tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1805267574043464553..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Open Friday: The Role of Retro-ClonesJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70983498678418504702010-09-05T16:19:04.642-04:002010-09-05T16:19:04.642-04:00"I don't recall anybody playing Original ..."I don't recall anybody playing Original D&D exactly as it was written, and practically everybody I knew "back in the day" made their own rules modifications to suit the game they wanted to play."<br /><br />Of course they did. Why wouldn't they? They all started from the same place, however: The TSR rulebooks. My thesis is simply that that "place" is worth preserving as it was.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75402440098873048512010-09-05T16:00:23.588-04:002010-09-05T16:00:23.588-04:00Having started gaming under Original D&D, I...Having started gaming under Original D&D, I'm struck by how offended people get by various minor variations or changes introduced by the retro-clones. I don't recall anybody playing Original D&D exactly as it was written, and practically <i>everybody</i> I knew "back in the day" made their own rules modifications to suit the game they wanted to play. At this stage of things, I think the variety of retro-clones is actually something of an advantage - it ensures that gamers have choices about what to play.<br /><br />I rather suspect there are similar debates going on about how much Pathfinder varies from the original 3.5 Ed. rulebooks (with about as much actual effect).Victor Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05928494560036528653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1875801471481378442010-09-04T12:41:49.960-04:002010-09-04T12:41:49.960-04:00I'd just like to see as-slavishly-accurate-as-...<i>I'd just like to see as-slavishly-accurate-as-the-law-allows "clone" versions of every classic D&D rules set on the market first, before their cousins start proliferating.</i><br /><br>Me too. LBB OD&D is admittedly difficult to clone, because it's so idiosyncratic, but I think it can be done and I think it's worth doing. It's definitely a project I've often considered, but I simply lack the time to take it up right now.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20310122342347708162010-09-04T12:40:26.012-04:002010-09-04T12:40:26.012-04:00*cough* Original Edition Characters*cough* ;-)
I k...<i>*cough* Original Edition Characters*cough* ;-)</i><br /><br>I keep saying this to people, but, for some reason, they don't seem to be listening. Seriously, OEC is, at this time, the closest thing to a LBB clone out there and I can't tell you how useful it's been to me in my Dwimmermount campaign.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9936821142561726152010-09-04T00:15:20.181-04:002010-09-04T00:15:20.181-04:00Joe, Chuck is my real name, and if you do a search...Joe, Chuck is my real name, and if you do a search for RPGObjects, a company I worked for from 2002 until around 2009, you might have an idea why I feel strongly about this.<br /><br />I've authored around 100 RPG books in PDF, about 20 in print, all under the OGL.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8322116346485724272010-09-04T00:12:28.320-04:002010-09-04T00:12:28.320-04:00RPGObjects_chuck: Since you're not using your ...RPGObjects_chuck: Since you're not using your real name, and your blogger profile is hidden, I have no idea who you are, or why you might have strong feelings on this or any other subject.Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78822806080712546192010-09-03T23:06:45.445-04:002010-09-03T23:06:45.445-04:00As you might imagine, I have strong feelings on th...As you might imagine, I have strong feelings on the subject. <br /><br />I feel the clones should exist to allow work compatible with out of print editions of D&D, to the extent that such are allowed under the OGL. <br /><br />I think such compatible works serve a role in keeping older games fresh and interesting.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21935795010577168012010-09-03T21:01:06.163-04:002010-09-03T21:01:06.163-04:00"Think of it as a retro-cousin. Shared geneti..."Think of it as a retro-cousin. Shared genetics, but not identical."<br /><br />And that's great. I'd just like to see as-slavishly-accurate-as-the-law-allows "clone" versions of every classic D&D rules set on the market first, before their cousins start proliferating. <br /><br />I'd like to see the community as a whole insure that faithful reproductions of the legacy rules are available free to all before we start worrying about propagating our own individual house rules. It's just a matter of priorities.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45279234696063229572010-09-03T20:30:29.777-04:002010-09-03T20:30:29.777-04:00"If a game tries to be anything other than a ..."If a game tries to be anything other than a completely faithful reproduction of an out of print game, then it is not a retroclone. "<br /><br />Think of it as a retro-cousin. Shared genetics, but not identical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18544258295892329242010-09-03T19:00:56.220-04:002010-09-03T19:00:56.220-04:00S&W WB is one of my all time favorite games. I...S&W WB is one of my all time favorite games. I like ascending AC and having one saving throw. A lot. However, as to its ultimate role- I don't care.<br />It does what I need it to do, which is provide a simple platform on which I can build (and easily share) my own stuff. I've recently read through a portion of one of the LBBs and I can't say that I'm interested in using them at the table. White Box did something that I wouldn't have thought possible: it brought me back to classic D&D (or within spitting distance, anyway): and that's pretty awesome.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44207110112761763942010-09-03T17:01:47.938-04:002010-09-03T17:01:47.938-04:00I guess you can add me to the "S&W has to...I guess you can add me to the "S&W has too many rules changes/additions" chorus. I'd love to see a new stab at the game where the author decides to look more to Labyrinth Lord and OSRIC for examples of proper faithfulness to the source material and to leave his own "improvements" in his house rules binder where they belong.<br /><br />I'm not worried about anything "replacing" classic Gygaxian-era TSR D&D. That game (collectively, in all its iterations) is a masterpiece.<br /><br />Clones are just a way to distibute classic D&D rules for free in an aesthetically-pleasing form and to encourage the publishing of new classic D&D support materials. I don't see them as their own games at all.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15431946121821901712010-09-03T16:49:04.961-04:002010-09-03T16:49:04.961-04:00In the UK, OSRIC is far cheaper than 1e AD&D.
