tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1988089399824240..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Some More Dwimmermount ArtJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10987690604648574552011-11-02T18:48:20.082-04:002011-11-02T18:48:20.082-04:00As to youth... well, I think there's a logical...As to youth... well, I think there's a logical basis for it. Adventuring is strenuous activity and above a certain age one's body may find it difficult to keep up. Same reason you don't see a lot of people in their 60s decide to start climbing rocks or spelunking or stuff.<br />The armor on the fighter I like more than I initially did, but I still feel it looks... plain. Wear and tear from being used, etchings on the greaves and gauntlets, a fantasy creature on the tabard instead of just a lion... something like that would help it, in my opinion, to stand out.<br /><br />Shit, I'd love to see a knight with a Displacer Beast on his heraldry, that screams flavor to me. Perhaps his ancestor was quite brilliant at dodging death blows.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68087064218617659952011-11-01T15:02:47.508-04:002011-11-01T15:02:47.508-04:00"it's OK to criticize ideas, it's def..."it's OK to criticize ideas, it's definitely not OK to criticize people. Disagree all you want amongst yourselves and/or with me"<br /><br />This really is a super attitude for a blog where rational discussion can be cultivated without cheap personal bias interfering. Thumbs uwinstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01569432385031116759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70496231081858460362011-11-01T10:34:55.546-04:002011-11-01T10:34:55.546-04:00I find it amazing that this one image, which is a ...I find it amazing that this one image, which is a single small piece out of many that'll be included in an upcoming Dwimmermount product, continues to generate such comment. The fact is that this illustration looks the way it does because I <i>asked</i> Mark to draw it this way. It's meant to be both a call-back to the art of the past <i>and</i> a subtle indictment to the art of the present, where all the women are young and beautiful and all the warriors wear spiky armor with lots of buckles and no helmets. <br /><br />Like or don't like, I don't care, but please don't criticize Mark either for his artistic ability or the lack of "drama" in the piece. He drew the illo the way I wanted it drawn, so any criticism of it should be directed at me, not him -- and you already know my feelings on the piece. <br /><br />Seriously, guys, this is <i>one</i> illustration where I decided to have some fun by playing with the past and poking fun at the present and everyone goes ballistic over it. The mind boggles.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81590780420141643412011-11-01T10:15:54.260-04:002011-11-01T10:15:54.260-04:00I like the style, like the (arguably) appropriate ...I like the style, like the (arguably) appropriate armour and gear, I just wish there was something else. Some drama, some suspense. <br /><br />Almost all the old pictures that ever stuck with me had something going on. The dwarves looking at the magic mouth in the old player's handbook is a perfect example of what I am talking about. They made me to wish I was playing in the campaign that I assumed (as a kid) inspired them. <br /><br />Even something peering around the tunnel behind them would help (and could still be added in). Anyway I like the artist, will definitely be supporting this product and buying it but that's my feedback even if you don't want it.bholmeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553614846487341510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25336368209417870312011-11-01T08:46:57.884-04:002011-11-01T08:46:57.884-04:00Hi James, Thanks for your reply. I looked at the a...Hi James, Thanks for your reply. I looked at the art again and realise it is actually very good independent of any critical perspective. Apologies for my earlier post.winstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01569432385031116759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49307490217124536082011-11-01T08:04:57.456-04:002011-11-01T08:04:57.456-04:00Here's my question, is the effusive praise mos...<i>Here's my question, is the effusive praise mostly on show here in appreciation of the inherent self-parody or is it for reals?