tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post2384686019019960060..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Blue Book, Cover to Cover (Part II)James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35519111744640999642010-07-13T22:06:23.170-04:002010-07-13T22:06:23.170-04:00Matthew,
On the ghoul thing, I was once told it w...Matthew,<br /><br />On the ghoul thing, I was once told it was introduced as a balancing factor, because of the relative point costs of ghouls vs. elves in <i>Chainmail</i>, with elves being expensive enough that it seemed unfair for them to be able to paralyze elves with impunity. I have no idea if this is true, however.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39477822314750384142010-07-13T14:45:32.809-04:002010-07-13T14:45:32.809-04:00Delta,
Heh. Seriously, though, please continue wi...Delta,<br /><br />Heh. Seriously, though, please continue with your corrections. I make no claims to being an expert on Holmes or OD&D, just a guy who loves them both and is trying to understand them better. Any insights you or anyone else has are greatly appreciated.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70759350462760289182010-07-13T13:51:04.234-04:002010-07-13T13:51:04.234-04:00"...so never feel reluctant to correct me.&qu..."...so never feel reluctant to correct me."<br /><br />Watch out, teacher in grade school said that to me once and I didn't shut up for about 6 years. :)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10526029910045745432010-07-13T05:45:39.388-04:002010-07-13T05:45:39.388-04:00So, does anyone know where that Ghoul-Elf thing ca...So, does anyone know where that Ghoul-Elf thing came from anyway? It has always seemed so random to me.Matthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8450513790331875522010-07-12T22:03:22.168-04:002010-07-12T22:03:22.168-04:00I appreciate your assumption of knowledge on my pa...I appreciate your assumption of knowledge on my part, but there are many details of OD&D that often slip my mind, so never feel reluctant to correct me.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4807463291892020492010-07-12T22:01:10.262-04:002010-07-12T22:01:10.262-04:00At first it did cross my mind, then I went "N...At first it did cross my mind, then I went "Nah, James would know about that, I must be mis-remembering"... so thanks to Nathan for the additional kick to look it up.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87311414596017017072010-07-12T18:11:31.636-04:002010-07-12T18:11:31.636-04:00Delta,
Thanks for that. Somehow that slipped my m...Delta,<br /><br />Thanks for that. Somehow that slipped my mind (or I never knew it in the first place!).James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51204921868366628562010-07-12T10:35:36.487-04:002010-07-12T10:35:36.487-04:00Right, it's in the ghoul entry (which is a mor...Right, it's in the ghoul entry (which is a more sensible location, really):<br /><br />"GHOULS: As stated in CHAINMAIL for Wights, Ghouls paralize any normal figure they touch, excluding Elves." [OD&D Vol. 2, p. 9]<br /><br />(Note that the elf-exclusion was not itself in Chainmail.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63411611861941226812010-07-12T01:52:42.602-04:002010-07-12T01:52:42.602-04:00I'm sure that the Elven immunity to ghoul para...I'm sure that the Elven immunity to ghoul paralysis was in OD&D somewhere. Perhaps it's mentioned in the Ghoul's monster entry?Nathan P. Mahneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01184246437497081701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46575980498247043662010-07-11T13:52:15.225-04:002010-07-11T13:52:15.225-04:00Fascinating... I always presumed the opposite to b...<i>Fascinating... I always presumed the opposite to be true, i.e. the game began with pagan theology and was "sanitized" to a more ambiguous model.</i><br /><br>It all makes sense when you realize that OD&D arose out of historical miniatures wargaming, so a medieval Christian background is simply assumed. Plus, it's important not to read the controversies of the 80s WRT Satanism and so forth back into the 70s. Even in the immediate aftermath of the James Egbert case, most of the "concern" about the game centered on players who couldn't separate fantasy from reality and not the whole Jack Chick-eseque nonsense of years later.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7039594371433157992010-07-11T13:07:42.776-04:002010-07-11T13:07:42.776-04:00My assumption--but I have no evidence--is that som...My assumption--but I have no evidence--is that someone, at some point, in some Lake Geneva campaign, said, "I want to play Heliosmashos, priest of Apollo!"<br /><br />The DM said, "Sure, fine, whatever."<br /><br />Two sessions later, something like the following dialogue ensued:<br /><br />"I turn the mummy!"<br /><br />"Do you have a cross?"<br /><br />"What? No, I'm a priest of Apollo. I have a sun medallion."<br /><br />"Well, then, you can't turn the mummy."<br /><br />"Well, that's stupid."