tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post219542859590043686..comments2024-03-19T03:02:38.228-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Miniatures are Old SchoolJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60409315270623058392012-10-01T12:46:23.358-04:002012-10-01T12:46:23.358-04:00Necro-comment....I enjoy this blog, even if missin...Necro-comment....I enjoy this blog, even if missing the discussion. The question of "what is old school?" is one that certainly has layers. In general, "old school" means simply whatever the generation or two before the current one did. I don't think it actually pertains to a given time. But with RPG gaming, we do have a fixed point with 1974, when Ziggy played guitar, and D&D was born. <br /> So, while it is fair to ascribe old school RPG gaming as 1974-1984 or so, and I appreciate the gold/silver/bronze ages in regard to the game's development/publishing, it does seem that far and away, those qualities described as "old school gaming" have nothing to do with the 70s and early 80s. No one seems to equate the flavor of those times with OSG, so much as the experience. Hence we are able to still enjoy it today. <br /> I'd even go a step further, and say that OSG is not defined by edition or rules set, even as we trace this hobby's lineage. We tend to remember it as the good times of youth. Minis, no minis, OD&D, 2nd edition, even on up to that other game, 4E. Wherever a group of mostly kids are, in a basement, playing one of these games, eating pizza...that is old school. In just a few years, all those kids will look back on it as such. They just don't know it yet. <br /> I am mixing terms here a lot, but as I said, it is a layered thing. There is OSG in terms of D&D chronology, and there is simply the experience, which is not tied to game system or time. Which is a fortunate thing.Michael Scrivenhttp://www.facebook.com/michael.scriven.376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35353930158359758172010-04-21T23:22:48.066-04:002010-04-21T23:22:48.066-04:00We (AD&D) "use" minis. That is, we h...We (AD&D) "use" minis. That is, we have a box of them (now another box as my sister found one of my boxes from when I was a kid and sent them up) and my players use them for their characters. I find it's great for them. They take knowing the PHB seriously since it's their book, and with minis they can plan their moves out in combat and feel like they're putting in their best effort. When a character dies, the player just finds another mini in the box for the next one. No one worries too much about verisimilitude or gets attached to the mini--it's a tool to do a job. For monsters, I use a bunch of keys pried off a computer keyboard (pretty good range of sizes there). Which means it's still imagination supplying the details.<br /><br />I do remember though, that a $1-$3 mini was the kind of thing I could afford at Sword of the Phoenix when I was a kid. It was often in price or begging range. So I ended up with them, and they were a part of the game for me. It was nice to see that old box and my terrible painting jobs again.<br /><br />CAPTCHA: eyslyp. The dryad pours something in the wine and passes you the goblet. An aroma of flowers and dying time fills the tree . . .Michael (in NYC)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07812962280866467016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77736011396623065072010-04-21T21:38:36.874-04:002010-04-21T21:38:36.874-04:00Just so I'm clear -- An unburdened person move...<i>Just so I'm clear -- An unburdened person moves 12" on your table (60 ft), not 24" (120 feet)?</i><br /><br>Correct.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73345253826604045432010-04-16T00:59:58.317-04:002010-04-16T00:59:58.317-04:00Just so I'm clear -- An unburdened person move...Just so I'm clear -- An unburdened person moves 12" on your table (60 ft), not 24" (120 feet)?Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46381385784912360792010-04-15T19:26:52.552-04:002010-04-15T19:26:52.552-04:00And do you use the move/missile/spell ranges in in...<i>And do you use the move/missile/spell ranges in inches as written (like I do), or do you use the book-stipulated 10-feet-unit and convert (i.e., multiply inches by two)?</i><br /><br>I use 5-foot units instead of 10 but otherwise convert the inches, as per the books.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44922001555218478882010-04-15T08:34:05.602-04:002010-04-15T08:34:05.602-04:00Sorry to be coming late to the party; I tried comm...Sorry to be coming late to the party; I tried commenting yesterday morning, but it didn't seem to take...