</i><br /><br>"Inherent self-parody?" Are <i>you</i> "for reals?"James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16778559110625025802011-11-01T07:17:36.965-04:002011-11-01T07:17:36.965-04:00I like the piece as a tongue-in-cheek fond referen...I like the piece as a tongue-in-cheek fond reference to the dodgy fantasy artwork of long ago. As a serious piece of illustration the concept and execution is decent highschool. <br /><br />Here's my question, is the effusive praise mostly on show here in appreciation of the inherent self-parody or is it for reals?winstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01569432385031116759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10216003571609611592011-10-31T15:44:22.075-04:002011-10-31T15:44:22.075-04:00I get it James, and again I apologize for starting...I get it James, and again I apologize for starting any mess with how I went about expressing my opinion. I don't think my opinion matters that much in the grand or small scheme, but as a three-year reader of your blog, and having been originally inspired by it to put myself out there as a blogger. I maybe felt a little overly entitled/aggresive in putting my personal feeling out there. Sort of like picking on a best friend, something like that can get too comfortable. <br /><br />Again, I like the artist. And I understand and truly believe you are sharing your stuff just out of joy of sharing it. Your a writer, so a bit of payback for costs is understandable and makes sense. <br /><br />Like I said, I'll try to keep it to the positive (or at least leave out "frat boy" stuff as best I can) from here on in, and if I want to go ape-sh*t over something I'll do it at my little blog which doesn't get much attention anyway. <br /><br />Safe Halloween to you and your family. Enjoy that Drac flick and have Snickers-fueled dreams of classic horror! Peace.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7942534624788974292011-10-31T15:16:12.636-04:002011-10-31T15:16:12.636-04:00All,
While I understand that things can sometimes...All,<br /><br />While I understand that things can sometimes get a little heated in these conversations, I'm going to step in here and remind everyone that, while it's OK to criticize <i>ideas</i>, it's definitely not OK to criticize <i>people</i>. Disagree all you want amongst yourselves and/or with me, but doing so politely and without resorting to veiled or not-so veiled attacks on others is far more likely to get your point across.<br /><br />As for art, I'm too old to argue about it as if doing so could somehow change anyone's opinions about what they like. But I do know what I like and that's what I've commissioned and will continue to commission. If others like it, too, awesome. If they don't, <i>c'est la vie</i>. The great thing about old school gaming is that it's not about any single thing and, for every stodgy old stick in the mud like mean, there are plenty of others going out on a limb to do other things. If you're expecting neophilia or avant-gardism at a blog called Grognardia, you're going to be in for a disappointment.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88614164017032822392011-10-31T15:02:45.212-04:002011-10-31T15:02:45.212-04:00So: Dave, improve. You should improve; life is abo...So: Dave, improve. You should improve; life is about improvement<<<<br /><br />So is your comment to Dave to "improve" a "joke", or are you just that into being a pretentious, arrogant dick? <br /><br />I said I wanted to go ahead and try to leave the negative behind in James comments (not because of your meltdown, but out of respect to him) butyou know what dude? Despite how unsavory you find my words, Dave was not insulting to you, James, or anybody here. Insulting him over his fairly insightful and respectful comments just because he calls you on your overly dramatic bitching over all this shows you for what you really are. It takes away any of the meaning your ranting anger may have had. Jeez dude. Save your bile for me if I'm the one you're having a problem with.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9021551183253917772011-10-31T14:59:01.048-04:002011-10-31T14:59:01.048-04:00Then, hey, don't make frat boy jokes about you...Then, hey, don't make frat boy jokes about your favorite blogger and his readers because he goes into a little back-and-forth with you<br /><br />-and-<br /><br />don't make a personal attack on one of my best friends out of nowhere based on nothing more than "you heard her name and occupation"<br /><br />Because those things are what is going to make me notice that you are acting like a jerk on the internet.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34878144338157661792011-10-31T14:39:30.589-04:002011-10-31T14:39:30.589-04:00That's cool Zak, I have sort of hit my "r...That's cool Zak, I have sort of hit my "reading drama queen meltdowns" limit for the month.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3479179788900245892011-10-31T14:19:30.915-04:002011-10-31T14:19:30.915-04:00@bruno
"...while the trust fund non-LA..&quo...@bruno<br /><br />"...while the trust fund non-LA.."<br /><br />I suppose if I fact-check this you'll just say it was one of your famous "jokes".Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29296105865294485502011-10-31T14:11:27.236-04:002011-10-31T14:11:27.236-04:00@Dave Cesarano
You said:
