tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post2426194254848008115..comments2024-03-19T07:52:04.764-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Sci-Fi ArchetypesJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26538108417033837152022-10-08T03:12:22.597-04:002022-10-08T03:12:22.597-04:00(hello from the future!)
Complaints against the pi...(hello from the future!)<br />Complaints against the pilot "not doing pilot things" is moot. YOU decide what the main activities are in a game. (Based somewhat on common genre tropes.)<br />Case in point: rogues. Searching for traps in dungeons (and the obligatory party role that comes with it) is very much a DnD invented thing. Yet many many games even today feel compelled to include traps and chests with locks that can be picked (not an actual story trope!) just because DnD did it.<br />Trying to force in "Mystic" when magic is alien (hehe get it?) to most sci-fi settings really shows the hack DnD addicted thinking on display here.<br />Just count how often characters are involved in space fights in say, Star Wars. Piloting, operating space cannons and ship repairs might be skills that every party needs.<br />Eg. this is what the "party roles" were in the old SW trilogy:<br />C3P0: diplomat (translator)<br />R2D2: mechanic<br />Han Solo: pilot, underground diplomat, gunfighter<br />Chewbacca: Han Solo: pilot, mechanic, gunfighter<br />Luke: pilot, melee fighter, force magic<br />Leia: rebellion diplomat, gunfighter<br />In any setting with plentiful sci-fi machinery like ships, robots, computer networks etc., skills like piloting, engineering, or programming/hacking are likely to come up often. (the cyberpunk genre really leaned into what you can do with virtual space so there's plenty to steal from.) You can even add things like mecha suits or exo-rigs to be operated with a Pilot class or skill if you want to make Pilot more of a classic fighter class thing. It's all up to you.Vreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17724505940925782459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45220908452072263502010-12-07T16:20:56.328-05:002010-12-07T16:20:56.328-05:00Like some others have said, the problem is that in...Like some others have said, the problem is that in Science Fiction almost all characters are described by a (at a minimum) 2-level grid of archetypes. <br /><br />There is a background archetype (barbarian, noble, fallen noble, creche-born, corn-fed peasant stock, alien, dirt poor, outsider, lost in time, mutant) and occupational/social-role archetype (scientist, commander, criminal, diplomat, scoundrel/rogue/wanderer, technician, warrior, adept/psychic).<br /><br />Race as class is basically using a background fantasy archetype and using it as an occupational/social-role archetype: those who fight, those who pray, those who know, those who take, those who aren't [human]. <br /><br />Of course you're opinion, and mileage, may vary on whether you consider social-role to be defined by background or occupation.<br /><br />James, I know that the idea of 2 archetypes per character is getting very far away from your simple list of space opera archetypes but I would say that keeping anything that might be a background archetype off the list might help simplify things. Other than that I would just add Commander as an archetype.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16111622584335665012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46677016351858936912010-12-03T12:50:34.564-05:002010-12-03T12:50:34.564-05:00'Samurai hat' is your basic feudal honoura...<i>'Samurai hat' is your basic feudal honourable warrior with a preference for up-close combat eg Klingons.<br />'Elf/Faerie hat' is your mystic, with supranormal powers and a byline in riddle-like wisdom</i><br /><br />I can't quite figure out how this is different from archetypes, except that somehow it is. Maybe it's the separation of the character's "nature" from the job. Maybe it's the primitive sentence construction of "Samurai engineer," "elf navigator," "foolhardy smuggler" (a short-lived combination)... Regardless, I like it, assuming a good setting-specific set of each term can be generated. <a href="http://www.theyfightcrime.org/" rel="nofollow">They fight crime!</a>richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6405588203445281332010-12-01T10:14:11.329-05:002010-12-01T10:14:11.329-05:00Personally I think that the space marine archetype...Personally I think that the space marine archetype takes us into the realm of Military Sci-Fi - a different strand to Space Opera. There's always room for overlap though.<br /><br />In other thoughts I was considering sci-fi 'hats'. Space Opera frequently stereotypes future societies (alien or human) with different 'hats'. Humans often have the 'generalist' hat or the 'brave and daring' hat. Sometimes that becomes the 'foolhardy and insane' hat, which can be fun.<br /><br />So each class could be a kind of hat. 