tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post2057638590083880643..comments2024-03-28T18:47:26.087-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Open Friday: Megadungeon FormatsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50625893350739253992011-09-01T11:19:42.376-04:002011-09-01T11:19:42.376-04:00I know that I am a little late to the party and th...I know that I am a little late to the party and that I havent read through every comment but I will put in my (probably redundant) 2cp anyway.<br /><br />I would like to see a MD presented in 3 major parts:<br /><br />1) Maps - Detailed maps of the entire MD as well as the surface lands around it. These maps should detail pretty much only the unique and "fixed" physical aspects of the dungeon (ex. Moon Pool, Cleric Tree, Portal Room, etc.), perhaps, with some misc details that can be added to rooms or one line seeds for use in non-unique rooms in case the ref gets stuck (heck, it IS a big dungeon with lots and lots of rooms!). Also, I think that having some details on physical elements (I am thinking traps) that can be placed as needed would be useful here.<br /><br />2) NPC & Monster Manual - This should be an encyclopedic treatment of all of the NPC that exist inside and surrounding the MD as well as all of the potential monsters that exist within your world (i.e. your ecosystem - at least, in how it varies from the typical Old School ecosystem). I would also include stocking/encounter tables here too. Seeing the number of comments in this post that indicate people want their monsters keyed to levels, perhaps a small, separate appendix/supplement that details the potential MD inhabitant ecosystems per level.<br /><br />3) Background - This should be all of the material that, when combined with 1 & 2 above, make the campaign setting into a unique world. Deities, races, factions, back story of the world and its peoples, etc. Additionally, this piece should have a summary of the dungeon and its "secret" (if any), details about how the levels fit together within the story material, as well as the "evolution" of events within the world assuming there were no PCs involved (if this actually fits with the materials you have developed).<br /><br />By splitting the MD up into these three major parts I feel as though you cater to more audiences. For those who want to add a MD to their existing or already detailed world they can simply buy part 1. For those what want to start a MD campaign in a unique setting, they can buy parts 1 & 2. For those what want to actually run the Dwimmermount campaign itself...they buy all three parts.<br /><br />I think this is the most reasonable way to present the material since it is the closest approximation of how the material was created to begin with; you created some maps, you created some NPCs, you created some basic ideas about the settings story. Then through play all of these things got put together and fleshed out. Having these three elements separated out will allow refs to put the pieces together how they see fit, or if they prefer to use Part 3, how YOU saw fit.<br /><br />I look forward to seeing your thoughts on the matter!Jing Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07400020579611846437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42375913265516992842011-08-29T15:39:29.471-04:002011-08-29T15:39:29.471-04:00"A megadungeon box set box could include the ...<b><i>"A megadungeon box set box could include the general books such as setting assumptions, global maps and the like as well as the first set or so of modular components. Each additional modular component (32 page pop-up or fold out map cover, etc.) could be made to fit within the box or used on its own."</i>--Red</b><br /><br /><i>That</i> could be <i>really</i> cool!https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26085565223801491412011-08-29T14:04:42.450-04:002011-08-29T14:04:42.450-04:00Not to belabor the point counting how many angels ...Not to belabor the point counting how many angels are on this pin, but...<br /><br />A megadungeon box set box could include the general books such as setting assumptions, global maps and the like as well as the first set or so of modular components. Each additional modular component (32 page pop-up or fold out map cover, etc.) could be made to fit within the box or used on its own.redbeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04600098550347299095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19807785447754067572011-08-29T11:40:55.586-04:002011-08-29T11:40:55.586-04:00I forgot to mention that, despite all I've wri...I forgot to mention that, despite all I've written advocating & explaining modular design, I think the <i>best</i> idea presented here so far has been:<br /><br /><b><i>"...not so much a 'finished' megadungeon (is there such a thing?) but a toolkit (a la Zak's Vornheim) for continuously generating and improvising the megadungeon."</i>--Matthew Miller</b><br /><br />Though I also think that...<br /><br /><i>"A series of 32 page pop-up books."