"Trampier's ar...@Dave Cesarano<br /><br />You said:<br /><br />"Trampier's art is good but it isn't equal to Elmore either."<br /><br />As if it was a fact.<br /><br />Bruno said:<br /><br />"Like I said, many of JM's readers are pre-sold, so stick figures going down a dungeon would probably get a nice round of golf clapping going on here."<br /><br />(which was inexcusable--then admitted:)<br /><br />"If my humor mixed in fails, then it's on me."<br />________________<br /><br />Pretending everyone's complaining "Oh no criticism" is a strawman argument.<br /><br />The problem is there's a way to make your view known in a helpful way, and there's a way to make your view known<br /><br />as.<br />if,<br />it.<br />never.<br />occurred.<br />to.<br />you.<br />that.<br />other.<br />people.<br />aren't.<br />all.<br />like.<br />you.<br /><br />Which is what is happening here.<br /><br />And it's not helpful because instead of highlighting your ideas, it highlights you.<br /><br />So: Dave, improve. You should improve; life is about improvement.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43937243708810978782011-10-31T12:40:21.848-04:002011-10-31T12:40:21.848-04:00Look, I've never been a big OS fan. I've ...Look, I've never been a big OS fan. I've got a lot of respect for the OSR because I really believe, especially with the release of 4e (which I detest), that we need to go back and examine the origins of role-playing (particularly with D&D). I don't comment often, but I feel the need to throw my own two pennies into the mix.<br /><br />One of the biggest issues I have with the OSR, though, is the outright worship of all things OS. I'm sorry, although I enjoy a lot of the OS elements, I find the art generally uninspiring, especially when compared to the later 2E period. This picture that was posted isn't bad, but it is not equal to Elmore. Sorry, Trampier's art is good but it isn't equal to Elmore either. The angles, poses, and overall framing of most OS artwork is primitive, frankly. I'm not trying to say that Trampier or other OS artists suck--indeed, they're far more capable artists than I will ever be. However, I do not see the excessive virtues that many OS fans seem to attribute to it.<br /><br />I agree with Rach and Brunomac whole-heartedly. And I do believe that almost everybody on this comment thread is misunderstanding Brunomac's complaint (perhaps purposely). Brunomac is threatening something that has become a sort of sacred cow, especially here on Grognardia. And I believe that sacred cows SHOULD be threatened. Self-examination and self-criticism is a virtue. OS art has a strong nostalgia appeal, but if some people are growing tired of it and desiring different artwork and say as much, construing it as an ad hominem attack and responding in kind indicates that many OSR reformers are becoming ossified in their tastes and have a deeply vested interest in not having their bubbles burst. What Brunomac seems to be addressing (and the point that everyone seems to be missing because they're all too busy being offended) is that artistic tastes ARE becoming ossified and he's tired of it. By pointing out the flaws in the artwork, he's not criticizing the artist, but the art and indicating why he's tired of it.<br /><br />One of the first things I learned in college was that one cannot identify too closely with one's work because IT WILL BE CRITICIZED and if one's work doesn't get thoroughly assessed one's style and skill will never improve. Indeed, if one only is praised, even for mediocrity, then mediocrity is all they'll ever deliver.<br /><br />If you guys are all so immature as to take offense, I'm sorry but I thought we were all adults here. Let's please act like it and stop taking this stuff so personally.<br /><br />As for the criticisms regarding the female in the picture... please. I mean, frankly, the straw-man was absolutely PATHETIC. I'm surprised Brunomac actually confronted it. It's a non-point. You guys basically latched on to an aspect of his argument and purposely blew it up in order to make him appear to have said something he didn't and imply that he's sexist. Straw-man attacks and ad hominem sophistry don't make you right. They just make you bad at making a logical argument. We should be above this sort of thing. We are not enemies. At least, I'd like to think we aren't.<br /><br />Mark's picture isn't bad. It's good. I like it. It's actually superior to a lot of OS art I've seen in OS materials. It's well shaded and the artist really captures the three-dimensional depth of the passage leading up the stairs. I like that.<br /><br />However, it is indicative of a style that I find is getting beaten to death. The angle of the picture is perfectly flat and the positions of the characters look a bit stiff. The subject is excessively typical for the OS. I'd like to see something a bit more creative. Since Dwimmermount grew out of an attempt to run a sort of Platonic ideal of an OS game, that's not necessarily a weakness, admittedly. The problems with the art don't mean Mark did a shitty job. It means he can improve; he should improve; life is about improvement.Dave Cesaranohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01454928720043301400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65754787803548289292011-10-30T20:10:04.806-04:002011-10-30T20:10:04.806-04:00"I can for sure see how my timing was pretty ..."I can for sure see how my timing was pretty bad, and I should have tried to be more like Rach in my critism. "<br /><br />Great.<br /><br />Good.<br /><br />There you go.<br /><br />That's all you had to say.<br />___________<br />Advice:<br /><br />Stop trying to make jokes. Or work on them harder.