tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1821458002852689729..comments2024-03-19T03:02:38.228-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: The Honest TruthJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24513058089615776742011-05-03T10:56:06.549-04:002011-05-03T10:56:06.549-04:00I can't tell you how many times my gaming grou...I can't tell you how many times my gaming group had these discussions in the 2E era. I never minded descending AC (and still don't), but they all despised it. I could care less either way. Whichever way it works in whichever system I am playing is fine by me, tables or no tables.HitAdjacentAllyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632582325567098655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90410458227227055492011-05-02T23:14:33.632-04:002011-05-02T23:14:33.632-04:00The amount of arithmetic involved with ascending o...The amount of arithmetic involved with ascending or descending AC depends on the exact method used to determine a hit. Some DMs tell the players the target AC some do not, some have a table lookup some do not.<br /><br />You said it involves subtraction, it does not; d20 + attack Bonus + AC + mods >=20 is a hit. No subtractions, unless some of the modifiers are negative (cover etc.), but that would be true with an ascending AC. No THAC0, No to hit tables. With this system it’s adding 3 numbers (plus mods if any) and comparing to 20. In the 3.x ascending system, you add 2 numbers (plus mods), about the same. In the 3.x system the totals are generally higher. When you routinely have to do “carries” in your head the arithmetic ceases to be simple for many people.<br /><br />You said someone must prefer a descending AC to think it’s as easy as ascending. I don’t prefer descending AC; I would use ascending AC if I was keeping the AC secret from the players, since I recently decided it was a waste of time (IMHO) I now find Descending easier.<br /><br />When I was keeping AC secret it really did not matter whether AC was ascending or descending. The players rolled the dice, modified them and gave me the total; I told them if it was a hit.<br /><br />In my 30+ years of gaming, I have never seen more confusion about AC going down as armor got better than a shrug of the shoulders.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11656554193044378009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91396994746978829732011-05-02T09:11:41.263-04:002011-05-02T09:11:41.263-04:00Ascending AC involves less arithmetic. The AC is t...Ascending AC involves less arithmetic. The AC is the number you need to roll to hit, plus or minus mods.<br /><br />Descending AC requires a table lookup or a THAC0 calculation to determine the number to hit, plus or minus mods. When you're dealing with negative ACs, the arithmetic ceases to be simple for many people.<br /><br />Once you're fluent with either system, it doesn't matter that much. One system happens to be easier for newcomers to master.<br /><br />Whether armor should reduce damage is an entirely different issue.Brian MacKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12752842049666489041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49530013606971933242011-05-02T00:56:58.900-04:002011-05-02T00:56:58.900-04:00Brian MacKenzie: I still disagree that ascending A...Brian MacKenzie: I still disagree that ascending AC is "objectively" less complex. It's all simple arithmetic. In any case, if one wants a system that makes intuitive sense (which may be more of what you are meaning, it occurs to me), then armor should reduce damage, as it does in many systems other than D&D. However, D&D's abstract and quick combat system doesn't work well with that concept.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56503656470811738382011-05-01T23:38:02.547-04:002011-05-01T23:38:02.547-04:00I don't find descending AC the least bit confu...I don't find descending AC the least bit confusing. If I were designing a game from scratch, I'd go with ascending AC. But my main group and I have been playing 1e AD&D for 30 years, and we still use descending AC.<br /><br />However, I've also taught the game to various people over the last 30 years, and I know that neophytes tend to struggle with descending AC. I have a little experience with 4e and have taught people that system, too, and I know that they grasp ascending AC quickly and easily.<br /><br />Yes, Michael, the "Skill + AC + Die roll + mod >= 20 is a hit" was the part that I knew would be confusing to someone new to the game.<br /><br />We don't really sell a game as fun when something as simple as determining the number you need to roll to hit something demands the solution of a math sentence that is an inequality involving as many as five terms.<br /><br />As a professional educator, I agree emphatically with faoladh regarding the pedagogical potential and utility of RPGs. That doesn't mean we should go out of our way to make the games unnecessarily complicated. <br /><br />Nor should our preference for descending AC lead us to deny the objective reality that ascending AC is clearly less complicated.Brian MacKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12752842049666489041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88841197492064018042011-05-01T12:41:32.268-04:002011-05-01T12:41:32.268-04:00“Each armor type has an associated armor class. “ ...“Each armor type has an associated armor class. “ I attempted to explain where AC comes from, is this the part you found unclear?<br />“Lower ACs are harder to hit. “, you said “Higher numbers are better”. Mine is close to your wording; the word Lower in place of Higher. I replaced “ACs” for “numbers” so it was clear what numbers we are talking about and “are harder to hit” for “are better” so it is clear for who it is better and how it is better. Is this part you found unclear?<br />“There are modifications to the die roll based on agility, magic, skill etc. Skill + AC + Die roll + mod >= 20 is a hit.” Is this the part you found unclear? There are other modifications to the die roll, you just add all the numbers together.<br />Let me ask you this, if the system was roll 2d6 and if it is less than or equal to the armor class, you hit. Would you still find descending armor classes more confusing? Is it the whole system or the descending armor class part?Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08864993221502918896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17909351487415053422011-05-01T04:53:52.664-04:002011-05-01T04:53:52.664-04:002e PHB, on THAC0: "Subtract the Armor Class o...2e PHB, on THAC0: "Subtract the Armor Class of the target from the attacker's THAC0. (...) The character has to roll the resulting number, or higher, on 1d20 to hit the target."<br /><br />It's a minor leap to tell a DM what AC you hit from that formula. For a child.<br /><br />If drink sozzled wharfies can calculate which double they need to end on in a game of 501 then what on Earth is the deal with book nerds getting tripped up on THAC0?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67875731674646793612011-05-01T03:39:16.740-04:002011-05-01T03:39:16.740-04:00Anyway, my point is simply (still) that there'...Anyway, my point is simply (still) that there's no way to objectively determine whether a particular number is better increasing or decreasing. It's all subjective preference. Now, there might be more people who prefer one direction than another, but that's a marketing decision, not an objective one.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82558279079749639322011-05-01T03:37:00.539-04:002011-05-01T03:37:00.539-04:00Brian MacKenzie: If someone can't subtract neg...Brian MacKenzie: If someone can't subtract negative numbers, then it might be a good idea for them to learn how, don't you think? One of the arguments we always used in favor of RPGs (back in the days when people were trying to claim that we were all some sort of caricature of "devil worshiper" that they learned from people who didn't play any RPGs) was that they were good at helping us to learn history, math, and other useful subjects.<br /><br />Michael's system is also very good, though I would formulate it as die roll plus target's AC (plus modifiers, if you want to get that complicated) to beat a target number determined by attacker's Skill.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36447462889774002992011-05-01T00:05:08.722-04:002011-05-01T00:05:08.722-04:00Clear as mud! Am I correct in assuming that you...Clear as mud! Am I correct in assuming that you're not a teacher, Michael?Brian MacKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12752842049666489041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25901063610370354492011-04-30T23:42:13.472-04:002011-04-30T23:42:13.472-04:00Each armor type has an associated armor class. Lo...Each armor type has an associated armor class. Lower ACs are harder to hit. There are modifications to the die roll based on agility, magic, skill etc. Skill + AC + Die roll + mod >= 20 is a hit.<br /><br />Not sure why that is so hard. I’m sure I could concoct an overly convoluted explanation of the ascending armor class system too.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11656554193044378009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82706621432874142442011-04-29T21:05:30.904-04:002011-04-29T21:05:30.904-04:00I like your ranks explanation, faoladh, though as ...I like your ranks explanation, faoladh, though as Whitehaven wrote, it does break down when you hit negative numbers (and zero, for that matter).<br /><br />Similarly, faoladh's mathematical explanation is better, except when you're dealing with negative AC. For most people, subtracting a negative numbers isn't any easier than adding an inverse.Brian MacKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12752842049666489041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70730990396042005452011-04-29T12:14:55.627-04:002011-04-29T12:14:55.627-04:00I always disliked many of the rule systems associa...I always disliked many of the rule systems associated with old D&D. Despite my distaste, I could make that system do whatever I wanted: The rules worked well to bring a fun, adventurous experience to my players. It was a bit frustrating at the time, like having an ugly, awkward toolbox that happened to hold just the tools needed to get a job done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23079091726434436452011-04-29T12:04:45.859-04:002011-04-29T12:04:45.859-04:00Okay, I grant that there might be additional crite...Okay, I grant that there might be additional criteria that could influence judgment as to whether descending or ascending is <i>objectively</i> better. I'm curious to hear what you think some of those other criteria might be.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13333781524640845035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51121404857628169482011-04-29T12:03:26.231-04:002011-04-29T12:03:26.231-04:00I think alot of those systems were adopted merely ...I think alot of those systems were adopted merely because of the huge amount of magazine articles in both Dragon and White Dwarf (back when they were good) explaining a particular person's dislike of them. For the most part, massive loopholes, strangeness that didn't map to a particular easy-to-use algorithm and "just for the sake of balance" items became unpopular with the gaming fans who ushered in the Silver Age.<br /><br />I find the less I have to rely on tables, and the less I have to rely on exceptions, the easier my game is. Which, of course, takes 3E right out of the running for me. <br /><br />But, like I always say, like you just posted above, YMMV.Eric R. Wirsinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632409261940844934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16023689253717080922011-04-29T11:50:04.709-04:002011-04-29T11:50:04.709-04:00it just stopped being newbie-friendly
Perhaps but ...<i>it just stopped being newbie-friendly</i><br /><br>Perhaps but "newbie-friendliness" is only one criterion by which to judge the utility of a game mechanic, so, while I might -- <i>might</i> -- concede that ascending AC is easier to explain to someone unfamiliar with <i>D&D</i>, I don't think that has any bearing on whether or not it's a "good" mechanic in any objective sense.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26818163677935206942011-04-29T11:46:59.541-04:002011-04-29T11:46:59.541-04:00What IS the obsession with OGL?