<br /><br />"....yes. Yes it is."Adam Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06368676086759298705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18285095414603386842010-07-11T11:46:29.985-04:002010-07-11T11:46:29.985-04:00Fascinating... I always presumed the opposite to b...Fascinating... I always presumed the opposite to be true, i.e. the game began with pagan theology and was "sanitized" to a more ambiguous model.<br /><br />My introduction to the game began with the Mentzer red box set and although my group did procure a copy of the Moldvay books... we never really studied the history of the rules.Praetoriushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615267701681202292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72974168566276598942010-07-11T11:44:14.386-04:002010-07-11T11:44:14.386-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Praetoriushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615267701681202292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64500626217453245652010-07-11T11:04:13.925-04:002010-07-11T11:04:13.925-04:00@Praetorius: "Do you believe the change to Ho...@Praetorius: "Do you believe the change to Holy Symbol is indicative of rules sanitation or just someone realizing that not every church would use the cross as their symbol?"<br /><br />My reading is that it's part of an very awkward switch from an LBB assumption of medieval Christian clerics (spell list mostly from Biblical miracles, level titles from Catholic hierarchy, etc.) to a game-preference for pagan worship. <br /><br />Call it a "realization" if you will, but in common (non-D&D) usage, the word "church" itself implies "Christian".Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31654448124995027622010-07-11T09:23:42.717-04:002010-07-11T09:23:42.717-04:00I believe Will's point is that anyone can carr...<i>I believe Will's point is that anyone can carry a religious icon but it doesn't become a "Holy Symbol" unless wielded by a cleric. Thus Bryolo (the word Verification for this post!) The Mostly Chaste, a Fighter by trade who also happens to be a devout follower of The Church of Whimsy, begins every day with a moment of prayer and devotion. He carries a stone egg (the primary symbol of his order) to aid in prayer. Possesion of that egg may grant hinm some protection over creatures who can not abide The Church of Whimsy but unless the egg is used by a cleric of Whimsy, it has no power to turn undead.</i><br /><br>That's a fair point, I suppose, but my original comment was only that neither OD&D nor Holmes provides any reference to a generic "holy symbol" for purchase, only crosses. Indeed, illustrations of clerics and paladins typically show them wielding or wearing crosses in pursuit of their goals.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1661216925355798352010-07-11T09:18:31.560-04:002010-07-11T09:18:31.560-04:00At the risk of speaking for someone else...
I bel...At the risk of speaking for someone else...<br /><br />I believe Will's point is that anyone can carry a religious icon but it doesn't become a "Holy Symbol" unless wielded by a cleric. Thus Bryolo (the word Verification for this post!) The Mostly Chaste, a Fighter by trade who also happens to be a devout follower of The Church of Whimsy, begins every day with a moment of prayer and devotion. He carries a stone egg (the primary symbol of his order) to aid in prayer. Possesion of that egg may grant hinm some protection over creatures who can not abide The Church of Whimsy but unless the egg is used by a cleric of Whimsy, it has no power to turn undead.Praetoriushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615267701681202292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22355691596900025962010-07-11T08:41:01.718-04:002010-07-11T08:41:01.718-04:00Do you believe the change to Holy Symbol is indica...<i>Do you believe the change to Holy Symbol is indicative of rules sanitation or just someone realizing that not every church would use the cross as their symbol?</i><br /><br>I generally think it's more the latter, since the PHB doesn't reference crosses but rather "holy symbols." The most strident criticisms of <i>D&D</i> from a religious standpoint post-date this change, so it seems unlikely that they're connected, but I could be mistaken.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36355882441338327042010-07-11T08:37:45.513-04:002010-07-11T08:37:45.513-04:00I'm increasingly of the feeling that the 2:1 a...<i>I'm increasingly of the feeling that the 2:1 and 3:1 factors for characteristics were not intended to be actual alterations of the characteristics in OD&D. Instead, they are applied as bonuses to the prime requisite for purposes of working out the experience gain.</i><br /><br>In OD&D proper, I agree, but, by the time of Holmes at least, the earlier intention seems to have been misread and there's text that talks about actually "reducing" on ability score in order to "add to" a prime requisite. This reading carried through into Moldvay, although the precise formulas used were altered from Holmes (who more or less followed OD&D).James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34650369999673396642010-07-11T08:34:31.436-04:002010-07-11T08:34:31.436-04:00Crosses, yes, because only Clerics tend to carry h...