'Samurai hat' is your basic feudal honourable warrior with a preference for up-close combat eg Klingons.<br />'Elf/Faerie hat' is your mystic, with supranormal powers and a byline in riddle-like wisdom eg Vulcans or the Beings of Light etc.<br /><br />The actual position in the crew, training, equipment and so forth can then be less important - the PC can do anything they like as long as it is filtered through the lens of their Hat. You can have a soldier with a Mystic Hat, or an engineer with a Cowboy Hat, and so on.<br /><br />They don't have to wear the actual physical hat, unless they want to.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06011974487836242987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91687929993718655432010-12-01T03:29:32.896-05:002010-12-01T03:29:32.896-05:00Not every SF universe requires that everyone know ...Not every SF universe requires that everyone know how to fly a starship, unless interstellar travel vehicles are common and cheap. Plenty of space opera settings feature other methods of space travel like dimensional portals, or unique situations like the Guild navigators of the DUNE universe, that preclude most from knowing how to operate spacecraft. In universes like this, or just ones where spacecraft operation is a rare and unusual skill, the Space Pilot archetype may take on an increased significance.<br /><br />Similarly, the combat archetype depends on the technology of the world. Do soldiers of this universe go into battle in robes with energy swords, or body armor and pulse rifles, or strength-enhanced suits of powered armor, or are they the pilots of hovertanks, mecha, or other unusual vehicle?<br /><br />Another archetype of SF, and SF gaming, is the "Space Marine"--a step above the typical combat archetype, specializing in exo-atmospheric combat, or at least considered tougher than even other combat-oriented PCs. Depending on the universe, they can be unkillable combat machines, or expendable redshirts.wburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15811402557076044374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67390423629238849222010-11-30T13:34:14.726-05:002010-11-30T13:34:14.726-05:00It’s difficult to make generalizations across Sci-...It’s difficult to make generalizations across Sci-Fi or Space Opera, as every story emphasizes different things. But I think most types fall into one of four categories: Combat, Science, Medical, and Tech.<br /><br />STAR TREK<br /><br />Combat<br /> - Command Yellow-shirts (Kirk)<br /> - Security Red-shirts<br />Science<br /> - Science Blue-shirts (Spock)<br />Medical<br /> - Doctor/Nurse Blue-shirts (McCoy, Chapel)<br />Tech<br /> - Engineering Red-shirts (Scott, Uhura)<br /> - Piloting/Navigation Yellow-shirts (Sulu, Chekov)<br /><br />BATTLESTAR GALACTICA<br /><br />Combat<br /> - Colonial Warriors (Apollo, Starbuck, Sheba)<br /> - Command (Adama)<br />Science<br /> - Scientists (Dr. Wilker, Boomer)<br />Medical<br /> - Medtechs (Cassiopeia)<br /> - Doctors (Dr. Salik)<br />Tech<br /> - Ship’s Systems (Tigh, Omega, Athena)<br /><br />STAR WARS<br /><br />Science and Medical are here totally de-emphasized (all handled by droids?). Everyone can fly and fix a ship, and everyone can fire a blaster; Jedi can do all this and more, with no drawbacks. So I see no way to use classes here.Falconerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00474925985191663745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34126927121118913902010-11-29T10:03:49.531-05:002010-11-29T10:03:49.531-05:00I think it's a good idea to clarify that we ar...I think it's a good idea to clarify that we are talking Space Opera here. Sci-fi as a whole is too broad and in several strands completely antithetical to the idea of classes, based as it ofen is on more real individuals rather than groups, logic and new paradigms rather than archetypes of the collective unconscious.<br /><br />So what are the themes in Space Opera? Ensemble casts are more common, so that's good. it also draws on many of the same influences as D&D; westerns and frontier adventure, pulp, boys-own adventures.<br /><br />Looking at Space opera which follows those traits, I think The Myth is right in that it conforms pretty strongly to the D20 Modern attributive heroes with Strong, Fast etc.<br /><br />But to make it more archetypal I would pick out these constants:<br />-The Heavy (uses big weapons or melee).<br />-The Sharpshooter (essentially a space cowboy or sheriff; most likely to also be an ace pilot).<br />-The Brains/scientist (figures out what new things are and how to deal with them, provides exposition for the rest of the crew and the audience).<br />-The Keystone/engineer (gets the most out of what the team already have, rather than the new stuff. Actually embodies the ship or base and hence can often be the ship's computer or something along those lines).<br />-Sidekicks (most often robots, sometimes aliens, often comic relief, relatively helpless but with some very useful skills).