<br /><br />Calling me an "angry girlfriend" and a "huckster" is just doing the same thing all over again.<br />_________<br /><br />As for two-faced:<br /><br />If you can't simultaneously make noise about something you care about<br /><br />-and-<br /><br />realize that noise moves product<br /><br />-and-<br /><br />make a joke about it.<br /><br />Then you are really not grasping the Southern California lifestyle.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-665952277175160982011-10-30T19:52:53.412-04:002011-10-30T19:52:53.412-04:00Zak, calm your nerd rage. I can't really answe...Zak, calm your nerd rage. I can't really answer you with a straight face, becuase while you rant about this subject here, over at LOTFP you're calling dissenting opinions gold and having a good time with it and suggests it moves product. Why not here? Because it doesn't match what you currently want to say and the point you are angrily trying to make. Helluva two-faced huckster, dude. Stop trying to be the angry girlfriend to the guys with blogs you like, getting in the face of a guy at the bar talking mess to your man. Offer James the respect of letting him have the rebuttal, rather than you're raging bitch-on.<br /><br />No, I don't do a Simon Cowell number on anyone, but I do know what I like and what I don't. I've praised plenty of things James posts over the years, and don't shit or piss on anything he does. I don't think knocking what I don't like about a particular piece of art is that shitty. That going so far is an attempt at bad humor is pissing on it, well, he made his point personally to me and quite well. Seeing as YDIS (which seems to have vanished, which I'd like to know more about) targeted James with an especially assholish post last week, I can for sure see how my timing was pretty bad, and I should have tried to be more like Rach in my critism. If my humor mixed in fails, then it's on me. For that James, I apologize.<br /><br /> <br /><br />On another subject, I would like to thank those of you who contacted me with congrats on the sweet Caddyshack reference. At least I got a couple laughs in the midst of my harshness. Happy Halloween all (even you Zak).Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20774680396443399432011-10-30T19:11:23.123-04:002011-10-30T19:11:23.123-04:00Like, do you see this as just a "dissenting o...Like, do you see this as just a "dissenting opinion"?:<br /><br />"Like I said, many of JM's readers are pre-sold, so stick figures going down a dungeon would probably get a nice round of golf clapping going on here."<br /><br />That's just pissing on people for liking something you don't.<br /><br />And James called you on it--and that's when it got nasty.<br /><br />And you'll go "Well, jeez can't you guys take a joke?"<br /><br />Really, of all the human beings on planet earth to direct your razor wit toward, why do you pick a dozen people who are fans of a goddamn person making a goddamn aid for a goddamn game hardly anyone anyone plays?<br /><br />Do you pull a Simon Cowell whenever you pass a music student playing a cello on the street for nickels?<br /><br />"Hey, you suck!"<br /><br />"Fuck off!"<br /><br />"This is America I have a right to a dissenting opinion you tyrant!"<br /><br />Yeah: you are totally allowed to have an opinion.<br /><br />And the rest of the world is totally allowed to ask you what the fuck your opinion has to do with anything important to them.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2441102876990323722011-10-30T18:50:10.641-04:002011-10-30T18:50:10.641-04:00@Bruno
Here's James:
"Hey guys, I'm...@Bruno<br /><br />Here's James:<br /><br />"Hey guys, I'm making some steak and eggs to eat. There's enough for everybody so if you want some you can have it."<br /><br />A handful of people:<br /><br />"Yay! Eggs!"<br /><br />You:<br /><br />"I don;t like eggs, I don't think some girls I know will like eggs, and, furthermore, all you people are a mob for saying you like them"<br /><br />"Ummm....we should care why? And we're a mob why?"<br /><br />"Whatever, man, you're stifling my dissenting opinion!"<br /><br />______________________<br /><br />Did you honestly, totally, completely, no shit, -entirely- miss the part of all the stuff posted before where the explicit criteria for making posting your "dissenting opinion" worthwhile is that you do it for a reason?<br /><br />Nothing in any of your posts includes a -reason- why JM should care about what you think. (Or why a handful of people who disagree with you and are trying to encourage an egg-making guy are a 'mob'.)<br /><br />Include one, then you've earned your right to have your "dissenting opinion" be worth typing out.