</i><br /><br />...could be pretty cool too. ;o)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24193381446285908372011-08-28T23:08:25.841-04:002011-08-28T23:08:25.841-04:00"I doubt the audience of this blog or the OSR...<b><i>"I doubt the audience of this blog or the OSR in general has money making as their first prerogative. They try to cover costs, and some are trying to make a go of it as a source of income."</i></b><br /><br />I'm sure you're right. But even just the desire to merely cover their costs will lead people to produce books instead of other formats if they think they'll be more likely to cover their costs by selling books. And, in cases where other formats would be more useful than books, that's unfortunate for those of us who want to use these things, not just read them.<br /><br /><br /><b><i>"But even those that do see producing these works as income are (if they are realistic and have some sanity about them) doing it for the process and the end result, not the money."</i></b><br /><br />I know. That's exactly what I meant when I speculated that they might <i>"find the challenge of designing such things fun".</i><br /><br /><br /><b><i>"There's a different format between individual booklets and the hardback: the box set."</i></b><br /><br />Yes. And boxed sets are an ideal format for <i>complete</i> megadungeons (and cities, and campaign settings, and supermodules). But they still require completing the whole project before producing anything though. And they also require buying the whole project instead of just parts of it too.<br /><br /><br /><b><i>"Sounds like your beef is more with the physical format of books, rather than the conceptual design of megadungeons per se."</i></b><br /><br />Not exactly.<br /><br />While I do think that megadungeon (and city, and campaign setting, and supermodule) products would be much easier to use (and also to produce) if they were produced in modular formats, I also think the reason <i>why</i> they're <i>not</i> produced in modular formats is because the predominant assumptions about the proper conceptual design of megadungeons don't allow for that.<br /><br />So you're right that I don't have a beef with <i>"the conceptual design of megadungeons per se"</i>. What I have a beef with is the assumption that megadungeons should have any conceptual design at all.<br /><br />That's why I advocate ditching that assumption.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12577917361676859322011-08-28T22:06:51.830-04:002011-08-28T22:06:51.830-04:00@Ed: Sounds like your beef is more with the physic...@Ed: Sounds like your beef is more with the physical format of books, rather than the conceptual design of megadungeons per se.Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22753793160567670452011-08-28T21:39:03.052-04:002011-08-28T21:39:03.052-04:00Dove: I doubt the audience of this blog or the OS...Dove: I doubt the audience of this blog or the OSR in general has money making as their first prerogative. They try to cover costs, and some are trying to make a go of it as a source of income. But even those that do see producing these works as income are (if they are realistic and have some sanity about them) doing it for the process and the end result, not the money.<br /><br />There's a different format between individual booklets and the hardback: the box set.redbeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04600098550347299095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60142171800931887402011-08-28T19:19:29.402-04:002011-08-28T19:19:29.402-04:00@Joseph:
What you suggest sounds right in theory,...<b>@Joseph:</b><br /><br />What you suggest sounds right in theory, but -- in my experience with things like megadungeons, city books (ones like CSIO & Ptolus, <b><i>not</i></b> Vornheim), campaign settings & supermodules -- doesn't actually work well in practice.<br /><br />The impediment is the physical format -- a book -- that's harder to use sections of than if those sections were completely separate modules with cover folders with maps on them that are bigger and easier to use than maps in books are, and booklets that are easier to navigate than books are -- and that lay flat & stay open more readily than books do too.<br /><br />So the only reason I've been able to think of why anybody would rationally <i>prefer</i> things like megadungeons, cities, campaign settings & supermodules in book format is because they mostly just want to read them, not actually use them.<br /><br />And, of course, anybody who's gone to all the effort of creating a whole megadungeon, city, campaign setting or supermodule probably will prefer to sell the whole thing all at once in book form for a high price rather than sell it in more useful pieces and hope people keep buying the pieces (even if they could <i>possibly</i> make more money from selling it in pieces <i>if</i> people bought <i>all</i> the pieces).https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26311220260177922472011-08-28T18:24:02.106-04:002011-08-28T18:24:02.106-04:00@Ed Dove: I don't think that simply because a ...