: "spleeff" - no doubt!Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36713985128907389532010-07-09T14:10:46.347-04:002010-07-09T14:10:46.347-04:00I love 1st ed. and it's what I still mostly DM...I love 1st ed. and it's what I still mostly DM. But those Gygax comments about how you should allow weird PC's but should also perform this song and dance for the player convincing them what a shitty time the player will have with his de-powered PC version of a monster - well, not a lot to respect in that attitude. What a truely shitty way to come at the problem: allow it, but make it sound sucky enough that they won't want to do it. Give me a damn break, GG. <br /><br />In the 80's in my game it seemed that most of my players wanted weirdo races and monsters for characters. And when I played I often wanted something unique. But since the 90's my players have seemed to be satisfied with playing the basic classes and races. Thank God.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46960394916994808872010-07-09T14:00:26.592-04:002010-07-09T14:00:26.592-04:00This is the kind of thing I very much oppose in ge...This is the kind of thing I very much oppose in general , but would probably tolerate and even enjoy in the particular. ("He just not like other gray oozes.")<br /><br />Besides the power-gaming tendency, there is also the star-billing-role-player-tendance. The exoticism and humor of being a fish-headed druid requires being surrounded by compartiively "normal" types. As a player of one of those other characters, I might resent being constantly upstaged. And I may be speaking from my own guilty experience of playing a goblin in James's on-line dwimmermount game! I don't know if other players enjoyed his disgusting diet as much as I did.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24918234683621396132010-07-09T14:00:26.593-04:002010-07-09T14:00:26.593-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57065023050258095162010-07-09T12:55:28.726-04:002010-07-09T12:55:28.726-04:00I just found your blog recently and got to say I&#...I just found your blog recently and got to say I've really been enjoying the read. <br /><br />Now to actually contribute: my first serious D&D character (2nd edition, I'm 'semi-young'), was a centaur. The GM also allowed Oriental Adventures classes and so she was a 'Sohei', and that turned out to be a pretty tricked out character overall. I really liked playing her though. So I definitely cannot speak out against monster characters, depending on the game! The game I am currently running however is PHB races only just to keep the tweaks sane for me. Maybe I'll allow more unusual races next time I start a campaign.Amanda Langehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07951412792441239737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51851638019363745692010-07-09T11:02:08.305-04:002010-07-09T11:02:08.305-04:00My players never even wanted to roll up a half-orc...My players never even wanted to roll up a half-orc, much less attempt a non-typical character.<br /><br />One of my groups was all human because they wanted to roll play a world where demi-humans and non-humans were all pretty much distrusted or disliked.<br /><br />There were some opportunities in a couple games to have players temporarily roll play monsters... such as when a Doppelganger took someone out or when a character contracted lycanthropy. Those were mixed bags depending on the acting skills of the player.Praetoriushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615267701681202292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66421341284417095042010-07-09T10:08:46.403-04:002010-07-09T10:08:46.403-04:00My favorite character ever was a lizard man played...My favorite character ever was a lizard man played in a campaign jointly run by Delta and Paul. <br /><br />As they were setting up the campaign, they added in a couple of new PC playable races to spice things up, lizard men and brownies. <br /><br />I started with a brownie, but he died a quick, kinda pathetic death, and then Zzapokk stepped onto the stage with a flourish. <br /><br />We were playing 3rd. ed., so the whole character level handicap thing for monsters came into play, but I was fine with that. <br /><br />He was a total hoot to play, as he brought a very alien POV with him. Somewhere between a noble savage and a bull crocodile. <br /><br />I loved talking in the voice I'd come up with for him (often continuing in the voice after play was over.)and calling my fellow PC's "Mammal." when I spoke to them in character. Glorious!<br /><br />Yeah, I likes me some nonstandard PC classes. There's a certain timeworn comfiness about good ol' elves n' dwarves, but they kinda get banal after a while.BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.com