tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post1990347437883971120..comments2024-03-29T07:58:31.156-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: WonderingJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68634707152749512822012-07-11T13:25:58.984-04:002012-07-11T13:25:58.984-04:00People use to think that many books is a sign for ...People use to think that many books is a sign for very good sales, but is a bit more complicate. When you have a big potential buyers, you only need to launch a few books every year and you will win many dollars. But if you have a loyal but little community you need to launch more books every year to obtain the same beneficts.José Joaquín Rodríguez Morenohttp://www.facebook.com/josejoaquin.rodriguezmorenonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-351349084921291892012-04-28T13:34:35.554-04:002012-04-28T13:34:35.554-04:00I don't quite get that. 4e split the base near...I don't quite get that. 4e split the base nearly in half, it seems counter-intuitive that it would have outsold 3x. Derek Jude Tallmanhttp://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1100780481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9420556774316841072012-04-27T07:58:05.170-04:002012-04-27T07:58:05.170-04:00It should probably also be pointed out that pretty...It should probably also be pointed out that pretty much the entire commercial RPG industry kind of tanked by the end of the 90's, with most companies surviving by downsizing. TSR didn't, and as you mentioned, made a huge number of bad business decisions.<br /><br />2E didn't kill TSR, TSR killed TSR.Nick Clinitenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4722500352590518222012-04-26T23:03:42.424-04:002012-04-26T23:03:42.424-04:00 Interestingly the boxed D&D sets didn't m... Interestingly the boxed D&D sets didn't make as big a splash in Oz as the AD&D books did, probably because D&D never really caught on in the department and chain stores (you could find them there but people generally went to their FLGS instead). And "Advanced" was an exceedingly big draw-tag.<br /><br />In a similar vein I think 3E had larger retail market penetration over here than either 2E or 1E, but that was mainly because of game store owners trying to cash in on the resurrection. Most people were already quite happy with their 1E or 2E. Unfortunately the rapid introduction of 3.5 severely curtailed retail interest in the line ("Hey! I just bought the books and now they expect me to do it again") which carried on again into acquisition of 4E.Reverance Pavanenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86578331436686853712012-04-26T22:52:03.345-04:002012-04-26T22:52:03.345-04:00 Actually TSR's big problem was that their att... Actually TSR's big problem was that their attempt to get the games into bookstores as a <i>book</i> distributor. The problem was that the book industry has it's own customs, including the archaic idea of "returns" (so no sale is final until it is actually sold to the customer, and the books may be returned to the publisher - or destroyed - for full credit). And given the very tight margins a game company operates on, it was ill-prepared when it overextended itself in order to fill the large orders required by the book distributor <i>and</i> then suffered the huge bout of returns - in both fiction and games - (which admittedly was something that hadn't actually happened to it before). Couple this with the downturn through <i>game</i> distributors as a result of the card craze glut soaking up the retail stores reserves in inventory that was stuck on the shelf, and you have a situation where the doomsday clock was ticking as creditor bills (such as printers) came due. This precipitated the cash-flow crisis that crashed the company and forced the sale to WOTC (who had the spare cash thanks to those self-same card game sales).<br /><br />Given their behaviour with SPI just a couple of years before (which was also suffering a short-term cash flow crisis that was "alleviated" by a bad loan from TSR), I actually have very little sympathy for TSR and feel that they got what they deserved. Karma.Reverance Pavanenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90854248253060578022012-04-26T22:17:54.121-04:002012-04-26T22:17:54.121-04:00Yeah. And my first edition AD&D hardbacks were...Yeah. And my first edition AD&D hardbacks were bought at Walden Books and B. Dalton in the mall and Michaels (a big box craft store) and Toys R Us.Robertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87840078561488145912012-04-26T22:04:21.299-04:002012-04-26T22:04:21.299-04:00The first gold box game was out in 1988, 2E launch...The first gold box game was out in 1988, 