@Ed Dove: I don't think that simply because a published megadungeon is large it necessarily needs to be either non-modular or difficult to digest and use. <br /><br />If something were presented in a series of a dozen small modules, rather than a single large one that contained exactly the same information, would that somehow be better? <br /><br />To take my own as an example, if you just read through the first level of Castle of the Mad Archmage, you could do so easily and run the level with little difficulty (the comments of folks like Joe the Lawyer notwithstanding). Once the party found a staircase to level 2, you could then read the chapter on level 2, and so forth.<br /><br />That's not to say, of course, that there aren't any connections between them. There are, and the relevant information is contained within. There are also, of course, sections that interact with one another more vertically than horizontally (intentionally so, to go against some of the "each level is an isolated unit from the rest" mentality that such levels can sometimes, unconsciously, foster).<br /><br />But if I'm reading you correctly (and I certainly admit I might be misunderstanding your point), it seems like there would be little difference in just acting like a large published megadungeon was, in fact, published in smaller chunks, than how it could be approached if it actually consisted of dozens of smaller modules. Am I missing something?Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81472755778210804622011-08-28T16:56:48.824-04:002011-08-28T16:56:48.824-04:00I thought of another question about why apparently...I thought of another question about why apparently almost everybody interested in megadungeons wants them to have things like at least very extensive (if not complete) maps, <i>”a précis of the entire dungeon, including revealing any secret or ultimate goal of the dungeon, as well as general design philosophy”</i>, and a <i>”backstory and summary of the megadungeon...summary of each level and an explanation of how the various levels fit together...level by level descriptions of the major denizens, landmarks, and special features of each level”</i> right from the start...<br /><br />Are people who want those sorts of things mostly interested in <i>designing</i> or <i>reading about</i> megadungeons -- not actually <i>running</i> them?<br /><br />I wonder because it's so much easier to run a megadungeon that's presented in manageable chunks rather than as a massive thing that's difficult to digest & use.<br /><br />So why does apparently almost everybody interested in megadungeons want them presented as massive -- difficult to digest & use -- things?<br /><br />The only rational possible reasons I've been able to think of are that they either find the challenge of designing such things fun or want comprehensive megadungeon tomes to read but not actually use.<br /><br />Are there any other reasons why people who want such things want them?https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13387638237791731872011-08-28T09:10:30.487-04:002011-08-28T09:10:30.487-04:00Personally, I think megadungeons are fundamentally...Personally, I think megadungeons are fundamentally non-sensical - and I don't mean that in any negative way. I just think that much of any effort spent trying to justify and rationalize the "hows and whys" of them is wasted. To me they are basically vortices of chaos and the rules of the normal world don't apply within their dark corridors. I think they work best if you just embrace the gonzo ftmp and don't worry too much about what keeps it all going.Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00323022731513484213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14170094595379083272011-08-28T09:00:06.215-04:002011-08-28T09:00:06.215-04:00I got to the paragraph in joethelawyers post that ...I got to the paragraph in joethelawyers post that began with "All that being said, I don't like megadungeons" and I was all "erm, well great...wtf? Why did I just read the previous five paragraphs??"<br /><br />You coulda told me at the outset at least... :)Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00323022731513484213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3016539522970495122011-08-28T00:07:38.172-04:002011-08-28T00:07:38.172-04:00It’s unfortunate that, apparently, almost nobody i...It’s unfortunate that, apparently, almost nobody is interested in any megadungeons that don’t have at least very extensive (if not complete) maps right from the start because that’s likely one of the main reasons why so few megadungeons get published. If enough people would just accept the idea of building megadungeons manageable-piece-by-manageable-piece, then there could be lots more of them to choose from. And we wouldn’t even have to choose from <i>whole</i> megadungeons either. We could choose only the pieces we like best and use them to build <i>our own</i> megadungeons. And chances are that some people would even post <i>free</i> megadungeon pieces online too. But, because, apparently, almost nobody is interested in any of that, it probably won’t happen. And that’s a shame.