<br /><br />1) Gary once told me that he stopped using his collection of 40mm medieval Elastolin figures once D&D got 'popular', as they were too fragile and expensive to replace when the ham-handed gamers got a hold of them. He also had problems with 'shrinkage', which happened when gamers wanted True Relict of their games with Gary. I asked him about the new 25mm metal figures, and he told me that he didn't like painting them, and he didn't feel like paying somebody to paint them for him.<br /><br />2) We always used miniatures in the original Thursday Night Group at Prof. Barker's; it was the custom of the house that anyone coming into the game would get a personality figure that I'd do up specifically for their character. Prof. Barker, of course, had been hand-carving his own 54mm wooden figures since the 1940's. 'Shrinkage' was a problem for us as well, as there were a few folks who also wanted Authentic Relics of their games with Phil.<br /><br />3) You don't need miniatures per se for the game; it's a handy way to mark things out, but coins, chess pieces, glass marbles, and dice have all been used, and I still use them that way today.<br /><br />4) I agree with the poster who remarked on the grid-based combat systems; it just didn't seem like an RPG, using that method.<br /><br />yours, Chirinechirine ba kalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15089801259918671141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3931094348362887662010-04-14T18:15:46.373-04:002010-04-14T18:15:46.373-04:00limpey: "One of the ideas I found interesting...limpey: "One of the ideas I found interesting from a game I sat in on years ago was that the DM had a table with no grid on it... and when the player cast a spell like fireball, he had to state the range (I want it to burst 12 inches from my position) and THEN the DM would get out a tape measure and measure it... so sometimes it landed a little too close or far away."<br /><br />That's directly from the original <i>Chainmail</i> game. I still use it, too.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64681066827029109302010-04-14T13:37:56.907-04:002010-04-14T13:37:56.907-04:00I started getting minis around the same time I got...I started getting minis around the same time I got into D&D --- we had a chalk board with squares on it or used grease pencil on the formica table top.<br />For monsters we often ended up using whatever we had --- I had Airfix 1/72 Romans, Gauls, knights, etc, that we used as goblins, soldiers, etc., and we would use stuff like dice, rubber monsters, etc. I had a rubber alligator that I used for years as dragons, a hydra, etc. My "Britains" crusaders and Saracens (which are about 2 inches tall) were used as giants.<br />I remember that the 'Bullette' and the 'Rust Monster' were inspired by plastic critters that Gygax bought from the Dime Store. He got these wierd looking creatures in a bag of dinosaurs and decided to make up monsters to go with them.<br />My only objection is the bulk and fragility of my lead minis... these days I keep my older leads at home. I have a few of the wotc plastics for 'go' games and admire their near indestructibility.<br />I'm not opposed to playing without them, but always found it fun... providing there is some compromise between square-counting / bonus whoring by the more competitive minded and expediency.<br />One of the ideas I found interesting from a game I sat in on years ago was that the DM had a table with no grid on it... and when the player cast a spell like fireball, he had to state the range (I want it to burst 12 inches from my position) and THEN the DM would get out a tape measure and measure it... so sometimes it landed a little too close or far away.Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80688529801390733462010-04-14T10:18:21.002-04:002010-04-14T10:18:21.002-04:00Matthew W. Schmeer said: But let's recognize t...<i>Matthew W. Schmeer said: But let's recognize that they aren't a requirement for play.</i><br /><br /><i>James Maliszewski said: I don't think anyone here has come close to suggesting they are, honestly. Rather, it's the opposite notion, that minis aren't part of the hobby, that's being resisted.</i><br /><br />Agreed--as you wrote in your original post. But when I read comments like "There's nothing more deliciously D&D than those Grenadier boxes," then I can see the writing is on the wall for dogmatism to creep in.