2E launched a year later.L Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64222206245483919162012-04-26T18:10:49.182-04:002012-04-26T18:10:49.182-04:00Personally 2e was probably my favorite because it ...Personally 2e was probably my favorite because it was I played the most. There were flaws in it of course, but it was still really fun to play. Plus it had my all time favorite setting Al-Qadim. Matthew Kuncehttp://www.facebook.com/people/Matthew-Kunce/1074161194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41004680329246995712012-04-26T15:59:58.840-04:002012-04-26T15:59:58.840-04:00TSR's downfall had to do with Spellfire and so...TSR's downfall had to do with Spellfire and some bad business strategies which allowed for tanking card game sales to get returned for full refunds by vendors, among other bad decisions they made. The focus on 2E (which in this case I think you mean their consolidation of the D&D and AD&D brands under one roof) was probably not even a blip on the radar with regards to the much bigger issues they had.Nicholas Bergquistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79578311510236785172012-04-26T14:30:55.343-04:002012-04-26T14:30:55.343-04:00 Yes. Those novels and computer games are the main... Yes. Those novels and computer games are the main reason Hasbro even cares about D&D. They are valuable, the game itself, much less so.Simon Acertonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21639964252285613032012-04-26T14:16:29.410-04:002012-04-26T14:16:29.410-04:00There are any number of ways to judge the "su...There are any number of ways to judge the "success" of an edition, but the one I'd fall back on are sales of the baseline rulebook: PHBs or starter boxes. If you count 3 and 3.5 as the same edition, then the combined 3/3.5 PHB sales easily make it the top-selling hardcover.<br /><br />The product that people overlook in this discussion, however, is the 1991 "black box" edition of D&D Basic. That was one of, if not THE, biggest seller TSR ever produced, with more than a half-million units shipped worldwide. I have no idea how that compares to Frank's 1984 red box, but I know that everyone inside TSR was stunned by the sales of the black box. Steven Winternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79034491244281381312012-04-26T13:49:02.856-04:002012-04-26T13:49:02.856-04:00Don't forget, Downfall was also made into a mo...Don't forget, Downfall was also made into a movie!DrBarglehttp://drbargle.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75565169359105102662012-04-26T12:50:40.914-04:002012-04-26T12:50:40.914-04:00 2E spawned a number of incredibly popular novel s... 2E spawned a number of incredibly popular novel series and opened the flood gates for the SSI Gold Box computer games. I'd say 2E had the most broad media blitz and thus is likely to have touched, in some medium or another, more individuals than any other singular incarnation of the game.Brandon Walkernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13942127741490420082012-04-26T12:36:00.424-04:002012-04-26T12:36:00.424-04:00Fixed link? Print Run
2E hardcover, (wording is v...Fixed link? <a href="http://www.acaeum.com/library/printrun.html" rel="nofollow">Print Run</a><br /><br />2E hardcover, (wording is vague if this is actually hardcovers)<br />170,000 units for 1st year<br /><br />3E hardcover (pre 3.5), thinks they are selling<br />150,000 to 200,000 units per year<br /><br />1E DM Guide, first print run<br />40,000<br />second print run<br />40,000<br />third print run<br />40,000Random Wizardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66051614860556600172012-04-26T12:35:53.864-04:002012-04-26T12:35:53.864-04:00I've always been firmly in the camp that sees ...I've always been firmly in the camp that sees 2e in the 'red-headed stepchild' camp.<br />Then again, I could be biased as it's the only version of D&D I play and encourage others to play.<br /><br />If you look at the amount of fan service each edition gets online, I'd say that 3e is the clear winner, though, that might not correlate to sales.<br /><br />At any rate, in my neck of the woods, the only people who play 2e are the people I DM for. I came to the realization long ago that I will never again be a player in the game I love.joe whitenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46924959380028320702012-04-26T12:15:12.092-04:002012-04-26T12:15:12.092-04:00 Monopoly is in the works. Ridley Scott was attach... <i>Monopoly</i> is in the works. Ridley Scott was attached at one point, and given the success of <i>Battleship</i> I still wouldn't be surprised to see it.Kelvin Greenhttp://profiles.google.com/thekelvingreennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20862902201289557782012-04-26T12:12:05.364-04:002012-04-26T12:12:05.364-04:00This page at Acaeum (http://www.acaeum.com/library...This page at Acaeum (http://www.acaeum.com/library/printrun.html) has some figures for print runs. A WotC employee said that they were selling 150-200k PHB a year during 3E, which seems to ring true from other stuff I've read over the years.Jason Morganhttp://www.outsidethezone.