<br /><br />I wonder if the assumption that megadungeon projects should have at least very extensive (if not complete) maps right from the start is based on the assumption that they should have <i>”a précis of the entire dungeon, including revealing any secret or ultimate goal of the dungeon, as well as general design philosophy”</i> right from the start too? After all, if you don’t assume that there should be <i>”a précis of the entire dungeon”</i> or <i>”any secret or ultimate goal of the dungeon”</i> or a <i>”general design philosophy”</i> right from the start, then there’s not much basis for assuming that there should be at least very extensive (if not complete) maps right from the start either. Right?<br /><br />And, if you don’t assume that there should be any of <i>those</i> things right from the start, then there’s no reason to assume that there should be things like a <i>”backstory and summary of the megadungeon...summary of each level and an explanation of how the various levels fit together...level by level descriptions of the major denizens, landmarks, and special features of each level”</i> either.<br /><br />And, once free of all those assumptions, it’s possible to build and run megadungeons much more quickly, not just think about them endlessly.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4544932725798184512011-08-28T00:04:54.344-04:002011-08-28T00:04:54.344-04:00"Disinterest is different than dislike."...<b><i>"Disinterest is different than dislike."</i>--JoetheLawyer</b><br /><br />So you think that, when Mr. Maliszewski said <i>"please don't use the comments section to express your disinterest"</i>, he meant to allow for people to express their <i>"dislike"</i> of megadungeons?<br /><br />Stop acting like a lawyer for a moment and just admit that you did something wrong.<br /><br />Now, back to the actual topic...https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35021319887833924162011-08-27T23:26:35.694-04:002011-08-27T23:26:35.694-04:00Disinterest is different than dislike.
Someone w...Disinterest is different than dislike. <br />Someone who is disinterested doesn't take the time in the middle of a fuckin' hurricane to post 7000 words on it. Mr. Maliszewski is free to delete my shit if he doesn't like it. It's his blog.Joethelawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380090049725742287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75822877233879776252011-08-27T23:21:24.724-04:002011-08-27T23:21:24.724-04:00"I don't like megadungeons..."--Joet...<b><i>"I don't like megadungeons..."</i>--JoetheLawyer</b><br /><br />Did you not read the part of the original blog post where Mr. Maliszewski said <i>"please don't use the comments section to express your disinterest"</i>?https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12110129547934699122011-08-27T23:21:21.639-04:002011-08-27T23:21:21.639-04:00Just to clarify, I don't mean to portray Joe&#...Just to clarify, I don't mean to portray Joe's Castle of the Mad Archmage as a compilation of random encounters. It's definitely not that. I like it. I ran it at a con last year in conjunction with Castle Zagyg. That's where the stark contrast really hit me. There are a lot of good parts to it that do hang together and tell the mini-story, but there are some that don't. Some of the stuff in Archmage is damn brilliant and I steal it for my own stuff. But I like it all to hang together, but not as much as Zagyg in terms of the details. If you could throw Mad Archmage and Zagyg together in a soup pot and see what comes out, it would be the perfect megadungeon for me. <br /><br />It's all about personal taste.Joethelawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380090049725742287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38662187967579454242011-08-27T22:44:00.494-04:002011-08-27T22:44:00.494-04:00part 2
On the maps, give me enough info by way o...part 2<br /> <br />On the maps, give me enough info by way of syumbols that I don't have to refer to the text of the module to read the contents of each room. Have the map make sense in layout, as to its original creation purpose. Show me a real live place that someone lived in, let me imagine what it was, in a way that makes sense. In other words, put the latrine near the barracks, rather than next to the king's quarters or the alchemist's lab. No latrine? Fail. Everyone shits man.