I include it becau...<i>What IS the obsession with OGL?</i><br /><br>I include it because every clone does, most especially <i>Labyrinth Lord</i>, which is the clone whose text I most often reference in my own writing. A lot of <i>D&D</i>'s terminology and mechanics <i>could</i> be referenced legally without the use of the OGL, but some could not -- most notably some iconic spells, monsters, and magic items -- so using the OGL is the price of admission to do so. I'm OK with that, as are all the old school publishers with which I have any familiarity. I'm pretty hard pressed to think of any who <i>don't</i> use the OGL.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66559957377030251102011-04-29T11:05:39.650-04:002011-04-29T11:05:39.650-04:00@faoladh,
I know how descending AC and THAC0 work...@faoladh,<br /><br />I <i>know</i> how descending AC and THAC0 work, and I found your explanation confusing. Once an explanation requires a chart lookup, it just stopped being newbie-friendly - <i>Earthdawn</i> pretty much sums up my own experience with that problem. "Ranks of effectiveness" makes sense, more or less, until we're talking about negative AC values, because I'm pretty sure no one has ever won negative-second place.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13333781524640845035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20337158966113932442011-04-29T05:40:47.900-04:002011-04-29T05:40:47.900-04:00What IS the obsession with OGL? What was/is the po...What IS the obsession with OGL? What was/is the point of declaring little snippets of stuff like this OGL? WotC have no claim at all over these bits of material you produce, so why do you insist on giving them some and, by extension, giving them control over any one else's material that uses the less jokey stuff you produce?<br /><br />Slapping "this is OGL" on your output means other people can not legally use it without granting special rights to WotC/Hasbro. Why would anyone <b>want</b> to do that? Just make it "public domain" or GPL or something.<br /><br />Arrrgh!Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34903241779097671282011-04-29T04:43:54.555-04:002011-04-29T04:43:54.555-04:00I can't help thinking that Psyche is a really ...I can't help thinking that Psyche is a really inappropriate descriptor for a weapon (apart, from possibly a set of bloody golden arrows). <i><grin></i><br /><br />[The perils of a classical education...]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62927264466872529892011-04-29T04:09:40.732-04:002011-04-29T04:09:40.732-04:00Brian MacKenzie: "AC ranks the effectiveness ...Brian MacKenzie: "AC ranks the effectiveness of your protection. Lower ranks are better (like 1st, 2nd, 3rd place and so on) and affect the ability of opponents to reduce your hit points. Either compare your level/HD to AC on a chart or subtract the target's AC from your target number for AC 0, both give the same result*."<br /><br />It is not objective to prefer one method over the other.<br /><br /><br />*depending on the specific game, of course.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61783252424601025322011-04-29T03:11:51.806-04:002011-04-29T03:11:51.806-04:00Speaking of Open Game Content... world's worst...Speaking of Open Game Content... world's worst acronym! If you don't know what I mean, tilt your head to the left, and what does OGC look like?<br /><br />Somewhat appropriate given the types of debate that this post is referring to :-) (Mass debate I suppose!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8497159481265237272011-04-29T01:59:25.042-04:002011-04-29T01:59:25.042-04:00I agree with the main point of the post. But ascen...I agree with the main point of the post. But ascending AC is objectively easier to grasp than descending AC.<br /><br />Imagine having to explain descending AC to a neophyte:<br /><br />"AC is a number that shows how hard it is to hit something. Lower numbers are good. The more armor, agility and magical protection you have, the lower your AC, and the harder it is to hit you. When you know your opponent's AC, you can cross-reference it with your level on the appropriate combat matrix for your class to figure out what you need to hit your opponent. Or, if you know your THAC0, you can always find what you need to hit by adding the inverse of the target's AC to your THAC0."<br /><br />If they don't know what an inverse is, the explanation would take even longer.<br /><br />By contrast, here's how you might explain ascending AC to a neophyte:<br /><br />"AC is the number you need to roll to hit something. Higher numbers are better. Armor, agility and magical protections will increase your AC and make you harder to hit."Brian MacKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12752842049666489041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83515230812406653952011-04-28T23:13:02.496-04:002011-04-28T23:13:02.496-04:00Interesting post as usual. Through ignorance of m...Interesting post as usual. Through ignorance of my own, I don't fully understand all your terminology, but I appreciate you trying to bring what appears to be a mediating attitude into what may be a largely "grognardian" pool of listeners. I also agree with Martin regarding the subjectivity of system attributes we love (e.g., ascending/descending AC).<br /><br />At first I thought formal logic might help. Later, I realized we're way too subjective in our preferences for a variety of reasons to agree on a common line of reasoning (though I kind of like what Zak S. did in laying out his rules for discussion in his recent online gender and sexuality "debate"). Maybe it couldn't be any other way and still be a "hobby". ???Digital Orchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00276516390269689741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31804625581552838862011-04-28T22:36:44.654-04:002011-04-28T22:36:44.654-04:00Mine boosted, by yours being busted! ;0)
PS : sor...Mine boosted, by yours being busted! ;0)<br /><br />PS : sorry about the repost ... over thunk it.O'Flux aka SteveEGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07505599780288759141noreply@blogger.com