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70749922811507765432012-04-26T12:03:01.227-04:002012-04-26T12:03:01.227-04:00 Ah, but when TSR started to depend on D&D 2e,... Ah, but when TSR started to depend on D&D 2e, it only destroyed itself. So by that measure, I highly doubt that 2e was the most successful edition.<br /><br />OD&D (the version of The Game with the lowest quality) was instrumental in building both the D&D franchise and the industry itself.<br /><br />D&D Basic (the "red box" version of the game) was responsible for spreading both D&D itself and roleplaying per se amongst the cultures of the world, making TSR an highly successful multi-million corporation. How many (non-computer/video) games do you know that actually are made into a movie, for crying aloud? Where's MONOPOLY: THE MOVIE, for instance?<br /><br />Whereas D&D 2e put out many books, campaign settings, source books and several computer games. But the moment TSR made it its main product (to the point of stealing the Mystara setting from D&D Basic), it basically build its own tomb.<br /><br />Not so "successful", was it?Andreas Kraußnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66579520159410815422012-04-26T11:51:01.125-04:002012-04-26T11:51:01.125-04:00Where can we get sales figures? I think that is w...Where can we get sales figures? I think that is what we need, along with population figures to create sales/person scores which we can then objectively compare. Isn't everything else speculation?Dylan Hartwellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23981924766849246562012-04-26T11:48:10.661-04:002012-04-26T11:48:10.661-04:00True. Because that's when D&D stopped bein...True. Because that's when D&D stopped being some esoteric insider game for "the initiated" and could instead be learned and played by everyone.Andreas Kraußnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39450923096187499902012-04-26T11:44:07.692-04:002012-04-26T11:44:07.692-04:00Yup, Morgan. That's just how I'd rank the ...Yup, Morgan. That's just how I'd rank the sales success of D&D too.Andreas Kraußnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75047444477447000652012-04-26T11:17:36.742-04:002012-04-26T11:17:36.742-04:00I definitely remember seeing more product availabl...I definitely remember seeing more product available for 2nd Edition. So, as several people have already said, it depends on if you are talking core rules or overall product lines.Tom Bolenbaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39605326606144960452012-04-26T10:55:02.054-04:002012-04-26T10:55:02.054-04:00Any surmising over the sales of any edition of D&a...Any surmising over the sales of any edition of D&D is nigh impossible to perform accurately.<br /><br />I am still confused as to what the exact public opinion of 2e really is. The most vocal people on the internet make it sound like 2e is the "red-headed stepchild" of D&D. But I know there are lots of people, myself included, who when they think of D&D they think of 2e AD&D. Hell, according to Mentzer Basic D&D was the best sold version of D&D, yet it was years before I even discovered Basic even existed. Before, I thought there was just 1st (in which I categorized Original, thinking 1e AD&D was just an expansion to that), 2nd, 3rd, and now 4th.Nick Clinitenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32039636727640589192012-04-26T10:48:09.967-04:002012-04-26T10:48:09.967-04:00 The most impactful would still be Mentzer's r... The most impactful would still be Mentzer's red box selling in toy shops... IMHORorschachhamsterhttp://rorschachhamster.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64384226277255842482012-04-26T10:44:30.890-04:002012-04-26T10:44:30.890-04:00i'd find it hard to believe, in UNITS, that an...i'd find it hard to believe, in UNITS, that any edition during the Home-Video-Game-Brain paradigm outsold the "D&D fad" era. 2E's launch still had some wiggle room to capture the remaining/residue of that previous era for sure. id assume the black covered books did way worse than the original 2E core books.<br /><br />at the end of the day it really doesnt matter. we all know this industry is a struggle and fringe market. you keep it alive out of love.Karlhttp://twitter.com/XnontheistXnoreply@blogger.com