<br /><br />So, call what I wrote a preemptive strike. You just know somebody is going to come out and try to write a mini-use subsection into their own OSR manifesto, now that a lot of old school bloggers are turning their attention to mini use.Matthew Schmeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11348372645986806502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64598738808873750432010-04-14T08:48:23.706-04:002010-04-14T08:48:23.706-04:00The only thing I've ever used minis for in my ...The only thing I've ever used minis for in my RPGs is to show marching order. This is pretty much how all the groups in my area did D&D in the 1970s and 1980s. The only groups that used minis and battlemats to fight out combats were those who made combat the central feature of the game -- turning the game into more of a wargame than a roleplaying game.<br /><br />I played Ancients minis and lots of AH/SPI wargames before I got into D&D in 1975. One of the reasons I liked D&D was it did not require players to have a lot of small unit tactics skills to play and enjoy the game. I was -- and still am -- awful at small unit tactics (grand tactical and strategic level wargames are another matter). So I really have no interest in having a small unit tactical minis game (or board game) for every combat in my RPGs. Most of the people I've played with over the last 35 years or so have felt the same.<br /><br />Minis were an optional -- and, in mt experience, seldom used for anything but marching order -- back in the day. One of the major things that turns me away from post Skills and Powers D&D is that minis and battlemats became almost required to play and combat ability went from something the character needed to something the player needed, which reduced the pool of players to those who enjoyed (and were good at) tactical minis battles. If later versions of D&D had good with the GURPS method of including a "basic" combat system that need not use counters/minis and battlemats and an "advanced/detailed" combat system that did, both minis-lovers and minis-haters could have been supported.Randallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879930955049101533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54215287433856464912010-04-14T05:16:17.757-04:002010-04-14T05:16:17.757-04:00Maybe what is really objectionable from the old sc...Maybe what is really objectionable from the old school point of view is not the minis, but the grid system of 3rd and 4th edition D&D.<br /><br />D&D used minis and inches, but was based on free-placement tabletop wargaming systems. Now, gridless wargame combat famously leads to disagreements about base contact, putting "english" on movement and facing, line of sight, etc. - one of the reasons gridded wargames came to be so popular. But gridless skirmish combat rules are also a lot more adaptable to improvised or imagined situations. It's clear that people hold a variety of opinions on how to represent the players, dungeon and monsters in D&D, but a grid system - and worse yet, rules and abilities dependent on that system - forces a single solution.<br /><br />Of course, gridded fantasy skirmishes are also as "old school" as Melee, Wizard and The Fantasy Trip. But it's my impression that those proto-Gurps systems were more admired by designers as a tour de force, than embraced by players.Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33174862592362708452010-04-14T00:46:15.147-04:002010-04-14T00:46:15.147-04:00Zanazaz: "Just because EGG didn't use the...Zanazaz: "Just because EGG didn't use them doesn't make it into some kind of glorious edict that must be obeyed."<br /><br />I kind of like minis, and knowing that Gygax disused them explains why we have to edit his rules to make them work.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40343615267244407492010-04-14T00:41:42.714-04:002010-04-14T00:41:42.714-04:00JDJarvis: "AD&D measured everything in &q...JDJarvis: "AD&D measured everything in " for a reason."<br /><br />Honestly, I have to disagree with that. AD&D measured things in inches for legacy reasons only; they'd been developed in Chainmail and copy-and-pasted forward; the inches presented were not (by the book) used in play, and were a dummy unit only.<br /><br />Test question: A totally unburdened PC miniature would move how many inches on the tabletop? (By the book, AD&D) Think carefully!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85762678673403492432010-04-14T00:34:24.497-04:002010-04-14T00:34:24.497-04:00James: "We use 5-foot squares (generally).&qu...James: "We use 5-foot squares (generally)." <br /><br />And do you use the move/missile/spell ranges in inches as written (like I do), or do you use the book-stipulated 10-feet-unit and convert (i.e., multiply inches by two)?Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8764526179224756152010-04-13T22:58:43.223-04:002010-04-13T22:58:43.223-04:00Lead figures weren't that expensive, in most c...Lead figures weren't that expensive, in most cases. Only the superduper big figures, or the real specialty ones, were pricey. Buying huge numbers of them, sure, that would set you back. But people were always giving other people figures they had no use for. Also, I knew people who molded their own in lead, not too expensively. <br /><br />Sigh. Pewter and plastic just aren't the same.