<i>Crosses, yes, because only Clerics tend to carry holy symbols but anybody can carry a cross.</i><br /><br>I'm not sure I follow. I'd always assumed it's because early <i>D&D</i>, despite its occasional references to gods and goddesses (which you find in Holmes, for example), also employed an implicit "fairy tale Christianity" mixed with the iconography of Hammer horror films. In my opinion, that explains "anti-clerics" too, but I'm curious about your interpretation.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5838041928361361102010-07-11T08:16:09.015-04:002010-07-11T08:16:09.015-04:00Do you believe the change to Holy Symbol is indica...Do you believe the change to Holy Symbol is indicative of rules sanitation or just someone realizing that not every church would use the cross as their symbol?<br /><br />I remember a friend's chuch passing out pamphlets railing against D&D (actually the examples of deprevity they used were from other RPG systems but those didn't have the name recognition of D&D) and obviously worship of deities was near the top of their list.Praetoriushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615267701681202292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60092107656196757802010-07-11T02:50:48.538-04:002010-07-11T02:50:48.538-04:00I'm increasingly of the feeling that the 2:1 a...I'm increasingly of the feeling that the 2:1 and 3:1 factors for characteristics were not intended to be actual alterations of the characteristics in OD&D. Instead, they are applied as bonuses to the prime requisite for purposes of working out the experience gain.<br /><br />Thus for every full 2 points of Intelligence above 9, and every full 3 points of Wisdom above 9 the fighter's effective Strength was increased by 1 for consulting the experience table. The character's actual characteristics were unchanged.<br /><br />This worked well for pre-Greyhawk OD&D because the prime requisite characteristics didn't otherwise contribute to play unless one used house rules.<br /><br />Post-Greyhawk however, actually increasing the characteristics becomes advantageous for characters as it increases the derived abilities of the character. Prime requisites become much more important, in other words, since they now <i>limit</i> the character's abilities to perform their class role (in the sense that a fighter with Strength 12 is less effective than a fighter with Strength 15).<br /><br />Thus the Holmsean interpretation, where the characteristics are actually changed, became the much more popular one. After all, it made your character "better," at least with regard to your class abilities, even if it meant that your character became more one-dimensional (eg there is no purpose to having a smart or wise fighter). Which I think is the exact opposite of what was originally intended in OD&D. A smart and wise fighter was supposed to be a better fighter, not a worse one.<br /><br />[Disclaimer: We never altered characteristics this way and I don't know anyone who did (at least until the Dwimmermount PBEM <i><grin></i>); but then we skipped straight from OD&D to AD&D, so avoided the whole concept.]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4664257185720690042010-07-11T02:04:16.714-04:002010-07-11T02:04:16.714-04:00@Captain Jack -- It's never to late to make yo...@Captain Jack -- It's never to late to make your own. I'm sure the Osric community would be happy to see them.<br /><br />Side Note -- I'm working on a Witch class for my current SnW game, but it's mostly just a Druid altered to put the spooky factor back in.Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10745062840676790649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88651133780840659422010-07-11T01:07:19.585-04:002010-07-11T01:07:19.585-04:00I noticed the witch comment on my last read throug...I noticed the witch comment on my last read through of Holmes - I totally missed it back in the day.<br /><br />I'm generally in favor of variety. I think AD&D could have used more options like a Witch, some kind of skirmishing fighter - call it a Rogue, perhaps - and a Bard that was actually playable.Captain Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10682678777940123469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18172807829838794302010-07-11T01:00:32.000-04:002010-07-11T01:00:32.000-04:00Crosses, yes, because only Clerics tend to carry h...Crosses, yes, because only Clerics tend to carry holy symbols but anybody can carry a cross. Turning undead is still a Clerical function, but Vampires will still not be able to approach someone strongly presenting a cross.<br /><br />I finally figured that out from reading Blackmoor, wherein it was noted that Vampires would recoil from any holy symbol, not just the cross.Will Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06379173017869751088noreply@blogger.com