...In the UK, OSRIC is far cheaper than 1e AD&D.<br /><br />OSRIC in paperback costs around £10.50 + p&p from Lulu.<br /><br />I've been trying to get a 1e demon-idol PHB off PHB to replace my falling-apart Wizard-cover reprint. I'd have to bid over £15, + p&p. Add similar for MM + DMG. And OSRIC has a bunch of monsters from the later manuals, as well as the PC-class bit being much better written for reference in play.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25914627346692730902010-09-03T16:35:36.897-04:002010-09-03T16:35:36.897-04:00If WotC were to rerelease their D&D PDFs, I...If WotC were to rerelease their D&D PDFs, I'd buy them up like a shot. Seriously. However, I would still use them to support Labyrinth Lord (my current retro-clone of choice).Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14011319464542156037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29437581487010710932010-09-03T15:49:10.593-04:002010-09-03T15:49:10.593-04:00“So, just as a point of argument, let's say th...“<i>So, just as a point of argument, let's say that WotC were to make a PDF or some other electronic version of 1981 B/X available as a free or inexpensive download.</i>”<br /><br />Free? I might very well switch back. It could depend upon the quality of the PDF and the details of the licensing.<br /><br />Inexpensive? Maybe. Probably not.<br /><br />Now that LL is here, it has to “compete” against it. Plus, MF, OEC, and AEC give LL some features that B/X lacks. As much as anyone might say that LL was unnecessary, a situation was created in which Dan <i>felt</i> LL was needed enough that he took the time to create it. When that happened, B/X lost some value, if only just a tiny bit.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32723646333308360582010-09-03T15:39:08.294-04:002010-09-03T15:39:08.294-04:00Labyrinth Lord allows me to share a copy of the ru...<i>Labyrinth Lord</i> allows me to share a copy of the rules electronically with new players. LL means that I always know that for the rest of my life a new player to my group will be able to easily have a fully legal copy of the rules.<br /><br />LL allows me to print out as many copies or subsets as I like.<br /><br />LL allows me to have a PDF of the rules on my iPad. It allows me to have a copy on all of my computers. It allows me to search the rules!<br /><br />LL doesn’t have the “split into two volumes” issue that B/X does.<br /><br />I love B/X D&D. I honor the people who created and contributed to it. I treasure my copies.<br /><br />(Now I treasure my Lulu hardcopy of LL too!)<br /><br />B/X, however, is only an expression of a game, and LL is, for me, a more practical expression of the same game. (I’d say “near enough”, but the fuzziness of interpretation and house rules is wide enough that I don’t need to.)<br /><br />That is the role of retro-clones for me.<br /><br />I still reference my OOP library. I still use OOP supplements. So I wouldn’t call it only replacement, though. Call it both supplement and replacement.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66311807527817217822010-09-03T12:37:54.864-04:002010-09-03T12:37:54.864-04:00Retro-clones definitely served the purpose of help...Retro-clones definitely served the purpose of helping to keep out-of-print rulesets alive.<br /><br />That being said, I am looking forward to the sort of houseruling publishing (such as AEC, LotFP, etc) that allows these games to develop beyond artificial limitations of nostalgia or blind reverence. Many of the older systems have plenty of excellent ideas. They also have plenty of horrible ideas. Allowing the groups who like certain ideas to develop them in an organic fashion will add a lot of value to game tables around the world.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01591797343107526658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49917002079976976532010-09-03T12:36:07.271-04:002010-09-03T12:36:07.271-04:00So, just as a point of argument, let's say tha...So, just as a point of argument, let's say that WotC were to make a PDF or some other electronic version of 1981 B/X available as a free or inexpensive download. How many new people would that attract to OS gaming, and how many existing retro-gamers would switch to 'the real thing'?Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11677895164302972957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36538891832370698512010-09-03T11:37:30.258-04:002010-09-03T11:37:30.258-04:00Depends on the clone.