<br /><br />All that being said, I don't like megadungeons because you never get to see the world around you and never get to conquer it. You go into a hole in thye ground, and some months later you come out a badass, with occasional trips to town to resupply and sell. That's just boring as shit to me. My brother ran a group of friends and I through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and I tried to sabotage the fuckin' thing every chance I could get just to get out of the goddamned hole in the ground, so I could enjoy some of the most fun levels in a character's career above ground in the world.Joethelawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380090049725742287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22509860288678651572011-08-27T22:43:30.982-04:002011-08-27T22:43:30.982-04:00I have to say Joe, I go the other way. My prefere...I have to say Joe, I go the other way. My preference is somewhere between your CotMA and Castle Zagyg: Upper Works. <br /><br />I like my dungeons to make sense in some way. Logically hang together as to what is where and why, and how all those elements and creatures form a little ecosystem. I look at it as part of the puzzle or story for the pc's to solve. On some level it has to make sense why the room of bugbears is across the hall from the room with the roper in it, and how they are able to actually live together, as well as survive individually. <br /><br />As a player I like to try to figure out the dungeon's internal logic, or story, in order to gain some advantage over it. As a DM I can't just design random shit that makes no sense to me. Someone designed the thing for a reason. That reason may have been lost in time and different denizens are there now, but both the original intent and the current sentup should be inteligible to the players and DM. Even the maps have to make sense as to why they are laid out in such a way. <br /><br />Your dungeon falls short in that regard, for me, as for what I look for. <br /><br />On the other hand, Castle Zagyg give it to me in spades. Too many damn spades. The descriptions and backgrounds and interconnections are too intricate, there is too much written about it all in a lot of places. I don't want a travelog, just a module.<br /><br />The whole reason to play the module in the first place is because I have no time to make something up, or I want to give the players a chance to jump into someone else's creation, and experience something created by another person. I don't want to "make it my own." I just want to play in their sandbox for a while. <br /><br />Here's what I want: a dm description box to read to the players, no more than one or two sentences. I like these for a couple of reasons. First, they give a quick glance at the room, give the players something to chew on while I as DM quickly scan the dm info section. Second, they set the tone or flavor in a way that the author's voice is expressed. If I buy a module by Rob Kuntz, for example, I want the ability to run the module for my players as if their DM was Rob. The only way for Rob's voice to be there is thru the captions. <br /><br />Next, I would like the next section under the caption to be a short paragraph giving the dm all he needs to know to run the room if the players quicjkly decide to do something. Also, it gives me a way to quickly refamiliarize myself with the area, as in "Oh, this is the medusa room with the swan." As DM's we can prep for a game, but no amount of prep will let me memorize a megadungeon.<br /><br />After that, give very brief details of various objects/monsters in the room that are of note.<br /><br />At the start of each distinct section of the dungeon complex, give me a paragraph which summarizes what it was when created, what it is now, and how its denizens interact with the areas around it and how they are able to live and breed and survive. Basically, give me its mini-atory. <br /><br />Random encounters must make sense. On a level dominated by demi-humans, why would there be zombies if there wasn't a necromancer's lab or graveyard nearby? Or a random poisonous spider encounter when every room is fully developed and there are no spider lairs anywhere? I don't want to make up a BS reason, as I think you lose credibility with your players that way.Joethelawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00380090049725742287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22499245130029455842011-08-27T19:58:41.394-04:002011-08-27T19:58:41.394-04:00And I should add that some of the best explanation...And I should add that some of the best explanations for such things come from the players themselves. While they engage in agonized speculation about what those berserkers are doing down there, don't be afraid to take a good idea they float and run with it. Or turn it on its head. You're not cheating. You're improvising.Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12641084996674466672011-08-27T19:56:25.211-04:002011-08-27T19:56:25.211-04:00@ Rach's reflections: If I may, I think you...@ Rach's reflections: If I may, I think you're missing the entire point of something like Castle of the Mad Archmage. You ask "what are these human berserkers doing in a previously sealed complex, full of hostiles, a great many stories underground?"<br /><br />Well, at the risk of sounding trite, that's up to you, as game master, to decide. Maybe they were sent to that room in CotMA by Odin when there wasn't enough room on the mead benches in Valhalla. Maybe they're cursed, not realizing just how much time has passed. Maybe they know exactly what they're doing, and are gearing up for an all-out assault on the level that never quite materializes. Maybe they're Zagyg's personal guard, kept entertained here until they're needed elsewhere.