<br /><br />But I'm still annoyed at how freakin' sexist, impracticable, and fashion-victim the figures of women characters were. You had to pore over those bags and boxes to even find a few decent ones. Or you ended up having to paint the half-naked ones as being dressed in tight fitting underblouses and hose, since miniskirts and wilderness don't mix.<br /><br />"Ooh, you just lost two hit points from that thorn bush smacking you in some tender places."<br /><br />That's one good thing about those plastic figures -- you can find a lot more fully dressed warrior ladies these days.Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86579477125595643512010-04-13T22:42:14.198-04:002010-04-13T22:42:14.198-04:00I don't think anyone here has come close to su...<em>I don't think anyone here has come close to suggesting they are, honestly. Rather, it's the opposite notion, that minis aren't part of the hobby, that's being resisted. </em><br /><br />I don't think anyone is saying this either.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-837622288051436702010-04-13T22:29:24.275-04:002010-04-13T22:29:24.275-04:00But let's recognize that they aren't a req...<i>But let's recognize that they aren't a requirement for play.</i><br /><br>I don't think anyone here has come close to suggesting they are, honestly. Rather, it's the opposite notion, that minis aren't part of the hobby, that's being resisted.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66345337659275873362010-04-13T22:24:31.320-04:002010-04-13T22:24:31.320-04:00Here's the resistance to minis, in a nutshell,...Here's the resistance to minis, in a nutshell, even though it is not specifically OSR related:<br /><br />http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/acceptance.html<br /><br /><br />That said, I think the advantages and disadvantages have been well hashed out in this thread. I never used minis when I played back in the day--I simply couldn't afford them. And now that I am getting back into the hobby, I still can't afford them. <br /><br />Remember, too, that minis are merely representations of the characters--so there is no real need for them to actually resemble the characters. They are tokens, nothing more, nothing less. <br /><br />I like Aquatic Environment's mention of using chess pieces as minis--the analogy to chess pieces is actually quite good. In a chess set, it doesn't matter what the piece looks like, it matters what it represents in terms of abilities and for individual identification. That's why chess sets can be all fancy-schmancy and actually be iconic representation of the pieces, or be officially licensed products ala the Star Trek or Star Wars or Simpsons chess sets, or be fairly generic in nature. You can teach a kid to play chess without actual chess pieces but using various other representations. Heck, I've seen blog posts where people discuss teaching their kids to play RPGs using action figures and/or toddler toys as minis on a portable whiteboard used as a Battlemat.<br /><br />Minis aren't a "requirement." They don't make the game "more authentic." If you want to be authentic, pick up H.G. Wells' <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3690/3690-h/3690-h.htm" rel="nofollow">Floor Games</a> and <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3691/3691-h/3691-h.htm" rel="nofollow">Little Wars</a> and a whole bunch of lead or tin soldiers.<br /><br />So let's leave it at this: minis are an option--and it is always good to have options. If you enjoy using minis, great, good for you. But let's recognize that they aren't a requirement for play. Because they aren't, just like playing absolutely BTB isn't a requirement.<br /><br />Or, as Bill Maher would say:<br /><br /><em>New House Rule:</em> No more saying "playing the way I play makes me more old school."Matthew Schmeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11348372645986806502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33799544461038929802010-04-13T22:24:24.905-04:002010-04-13T22:24:24.905-04:00Well said, Zanazaz. IT doesn't matter if you u...Well said, Zanazaz. IT doesn't matter if you use minis or not. It's still part of the "old school" experience, but not a deciding factor.blackstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205963961656803303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9112466236569460432010-04-13T21:46:20.388-04:002010-04-13T21:46:20.388-04:00I agree with James, in that I don't understand...I agree with James, in that I don't understand the anti-mini sentiment either. It makes no sense. You can play however you like, but to say it's wrong to use minis? Nope... I've got a great imagination, and minis and terrain only reinforce that, and make it more fun.