tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1879325987245635907..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Kiddie D&DJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71279346151118151342012-09-26T16:51:32.025-04:002012-09-26T16:51:32.025-04:00" I think it was a mistake to try and sell Du..." I think it was a mistake to try and sell Dungeons & Dragons to kids by making it more "friendly" to younger players, "<br />While I think you are right about young people being drawn to material aimed at an older audience, that doesnt change the fact that the Mentzer Basic Set was one of TSR's all time best selling products... <br />Also it should be noted that the later boxed sets in the series had older age recommendations on them.Havardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11279847122404078492010-04-01T16:20:09.147-04:002010-04-01T16:20:09.147-04:00"Was AD&D targeted at a more older audien..."Was AD&D targeted at a more older audience in tone?"<br /><br />"Prior to the new covers in 1983, I don't recall any age information being given for AD&D, but someone can correct me on this score if I'm mistaken. To my friends and I, 1e definitely was the "older" game. Whether that's what TSR intended I can't say with certainty."<br /><br />Well, it was supposed to standardize rules and cover enough bases that strangers playing at tournaments would have a common ruleset and vocabulary. I guess to an extent that means aimed at older people with enough autonomy to get to conventions.<br /><br />Also, has anyone considered that as the 80s went on, for reasons that had little to do with gaming per se, teenagers and adults got less interested in gaming and more interested in other things? I mean, it *was* the 80s. There was coke and post-punk and New Wave and glam metal and Rocky IV and Reaganomics and capitalism and all sorts of distractions. Maybe D&D had to move kidward for survival. It might be harder for us to see that older people just weren't interested, since clearly we *are*, but it's possible.Michael (in NYC)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07812962280866467016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9680201726670545682010-03-20T03:56:46.648-04:002010-03-20T03:56:46.648-04:00I know as an 12 year old in 1985 I went straight f...I know as an 12 year old in 1985 I went straight from Fighting Fantasy to AD&D, and I think I did have a vague idea that Mentzer D&D was a kid's game, or at least less interesting.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58926256403168753222010-03-19T15:55:20.826-04:002010-03-19T15:55:20.826-04:00Nice summation of what we said in the previous pos...Nice summation of what we said in the previous post. I don't know - remember the 80s were a strange time. Suddenly the boomers were having children reaching their teen years yearning to discover all the bad things their parents - that being Sex, Drugs, Rock 'n Roll and D&D.<br /><br />So, yes, there was an older generation who could chaperone the younger group away from the lurid images and adult themes of D&D. It did not stop, kids from wanting to discover them on own terms.<br /><br />But, what is a game company that wants to expand do? Play it safe. So, they become more conservative (also in keeping with the times which remember the Christian Right ralled against RPGs - now they are making them). So again, James, think of the times in which the industry had to find a niche. No longer could there be experimentation by long haired freaks but standardization, corporatization and blandification. Sure, not all companies went down that route but experimentation only started up again later...why because a generation had passed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46230906067185249312010-03-18T22:05:36.479-04:002010-03-18T22:05:36.479-04:00Exhibit A, from the 1983 TSR catalog:
Friendly Wi...<i>Exhibit A, from the 1983 TSR catalog:<br /><br />Friendly Wizard, Come to Me</i><br /><br>That's ... horrifying. I don't believe I've ever seen that one before. I don't know whether to thank you or not, though.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68398495056954726152010-03-17T12:32:23.674-04:002010-03-17T12:32:23.674-04:00Hey James - no worries. I totally agree with you t...Hey James - no worries. I totally agree with you that it played a role. I think "maxed out" was the wrong turn of phrase for me to use, anyway. <br /><br />Also, I think that by the mid-1980's a lot of other RPG's had started to get some traction in the minds of gamers, and that gamer ADD was starting to rear its ugly head for many of us.<br /><br />:-)Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15257633015186395791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91872188503363068002010-03-17T10:07:41.291-04:002010-03-17T10:07:41.291-04:00@mksiebler: I'm not affiliated with that site,...@mksiebler: I'm not affiliated with that site, having only learned about it from a friend after I started my blog. The similarity in name is accidental and I've often considered renaming the blog because of it.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62720277331296306632010-03-17T06:41:13.746-04:002010-03-17T06:41:13.746-04:00I've noticed this as a dad: boys want to read ...I've noticed this as a dad: boys want to read about adults, but adults want to buy them books about boys.M Harold Pagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08949772130509527838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82809440827996331792010-03-17T04:27:34.728-04:002010-03-17T04:27:34.728-04:00Exhibit A, from the 1983 TSR catalog:
Friendly Wi...Exhibit A, from the 1983 TSR catalog:<br /><br /><a href="http://i10.tinypic.com/4dwwxvr.jpg" rel="nofollow">Friendly Wizard, Come to Me</a><br /><br />Sure and that'll calm parents down about their 8 year olds playing the satanic game.<br /><br />The rest of the <a href="http://www.acaeum.com/forum/about4298.html" rel="nofollow">thread</a> on the Acaeum forum is also pretty enlightening. As cringe-worthy as the ads from the kiddie era are, the earlier marketing to adults and teens is just as bad.Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17940305997770121672010-03-17T04:23:41.561-04:002010-03-17T04:23:41.561-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48239681475753822252010-03-17T00:23:36.188-04:002010-03-17T00:23:36.188-04:00I agree with James.