OSRIC is an AD&D supple...Depends on the clone.<br /><br />OSRIC is an AD&D supplement that allows me to play AD&D games.<br /><br />Spellcraft & Swordplay is a new game that allows me to play something like OD&D.<br /><br />Labyrinth Lord is a new game that lets me play something like how I actually played Basic D&D at the time.Timothy S. Brannanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02923526503305233715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19174237694080759152010-09-03T11:36:54.976-04:002010-09-03T11:36:54.976-04:00Just one story. I was in the local game store abou...Just one story. I was in the local game store about 2 mo. ago, and saw a group playing OSRIC. The group had a GM who was in his 30's ish. The party was 5 teen-agers who looked like they were having a BLAST! <br /><br />It gives the chance for the first time small publishers to get into the field. I dont know what the royalties to WoTC are for 3.0, 3.5 or 4.0, but i'm sure their hefty.Mark Morrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043010692931832448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49079103430345994772010-09-03T11:32:37.126-04:002010-09-03T11:32:37.126-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mark Morrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043010692931832448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64512052730259056182010-09-03T11:24:04.244-04:002010-09-03T11:24:04.244-04:00*cough* Original Edition Characters*cough* ;-)
h...*cough* Original Edition Characters*cough* ;-)<br /><br />http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=58558&filters=0_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=760Dan of Earthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04957424338566461756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2199874360270377752010-09-03T11:06:39.362-04:002010-09-03T11:06:39.362-04:00@Wayne Rossi
I agree with Wayne. I really wish th...@Wayne Rossi<br /><br />I agree with Wayne. I really wish there was a true OD&D clone available. There are just too many differences between OD&D and S&W WB that I would never refer to it as a OD&D White Box "clone."<br /><br />Most old-schoolers I know, including myself, play OD&D core with no supplements, because we prefer the rules as they were with room to house-rule as we saw fit. Unfortunately, S&W has many house-rules written into the game system which doesn't sit well with me. I would have preferred a "less is more" approach", with less house-rules and more room for players to house-rule themselves.<br /><br />I would love to see something as close to the original source material as possible without tweaks and/or house-rulings.<br /><br />Just my two cents!<br /><br />--Fandomaniac RobFandomaniachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15042665245815089202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54984325524776984752010-09-03T10:29:43.113-04:002010-09-03T10:29:43.113-04:00@Wayne Rossi:
In the past 33 years I've never...@Wayne Rossi:<br /><br />In the past 33 years I've never seen any two OD&D games run the same -- there is no definitive ruleset -- some hewed closer to "by the book" and others were way out in left field. In the end, they were all OD&D. This is the way the game has always been played. <br /><br />S&W is close enough to OD&D for most, so...if you crave a "pure" OD&D clone that badly, maybe you should step up and write it. You could just use S&W as a starting point and "change back" the few things that were altered or cut. ;)editor@sharkbytes.infohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15140114726027996380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65406978497502934902010-09-03T10:22:10.113-04:002010-09-03T10:22:10.113-04:00S&W WB has replaced OD&D, B/X D&D, and...S&W WB has replaced OD&D, B/X D&D, and AD&D as my game of choice. In fact, I recently sold all my pre-2nd Edition D&D stuff to a local collector (having bought the PDFs when they were legal) and bought a couple of new guitars and an amplifier with the proceeds.<br /><br />S&W has the basic framework and I have no problem adding to and tweaking it to suit my needs. I have no need of the older games -- the "clones" (which I view as separate games in their own right) are (IMHO) better written, better organized, and better for introducing newbies to the hobby....all this from someone who started in 1977 with OD&D. ;)editor@sharkbytes.infohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15140114726027996380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62450747689883134162010-09-03T10:05:07.460-04:002010-09-03T10:05:07.460-04:00Realistically? I don't think they really have...Realistically? I don't think they really have a purpose at this point. A lot of cool, creative material has come out without the stamp of one retro-clone or another on it, as much as has been released under the OSRIC, LL, BFRPG or S&W banners.<br /><br />There is objectively no need for Labyrinth Lord or OSRIC as games; B/X D&D and AD&D manuals are easy to find and wind up being cheaper than a hard copy of the clones. The only utility they have are as free legal PDFs, and I hate reading things in PDF. For me, the big problem is actually Swords & Wizardry; it poses as a clone of OD&D but is actually a game with significant differences. OD&D is the only edition with major rarity issues, and as such a genuine clone like OSRIC or LL would have been useful. S&W, while not a bad game in and of itself, fails completely at being this for OD&D. I couldn't substitute it for the 3 little books when running a game without changing a dozen fiddly things, which you cannot say about OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord.<br /><br />For me, the utility is in the "non-clones." That would mean LotFP, Spellcraft & Swordplay, Dragons at Dawn and so on. (Swords & Wizardry really should fall under this category, but because of its marketing it doesn't.) These I view as legitimate parallel games that ideas can be cribbed from, much like Tunnels & Trolls was seen in the very early days of D&D. I think people should come out with this kind of game.<br /><br />The only other thing I'd be interested to see is a clone of OD&D other than Swords & Wizardry. Unfortunately that game has created a meme that it "is" OD&D, and it doesn't seem likely that this will happen.Wayne Rossihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11347401495298367324noreply@blogger.com