<br /><br />Also, like many have said it solves arguments. "No! I was no where near that orc!"<br /><br />I remember once we needed a lot of skeletons, so we took a bag of large white lima beans and drew skeletons on them. They were great, and very cost effective, and light weight.<br /><br />That being said I've done it both ways. My first Traveller campaign was mini-free, and it worked great.<br /><br />I just really wonder why so many in the OSR are anti-mini. It's just odd. Just because EGG didn't use them doesn't make it into some kind of glorious edict that must be obeyed. Get real. Game like you want to, but don't criticize how others play. Old school is old school, minis or not...Zanazazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04980968371007703230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63766727387970563752010-04-13T21:28:11.863-04:002010-04-13T21:28:11.863-04:00"There's nothing more deliciously D&D..."There's nothing more deliciously D&D than those Grenadier boxes, filled with partitioned blue foam and lumps of lead that vaguely resemble adventurers and monsters."<br /><br />Hee, hee, hee. Elegantly put. I still pine for those boxed sets when I see 'em on Ebay...Tom O'Bedlamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11821487402927475042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41375198572696847512010-04-13T21:26:13.947-04:002010-04-13T21:26:13.947-04:00Why, why, why in all my gaming years have I never ...Why, why, why in all my gaming years have I never met another DM who uses simple CHESS pieces as minis!? They're cheap, easy to find, come in a variety of sizes, and abstract enough that they don't interfere with your "mind's eye."<br /><br />Chess pieces! Just use 'em!Aquatic Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16113675513839483488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35603754517752772662010-04-13T21:25:11.983-04:002010-04-13T21:25:11.983-04:00In my case it was definitely financial. I couldn&...In my case it was definitely financial. I couldn't afford both the miniatures and all the new games so I never got in the habit of using them. Besides I was the kid in a wargames club, so ended up embarrassed at having so few figures amongst those people with whole armies of exquisitely painted wargames minatures from various periods.<br /><br />There was also the side effect that I tended to be very discerning on the quality of the miniatures (to the level of following the production of specific sculptors), and kind of went overboard on painting the miniatures I did have (which means they were not really suitable for gaming), but did look quite good. But painting each individual scale of a giant snake ... not reccomended.<br /><br />When we later went <i>TFT</i> mad, we generally relied on counters, at least until Steve Jackson got Dennis Loubet to draw the first <i>Cardboard Heroes</i>, at which point they became standard for the game.<br /><br />[And this is the reason why I consider <i>TFT</i> and <i>4e</i> to be boardgames rather than role-playing games, because the essential focus is the godlike maneuvering of the characters by the players, rather than a player identification with the character it raises the players above the battlefield.]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25275937450074553622010-04-13T19:46:50.454-04:002010-04-13T19:46:50.454-04:00Equally true is that arguing (or even discussing) ...<i>Equally true is that arguing (or even discussing) whether miniatures are old school is just plain boring.</i><br /><br>Really? I must be weird then, because I'm actually seeing some interesting discussion going on here, but then, being trapped inside the echo chamber, I would, wouldn't I?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58622530823056362442010-04-13T19:37:31.218-04:002010-04-13T19:37:31.218-04:00What's funny is that as a kid I remember the m...What's funny is that as a kid I remember the minis being part of the entire D&D RPG experience. The game completely consumed my brother and my imaginations and minis that we painted ourselves were just another manifestation of how much we had vested in those characters and the game itself. I had a bard and a blue phraint I was particularly attached to. <br /><br />The few times I DMed as a kid I remember building adventures around some awesome monster mini that I lovingly painted and the moment when I dropped that cool sucker right in the middle of the map and heard the players whistle.Dean Wormerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06214049238722718299noreply@blogger.com