I started with Holmes and the...I agree with James.<br /><br />I started with Holmes and the AD&D Monster Manual in 1980 when I was 10 years old. I instantly gravitated towards the demons and devils. Now THAT was Advanced. A few months later I bought the brand-new AD&D Deities & Demigods, and the Cthulhu Mythos section soaked deep into my imagination (giving rise to CARCOSA 28 years later).<br /><br />Sometime in 1981 I saw the Moldvay/Cook B/X books, and I was turned-off. They seemed "kiddy" to me. I liked the difficult Gygaxian prose. I liked the demons, devils, and especially the Cthulhoid gods and monsters. I liked the D trilogy of modules. There was nothing in B/X that could compare.<br /><br />So I was a 10-11 year-old who definitely liked the adult aspect of AD&D, and disliked what I perceived as the kiddy aspect of B/X.<br /><br />Humorously enough, now that I'm an adult, I admire B/X more than I do AD&D. I think "kiddy" stuff tends to appeal more to adults than to children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42791008873696130522010-03-17T00:17:28.000-04:002010-03-17T00:17:28.000-04:00To my friends and I, 1e definitely was the "o...<i>To my friends and I, 1e definitely was the "older" game. Whether that's what TSR intended I can't say with certainty.</i><br /><br />In the Mentzer set, TSR definitely played up the fact that AD&D was "more complicated" than Basic, almost to the point of apparently pitching it as a wholly different game. Certainly made an impression on me.<br /><br />I just posted about the Moldvay-Mentzer divide, and for me personally I never felt an urge to move on beyond BECMI. I only made the eventual, reluctant switch because everyone else played AD&D and (thanks in part to the Mentzer set's language about AD&D), I felt that the systems were wholly separate and distinct. At the time, it felt like a "when in Rome" sort of decision.David Larkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04133630988557116729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62656081157152086902010-03-17T00:15:24.129-04:002010-03-17T00:15:24.129-04:00I definitely mean content. D&D can be a lot o...I definitely mean content. D&D can be a lot of fun when the players (even adults) have no awareness of the mechanics at all. But that's another issue.<br /><br />And sure "gross" (gore?) and "adult" (sex?) are obvious things to avoid, but there are other things-- maybe the biggest is just the violence that's central to the game. recently, we were playing a war game (Conquest of the Empire-- similar to Risk, but Romans and really pretty army markers) and he made the observation that "every game helps you learn something, this one is for helping you learn not to be scared so you can fight in a war."<br /><br />And this got me to thinking about what impressions I'm making and even what it is that I so much enjoy once my mother once referred to as "sitting around talking about killing people."Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-557283601077701132010-03-17T00:04:04.355-04:002010-03-17T00:04:04.355-04:00Was AD&D targeted at a more older audience in ...<i>Was AD&D targeted at a more older audience in tone?</i><br /><br>Prior to the new covers in 1983, I don't recall any age information being given for <i>AD&D</i>, but someone can correct me on this score if I'm mistaken. To my friends and I, 1e definitely was the "older" game. Whether that's what TSR intended I can't say with certainty.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69273390289360253402010-03-17T00:00:47.396-04:002010-03-17T00:00:47.396-04:00what "flavor" (by which I mean more than...<i>what "flavor" (by which I mean more than version) of D&D do you think is "good" for which ages of kids?</i><br /><br>Do you mean in terms of mechanical complexity or in terms of its content? In both cases, I think either Moldvay or (better yet) Mentzer would be good introductions to the game. That said, I think almost any TSR version of the game could be used profitably if the referee bears in mind his audience. In my Dwimmermount campaign, in which my 10 year-old daughter plays, for example, I don't dwell on anything too "gross" nor do I present any "adult" situations. However, I don't shy away from things that could be frightening or that could threaten her character (who's come close to death several times), because I don't want her to get the wrong impression about what the game is like. She's slowly adapting her expectations to my refereeing style and that's a good thing to my mind, even if there are often bumps along the way.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15860383593716988412010-03-16T23:58:07.298-04:002010-03-16T23:58:07.298-04:00I started with AD&D. I would not think the art...I started with AD&D. I would not think the art in those were kid friendly with the boobs and demons. Was AD&D targeted at a more older audience in tone?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16841934354409819708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45541952330339836442010-03-16T23:52:30.060-04:002010-03-16T23:52:30.060-04:00Question for James (or anyone else who is now a pa...Question for James (or anyone else who is now a parent)--<br /><br />what "flavor" (by which I mean more than version) of D&D do you think is "good" for which ages of kids? my almost 6-year-old is allowed to lie on the sofa in the next room with the lights off while we play and while he's awake we use a variety of abbreviations, euphemisms, and foreign words. (OOC = "out-of-commission" = dead; wakufa watembea = "walking dead in Swahili = any kind of undead).<br />Whenever I've made a compromise in response to his pleading, his experience has confirmed my caution; his imagination must be incredibly vivid. The close identification with one's character that makes RPGs so cool can also be kind of scary.