<br /><br />As far as the other hostiles on the level go, maybe they know just how tough it would be to take out 50 berserkers, and give them a wide berth. Maybe they've struck a bargain with them. Maybe they don't even know the berserkers are there. If so, why? Figure it out.<br /><br />The whole point of a mega-dungeon module like Castle of the Mad Archmage is that it is replete with gray areas like that. If I had put in every motivation for every NPC, and a justification for every trap, treasure, monster, etc. the whole thing would collapse under its own weight. It would literally be impossible for any single GM-- myself included-- to internalize enough of that information without having to endlessly consult the written page. By providing just enough information, and placing a plethora of tantalizing "hooks" like the Mead Hall in there, I allow you to breathe life into the dungeon and turn it into a very very different place than it is when I run it.<br /><br />And that's what I want to happen. Make it your own! Don't see an explanation? That's on purpose! It's room for you to explore and expand off the cuff if you want, or with a little planning and forethought it you work better that way. Castle of the Mad Archmage is the framework only. You need to fill in the details, by design.Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56616606859523856882011-08-27T10:54:26.789-04:002011-08-27T10:54:26.789-04:00I'm sorry, but I get very confused on this: wh...<i>I'm sorry, but I get very confused on this: why isn't a 'really big dungeon' a 'megadungeon'?</i><br /><br>A megadungeon (or "campaign dungeon") is a dungeon complex that is both the focus of a campaign -- a "tent pole," as explained in the post to which I linked above -- and too large to ever be "cleared" by even several parties of adventurers. Megadungeons are designed to be an ongoing and permanent feature of a campaign, not used and discarded like most dungeons published in the past.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87022574820325551802011-08-27T10:52:58.851-04:002011-08-27T10:52:58.851-04:00A series of 32 page pop-up books.A series of 32 page pop-up books.Conrad Kinchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15683395740934527502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84010514153892176212011-08-27T08:35:35.299-04:002011-08-27T08:35:35.299-04:00@Pat: All my megadungeons (starting on my third no...@Pat: All my megadungeons (starting on my third now) have had multiple parties (or individuals) adventure in them. It's definitely a lot more fun. [It's also my preferred way of running continuing campaigns, but it gets harder to do as people become less available due to other time commitments, whereas people can usually make time for an occasional dungeon delve, especially since you don't have to go with the same party each time.]<br /><br />@Nick: I'm presuming here, but the focus of a campaign with a megadungeon is the dungeon itself, and the surrounding world generally exists only as an adjunct and in support to it. When the outer world becomes just as, or more, important, you simply have a very large dungeon.<br /><br />They can even exist simultaneously in the same world. The archetypical example of this is Castle Greyhawk and the World of Greyhawk campaign. In the first the focus is on the castle itself (with side adventuress involved in getting back to it if you got to the very bottom), and so it is a megadungeon. In the second the focus is the events that are happening in the world around it, and so CG becomes simply a very large dungeon in the campaign world (possibly a source of side-adventures), and not the focus of the game.<br /><br />The <i>Ruins of Undermountain</i> on the other hand is simply a very large dungeon located in the Forgotten Realms campaign.<br /><br />In my first megadungeon almost everything outside the entrance was relatively undefined (and the entrance was only reasonably defined because people had fun there). The second was located on a remote tropical island, so adventurers had to come in by ship (and were allowed to create whatever they wanted as background for the world "outside"). The third, in a homage to Runequest's <i>Pavis</i> is located a difficult trek through hostile nomads who believe that it is evil and that anyone who attempts to exploit it must be killed.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53514990648034450492011-08-27T00:49:49.497-04:002011-08-27T00:49:49.497-04:00I like the World Largest Dungeon. It's very m...I like the World Largest Dungeon. It's very much in the spirit o those 70's third party OD&D dungeons like "Deep Delve" or "Palace of the Vampire Queen " were the GM was expected to mess around with it so it would fit into his campaign ( as any good module should) It might not be a good for someone who wants to play something out of the box without putting much though into it, but fo a GM who likes to tinker with his adventures, yeah, it's pretty good...at least for myself.crowkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03066821931343968827noreply@blogger.com