(Sidekicks might a kind of shared PC, usable by all all players in addition to their own.)<br /><br />Now one thing no-one has mentioned yet is equipment. Technology is a major part of space opera, and the gadgets a character carries tell you a lot about their role. Do they carry a laser pistol? A big gun? A blade or melee weapon? A scanner of some description? A multitool?<br /><br />I think this standard issue equipment is much more important than and goes beyond the 'can be used by' description for D&D weapons and armour. Space Opera characters exert their archetype using the objects they hold in their hands (if their hands are empty then that tells us something about them too).Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06011974487836242987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91551609132352269602010-11-28T22:30:40.380-05:002010-11-28T22:30:40.380-05:00I love Sci-Fi gaming and really don't like the...I love Sci-Fi gaming and really don't like the concept of classes for that genre. On the other hand, the less 'archtype' oriented concept of a 'job' or 'profession' works well in Sci-Fi. As noted, many Sci-Fi characters are identified less with what they are and more with what they do.<br /><br />Perhaps you're the commander of a spacecraft but your skill set is in military tactics, space combat and engineering. What about the exobiology science specialist who's skilled in first contact diplomacy with the aliens she studies.<br /><br />Unless you're running a setting where certain positions are specifically noted (like Star Trek), a more free form skill system is better than classes in Sci-Fi IMHO.<br /><br />Or you could go to my blog and check out my Galaxy Quest 'classes'/jobs. ;)Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64382381554920952812010-11-28T19:00:30.317-05:002010-11-28T19:00:30.317-05:00Like the cavalier? (Though I think that was a bro...Like the cavalier? (Though I think that was a broken class, especially in its UA version.)Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08868302412533031659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64825308282758288632010-11-28T18:24:59.500-05:002010-11-28T18:24:59.500-05:00Having a pilot class in sci-fi is like having a ho...Having a pilot class in sci-fi is like having a horse riding class in d&d.UWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78826344303485444692010-11-28T17:51:42.727-05:002010-11-28T17:51:42.727-05:00Other archetypes, somewhat redundant with what oth...Other archetypes, somewhat redundant with what others have said:<br /><br />Holy Man, which perhaps could be covered by Diplomat, Rogue, or Mystic, depending on how you play it.<br /><br />Alien combat machine - Worf, Teal'c, Darth Maul.<br /><br />Bizarre alien. The bizarre part might be philosophy, customs, physical abilities, or mystic abilities.<br /><br />Sci Fi characters tend to be jack off all trades and defy categorization, so I agree with others that prefer an open-ended skill system. In Star Wars and Star Trek you expect every character to be able to hold their own in a gunfight, argument, or dogfight. The most natural system for this that I've seen in WEG's D6 Star Wars system.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13315715886823365629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91415517809371673542010-11-28T16:28:25.574-05:002010-11-28T16:28:25.574-05:00On a ship, there are three classes of people. The ...On a ship, there are three classes of people. The pilot, engineer, and generalist. The pilots can't repair everything and the engineers and crew aren't good at flight, navigation, and using the weapons. Three types of specialist found on some ships are scientist, doctor, and combat wombat. Captains are pilots. Rogues and merchants are generalists. They work closer to the rest of the crew than the officers, and they focus on people skills over machine skills.<br /><br />Spock is a multi-classed pilot/scientist.<br /><br />I don't think Luke, Han, and Ben are hero, rogue, and sage because all three of them are pilots. Ben fights and smuggles droids, Han fights, and Luke turns into a sage.<br /><br />Fighter/mage/thief is a closer match, but if science is magic then engineering is alchemy.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11296993172693443930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25594862945760378342010-11-28T14:24:21.321-05:002010-11-28T14:24:21.321-05:00I think it depends on what you mean by 'scienc...I think it depends on what you mean by 'science fiction'. For example in Star Wars you could argue that Luke, Han and Ben are in D&D terms a Fighter, Thief (with thief skills such as 'smuggle goods' and 'bullshit creditors') and Wizard respectively - or in psychological/literary terms a Hero, Trickster and Sage.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11850748231933843552010-11-28T14:20:29.785-05:002010-11-28T14:20:29.785-05:00@Zak:
I'd say that the lucky, sometimes comic...@Zak:<br /><br />I'd say that the lucky, sometimes comically bumbling character can be found in just about any adventure genre including fantasy (maybe Cugel the Clever is one of those?) - but, like the diplomat, D&D has traditionally not had a class for them, it's more a matter of playstyle.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81720591903017705792010-11-28T14:09:58.100-05:002010-11-28T14:09:58.100-05:00For Stars Without Number, my own retro-flavored sc...For Stars Without Number, my own retro-flavored sci-fi game, I broke the classes down into just three- Warriors who excel at fighting things, Experts who focus on non-combat talents, and Psychics who use psionic powers, assuming the DM uses them in his or her world. I preferred to leave a skill-fiend's specific expertise unencoded in the base class, and instead express it with their skill choices and class ability to reroll a failed skill check once per hour. Of course, some DMs find skill systems anathema, but it's just as easy to generalize an Expert's talents so they get an equivalent bonus on any checks relevant to their particular focus. No matter what resolution system is used, "You can roll twice and take the better" is going to help a PC.<br /><br />I can see advantages in trying to encode specific abilities into the class to distinguish a doctor, for example, from a cat burglar. Class-specific mechanics and special abilities are an easy and natural way to give a particular character concept a feeling of uniqueness. Still, I'd want to be very careful that doing so actually was worth the additional mechanical complication and the implicit niche exclusion inherent in a class-based system.<br /><br />If you create the Nerf Wrangler and a Tribble Trainer classes, for example, you're implicitly saying that one PC can't be both a wrangler and a trainer. Those abilities which are archetypal for the two classes are mutually exclusive, unless you gin up some sort of multiclassing system- and in that case, you start to weaken the point of using a class-based system in the first place. Personally, I'm not sure how to approach the problem optimally, in a way that both provides mechanical flavor for a niche and doesn't stomp on crossover characters. What would Star Wars be like if you had to simulate it in a system that only allowed the Pilot class to fly a spaceship in combat?Sine Nominehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18335794366582322514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11709445195679367142010-11-28T12:42:09.947-05:002010-11-28T12:42:09.947-05:00"alien, if your using race as class like OD&a..."alien, if your using race as class like OD&D or Basic"<br /><br />Race wasn't class in OD&D.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42552300378141348132010-11-28T09:14:48.856-05:002010-11-28T09:14:48.856-05:00Diplomat boring? Read the Retief stories by Keith ...Diplomat boring? Read the Retief stories by Keith Laumer, classic sci-fi/space opera and all about a diplomatmartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00595824017884662387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83495260013211287482010-11-28T05:51:32.576-05:002010-11-28T05:51:32.576-05:00...and if you're thinking "action, genius......and if you're thinking "action, genius, means == fighter, MU, thief" you're not far off, except that the man of action does the actual housebreaking. Because I assume that SF, even space opera, has more of a working society, and especially more effective states, than fantasy/wild west does, and that consequently the players will move more within social networks (criminal, diplomatic, law-enforcement etc), so the man of means is the social thief: a social network specialist.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51295465923187604492010-11-28T05:38:42.545-05:002010-11-28T05:38:42.545-05:00Technicians tend to get stuck playing sub-games (t...Technicians tend to get stuck playing sub-games (think "hacker") unless their techniques apply to a wide variety of adventuring tasks, which very often devolve to "being shot at." Scientists and engineers both do what we'd call magic, unless they're stuck trying to fix the hyperdrive again - a job typically with few creative opportunities (unless they're adventure seeds like "get new parts") best left to NPCs. For this reason I generally don't like Zarkov characters in fact, no matter how much I love them in theory: they tend to work by intuitive leaps that don't translate well to the tabletop. UNLESS you're playing WW's first ed. <i>Mage</i>, in which case everyone's a Zarkov, trying to fast-talk the DM and therefore reality itself into complying with their plans. And what you get then is Girl Genius, and perfectly fun but not all the time.<br /><br />In what way were Star Wars 1e's archetypes not character classes? Were there too many of them, or was it because their skills were too explicitly spelled out, or their lack of explicit levels? Many of the examples you cite (including Tough Native) are right there.