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12586709645095247752010-03-16T22:17:04.011-04:002010-03-16T22:17:04.011-04:00Was the label actually just a marketing thing or a...<i>Was the label actually just a marketing thing or a substantive change to the rules to appeal to kids?</i><br /><br>I think, if you look at, for example, the artwork in Moldvay and Mentzer and compared it to the artwork in earlier editions, you'll see a clear shift toward stuff that was more "kid friendly" and based on different archetypes. I also recall the way that Mentzer downplayed the role of clerics as servants of gods. That was a change that served no purpose other than to meet head on claims that <i>D&D</i> promoted "paganism" and thus make the game more acceptable to Middle America. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10229732495307439072010-03-16T22:12:38.267-04:002010-03-16T22:12:38.267-04:00Eventually, like Anthony above, we maxed out on AD...<i>Eventually, like Anthony above, we maxed out on AD&D and its mechanics and moved on to other games like WFRP and Star Trek.</i><br /><br>Sure, I did too. I didn't mean to imply that the kiddification of <i>D&D</i> was the only or even the primary reason that a lot of teens and adults abandoned the game in the late 80s and into the 90s, but I do think it played a role.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59953331902027364052010-03-16T21:08:10.157-04:002010-03-16T21:08:10.157-04:00I see your point James, but is cleaning up the pre...I see your point James, but is cleaning up the presentation and clairifying the rules really making the game more "kid friendly" or just easier to teach and play? <br /><br />Was the label actually just a marketing thing or a substantive change to the rules to appeal to kids? They may have been trying to enlarge their audience, even though the rules were mostly written for older teens and up. Certainly 3e wasn't a kid's game. 4e, maybe.jdh417https://www.blogger.com/profile/14541882649762424101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53887301491854720392010-03-16T20:41:37.166-04:002010-03-16T20:41:37.166-04:00Yeah, I was surprised to see "Places To Go, P...Yeah, I was surprised to see "Places To Go, People To Be" also. I had it bookmarked a while ago, but thought it had faded away around 2008.<br /><br />Here is the site I am referring to:<br /><br />http://ptgptb.org/<br /><br />Weird. <br /><br />Anyway, me and my friends always considered ourselves to have "graduated" to AD&D sometime in the early 1980's, and passed up all the subsequent iterations of D&D like the BECMI sets.<br /><br />Eventually, like Anthony above, we maxed out on AD&D and its mechanics and moved on to other games like WFRP and Star Trek.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15257633015186395791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5304182615532714502010-03-16T20:33:16.802-04:002010-03-16T20:33:16.802-04:00I distinctly recall an 8 year-old me reading the l...I distinctly recall an 8 year-old me reading the label on the Moldvay box and wondering if there was a chance I might get in trouble for reading the books I was clearly too young for. Not that it stopped me, but I remember thinking those thoughts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43806023885982972412010-03-16T20:13:03.752-04:002010-03-16T20:13:03.752-04:00As I said in a previous discussion, D&D was in...As I said in a previous discussion, D&D was initially designed by adults and for adults. <br /><br />Of course, that didn't mean a thirteen years old boy could not play, but in order to do it, he had to make an effort. That was rewarding.<br /><br />D&D became later a more childish game, and we all can deplore it. Many hardcore players were attracted by more "mature" games, at the time, and I realize now that was the main reason.<br /><br />I think this perfectly matches the transition from the "Golden Age" to the "Silver Age" when:<br /><br />" is also the age where the Great Wyrm begins to eat its own tail, being influenced not just by epic fantasy generally but more specifically by second or third order epic fantasies that were themselves influenced by D&D".<br /><br />Abandoning references to Howard, Vance, Leiber or Moorcock for a smoother and harmless literature was a big mistake. In my opinion, of course.<br /><br />I guess they thought that's where the money was: teenagers and their parent's purses.<br /><br />Maybe they were right in a pure mercantile way, but this led D&D to a sad end.Le Baronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10243853568677750451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1735921334179426842010-03-16T20:10:11.932-04:002010-03-16T20:10:11.932-04:00The pejorative “kiddie” moniker often haunted the ...<i>The pejorative “kiddie” moniker often haunted the entire hobby</i><br /><br>Yes, absolutely. That's one of the reasons why I find the early days of the hobby most interesting. When the assumed audience was college-age kids and older, I don't think the game had quite the same stigma as it acquired later, in part because it was so much more obscure.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82372025106667095712010-03-16T20:08:18.444-04:002010-03-16T20:08:18.444-04:00Making it look more family friendly was important ...<i>Making it look more family friendly was important so that parents would let 10 year olds play it.</i><br /><br>Oh, no doubt, but there's a complex calculus going on here that has to balance the kid's desire for something "older" with parents' desire for "appropriate" entertainments. I personally think that Moldvay struck the balance better than did Mentzer, even though I prefer Holmes to both of them.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com