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53475244643306249302011-10-30T17:46:07.949-04:002011-10-30T17:46:07.949-04:00I'd like to point out that I did not make an a...I'd like to point out that I did not make an attack on the artist, actually I like his style that I see on his website (there's what seems to me like actual art genius there in a sketch of London bobbies coming up on Jack the Ripper that I like a lot). I don't attack artists, but I do bitch sometimes on what they are given to work with. <br /><br />Although for some reason I find it weird almost to the point of disturbing when somebody would want no dissenting opinions on a blog about games, but if it's your house I guess you can shout out rules about it. But to say it has no meaning or doesn't add (especially the very weird defense of "he's just a guy in the basement printing out small runs on his own dime so leave-em alone!"), well, my chiming in got another couple of people to speak up with their alternative opiniions, and to me that is doing something worthwhile...people discussing something in a thread. "Wow - that's amazing!" is not great conversation to me. Guys like James R. at LOTFP seem to actually thrive on alternative, sometimes to the negative, views on his work. I'm getting more respect for people like that the more I see of it. <br /><br />But James, I will say this in all honesty, at least you don't delete out the negative comments which some others actually do.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21655494567900583452011-10-30T16:01:16.304-04:002011-10-30T16:01:16.304-04:00I also have a problem with the art, and it is the ...I also have a problem with the art, and it is the same problem I have with fantasy when it becomes generic: it is interchangeable and devoid of its own character.<br /><br />The man is a knight, the woman is a crone, the stair is a stair and the door is a door. All four are almost improbably generic representatives of an idea. <i>That door right there</i> is the <i>generic fantasiest</i> door one could draw, the kind you find in Ye Olde Englande-themed restaurants. Its "fantasy doorness" is unchallenging and obvious. As a piece of artwork, this one does not suggest, does not invoke, does not add, it only describes. It says, <i>"two adventurers, an armoured knight and an old crone, descend into a dungeon on a winding staircase, terminating in an old door"</i>. There is nothing more in it. As a result, the scene is technically proficient, but flat and easy to forget. There is no reason for it to exist other than break up text and consume white space.<br /><br />That does not mean I consistently want art with Otus-inspired weirdness (when <i>that</i> becomes a genre, it produces its own generica, some of it http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2010/02/furious-rant-in-pictures.html actually done by Erol when trying to imitate himself). Rather, I want art that goes beyond the repetition of general fantasy images. Even art depicting the vanillaest AD&D campaign can be good art: Trampier's graphics worked from the same pseudo-mediaeval imagery as this illustration, but he added a scruffy aesthetic to his characters. David Sutherland, another TSR alumnus, infused his work with a comic book-like dynamism and an amateur charm. Therefore, their artwork is memorable even when some of it was technically sub-par.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90141151108847143042011-10-30T13:47:03.011-04:002011-10-30T13:47:03.011-04:00"How's the Fighter going to get that door..."How's the Fighter going to get that door open, when his hands are full with sword & shield? >:)"<br /><br />It's simple: he's going to kick the door in.<br /><br />Nice art by the way, Mark Allen is my favourite in black & white.Tamás Illéshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11415717108941674663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38941540855366915202011-10-30T06:09:52.446-04:002011-10-30T06:09:52.446-04:00Like: if you're Random House: publish RE Howar...Like: if you're Random House: publish RE Howard. By all means. But publish Chester Himes too.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74281397458892092882011-10-30T06:07:39.077-04:002011-10-30T06:07:39.077-04:00@S'mon
You missed the point:
those guys were...@S'mon<br /><br />You missed the point:<br /><br />those guys weren't companies, they were artists.<br /><br />Besides: I didn't say the companies should listen, I just said that that it wasn't totally pointless to bitch at them and at least ask them to listen to you. They publish a variety for things, they may be able to make room for you by hiring ADDITIONAL artists and writers who are more up your alley.<br /><br />Unlike bitching at artists and writers, which is totally pointless. They gotta make what they make.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63723344710520192022011-10-30T03:32:49.741-04:002011-10-30T03:32:49.741-04:00How's the Fighter going to get that door open,...How's the Fighter going to get that door open, when his hands are full with sword & shield? >:)<br /><br />Zak S:<br />"Right:"Hey corporation with a market monopoly on a form of entertainment and therefore major cultural impact over decades of children, take all races genders colors and creeds into account when you make things!"<br /><br />I find that corporate attitude incredibly annoying, personally. If Tolkien had done that, LoTR would have sucked. If REH had done that, Conan's Hyborea would have sucked, etc.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.com