<br /><br />As a subset, I'd say: <i>Man (or woman, these days) of Action</i> (can shoot, do athletics, fly spaceships, lift boulders <i>by default</i>), <i>Man of Genius</i> (has some magic-approximating skills and maybe a hero-point-based Mage-like "fast talk" ability), <i>Man of Means</i> (persuasive, has local contacts - might be a noble, diplomat, spy, G-man or whatever but is often a penniless gentleman-of-fortune, temporarily without many of his means, but with the means to make more means) and <i>Exotic</i> (brew your own - robot, alien, alien cyborg, brain in jar, sentient hand). These may all be so broad as to seem unusable, but the point is they handle the basic game mechanics, everything else is a story told by the players. <br />So you're wondering what Han Solo is? He's a man of action trying to make it as/split-classed with a man of means. Which is why he's not succeeding at the latter.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81984502604236213902010-11-28T03:43:12.017-05:002010-11-28T03:43:12.017-05:00My favorite is the naive alien fan-service girl, l...My favorite is the naive alien fan-service girl, like Dejah Thoris of Barsoom, Altaira from Forbidden Planet, Lum from Urusei Yatsura, Starfire (Koriand'r) from Teen Titans, Leeloo from The Fifth Element, and so on. Basically, an alien with different set of values or no taboos, so they are generally immodest (walks around naked) and frank with their sexual desires, who are still learning the ways of a modest and sensible world. They are a good mix blatant fan-service and buddy humor. ;PMalcadonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111796978336546944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68456855151163682652010-11-27T21:49:25.061-05:002010-11-27T21:49:25.061-05:00When trying to throw together a sci-fi game I came...When trying to throw together a sci-fi game I came up with those plus...<br />Captain ( a low-level omnicompetent in everything and pretty good at something)<br /><br />seemingly useless and annoying 2nd Stringer (usually played for laughs but occasionally saves everyone. possibly due to a high "luck" stat)<br /><br />and a race-as-class-type alien.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67709064415954720842010-11-27T21:27:37.229-05:002010-11-27T21:27:37.229-05:00... as far as CLASS systems go ...... as far as CLASS systems go ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5052139824999050212010-11-27T21:26:43.581-05:002010-11-27T21:26:43.581-05:00Roles in futuristic and modern systems are so dive...Roles in futuristic and modern systems are so diverse that a skill system makes more sense. However, as far as skill systems go True20's divisions of Adept, Expert, and Warrior might make a good starting point:<br /><br />Warrior: Space Ranger, Mercenary, Bounty Hunter, Primitive, etc.<br /><br />Expert: Scientist, Engineer, Diplomat, Scoundrel, Hacker<br /><br />Adept: Star Knight, Psychic, Cyborg/Robot, Alien<br /><br />In True20, players can customize their characters by taking levels in two or three classes, and GMs have a point system to generate custom classes by mixing progressions in BAB, saving throws, skill points per level, allowed feats, and access to adept powers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34167696496328941272010-11-27T20:52:07.368-05:002010-11-27T20:52:07.368-05:00I started down this path myself and currently work...I started down this path myself and currently working on this.Darksyntaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15255231357026071857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1421085860499832772010-11-27T20:49:41.629-05:002010-11-27T20:49:41.629-05:00Personally, I have a hard time thinking of a Sci-F...Personally, I have a hard time thinking of a Sci-Fi RPG using archetypes/classes. I'm not saying it isn't doable (and maybe I'm a bit jaded by Traveller), but I think that careers or skill packages seem more appropriate to a Sci-Fi RPG. I think TSR's (or was it WOTC) old Buck Rogers and Alternity systems were class-based, and they never felt right to me.<br /><br />Another option that still feels class-like would be to consider the original Star Frontiers model: broad skill categories, with major and minor emphasis on each skill category chosen. For instance, if I wanted a pilot archetype, I would chose the "spacer" skill as a major skill (which could cover piloting, navigation, use of hostile environment equipment, etc.), and then a minor skill to further define the character (like maybe a "merchant/trader" skill to cover haggling, bribery, laws and the like).<br /><br />Of course, a system like this could easily be blended into a "class" system where there are dozens of archetypes, each with a major and minor skill... YMMV.toddroehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05668825555921002430noreply@blogger.com