tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post254484651106388199..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: For the Love of DiceJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81621760173557823162012-04-11T00:46:34.404-04:002012-04-11T00:46:34.404-04:00It would work as follows: in the above example, us...It would work as follows: in the above example, using a sword (which I set to "increment" the die when you exceed the target to hit roll by two.) Thus, if a 14 or 15 is rolled, you just do a D6. If a 16 or 17 is rolled, you roll a D8, while an 18 or 19 would allow a D10. If a 20 were rolled in this particular example, then the maximum range is allowed, D12. Other weapons increment on only 3 or worse, but have other benefits.<br /><br />The main effect is to reward higher level types that have better to hit odds, and thus better chances of rolling more than "just" the number needed to hit, by giving them a wider damage range than a mere D6. This addresses a minor but annoying observation, namely that a uber high level character cannot kill a max hit point 1st level fighting man in a single round (who will have 8, or even 7 hits, but only up to 6 can be inflicted). Not a huge problem, but puzzling.<br /><br />Other effects are assigned to weapons. For example, maces have a chance of stunning on a good hit, swords used against unarmored foes may roll two damage dice and take the higher number (but if used against heavy armored foes - chain mail and plate - they roll two dice and take the LOWER number). And so forth.<br /><br />This has the effect of not only making melee much more interesting, but also has greater verisimilitude.<br /><br />Other tidbits:<br />- Shields improve AC by 2, not one. In addition, all normal missile attacks have a chance of being blocked outright, without even a chance at an attack roll.<br />- Two handed weapons get a +2 to hit. Which means that, even though they use the same base D6, they have an improved chance of scoring higher damage as noted above.<br />- To mirror the +1 bonus for high dexterity with missiles, high strength grants a +1 bonus to melee attacks, reflecting the fact that one can "bull" past an opponents defenses (I've done this, and been scolded by my fencing instructor for having done so.) Note that I do NOT add directly to damage, but obviously the +1 gives a better shot at incrementing the damage die.<br /><br />There is much more, but that is kinda how it will work when I get it all figured out...cagaddanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31677282020474690862012-04-10T07:24:53.417-04:002012-04-10T07:24:53.417-04:00Thanks, Cagadda. The Holmes rules certainly do not...Thanks, Cagadda. The Holmes rules certainly do not ignore the other dice in the rest of the rules; the Wandering Monster table uses d12 for instance, and oil damage is based on d8. Your approach for increased damage on high rolled hits is interesting.Zenopus Archivesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44304721524081475902012-04-10T07:17:46.114-04:002012-04-10T07:17:46.114-04:00One thing to note is that in the Holmes rules, a r...One thing to note is that in the Holmes rules, a round is only 10 seconds long (vs 1 min for AD&D). So it's more that daggers attack 4 times every 20 seconds, swords twice and two-handed swords once. Like I mentioned in the article, I think the rule ultimately goes back to Chainmail.Zenopus Archivesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35628370978807222492012-04-09T17:09:49.122-04:002012-04-09T17:09:49.122-04:00I do find this a very impressive effort on Zenopus...I do find this a very impressive effort on Zenopus' part, trying to stay true to the verbiage in Holmes while eliminating the practical problem of making two handed arms worthless and daggers into super weapons. It is a very good solution to the problem. Were I terribly slavish to stay as true to Holmes as possible, I would adopt this interpretation post haste.<br /><br />Of course, I prefer to have a bit more verisimilitude and further see no need to pretend that the D4, D8, D10, and D12 do not exist, represent some sort of incomprehensible complexity, or are somehow impossible to obtain. And since *monsters* have variable damage dice, why can't characters using weapons?<br /><br />Really, even poll axes or halberds are not that heavy or unwieldy (I know, I own three of them) so the attack every other round does not make sense.<br /><br />My approach is to treat all weaponed attacks as doing a base D6. Notice I say "base". Depending on how well you hit, you can increment the die upwards. Thus, if you need a14 but roll a 19, the higher number counts for something, which also reflects skill better and gives much more room to differentiate weapons.Cagaddanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74784128810539866662012-04-07T08:59:48.152-04:002012-04-07T08:59:48.152-04:00The twice per round for light weapons makes sense ...The twice per round for light weapons makes sense to me, but the "every other round" for heavy weapons seems like an excessive penalty, especially where two-handed swords are concerned (which were not nearly as slow in combat as many people believe, especially in light of the contemporary fighting manuals and modern recreations of those techniques).Gordon Coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8386212867985065552012-04-05T23:57:12.016-04:002012-04-05T23:57:12.016-04:00To be clear: I *do* like the d12 quite a lot and t...To be clear: I *do* like the d12 quite a lot and think it's an underused die, but, yes, I didn't use it in Thousand Suns as a show of support for it :)James Maliszewskihttp://grognardia.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73550411356921199272012-04-05T23:55:07.167-04:002012-04-05T23:55:07.167-04:00 This is rather disappointing to know. Here I was... This is rather disappointing to know. Here I was thinking you were just showing a little love to the most overlooked of the standard set of polyhedrons, the noble d12, which doesn't get a lot of love even in D&D.Stuart Dollarhttp://www.facebook.com/people/Stuart-Dollar/100000246202373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75896548464911210782012-04-05T23:53:21.481-04:002012-04-05T23:53:21.481-04:00D&D without the full array of dice just wouldn...D&D without the full array of dice just wouldn't be the same. Ditto Call of Cthulhu and percentile dice, Traveller and 2d6, Hero system and buckets full of d6's, and World of Darkness with fistfuls of d10s.<br /><br />It's quite clear I never saw the Holmes edition, and my Basic/Expert D&D sets are long, long gone at this point.Stuart Dollarhttp://www.facebook.com/people/Stuart-Dollar/100000246202373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88156083105122727502012-04-05T19:29:19.972-04:002012-04-05T19:29:19.972-04:00Using a two-handed sword forces you to give up a s...Using a two-handed sword forces you to give up a shield. In my mind, that's the penalty you take for the higher damage. I wouldn't worry about room to swing it except in extreme cases (I wouldn't let a PC use it in a crawlspace, for example). K.I.S.S. is my motto.The_Shadow_Knowsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75558613383690787612012-04-05T13:15:03.145-04:002012-04-05T13:15:03.145-04:00High level. The pregens in round 1, levels 6-7, i...High level. The pregens in round 1, levels 6-7, in round 2, levels 8-10. I have the 4th printing, 1978. You're right, it would be interesting to know about the earlier versions.Tom Kimbernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85592617020697128132012-04-05T11:30:42.881-04:002012-04-05T11:30:42.881-04:00"Just rolling d20 and d6 didn't feel righ..."Just rolling d20 and d6 didn't feel right."<br /><br />Hey! That's how The-Dark-Eye-players do it! We use base damage bonuses for different weapons for more variety, though (kinda like the White Box version of Swords & Wizardry AFAIK).<br /><br />The main problem with Holmes' damage rules as written is not making daggers overpowered. It's rocks and even coins that can be turned into lethal weapons - especially if someone throw a handful of them!doreshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29200853662003057092012-04-05T07:33:31.612-04:002012-04-05T07:33:31.612-04:00 Thanks for the info, Tim. I haven't read that... Thanks for the info, Tim. I haven't read that module before. There's an earlier, pre-JG version from 1976; I wonder if the rule was in there?<br /><br />Question: what level of characters are the Gen Con IX Dungeons for?Zenopus Archivesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9424476914385392272012-04-05T07:30:05.317-04:002012-04-05T07:30:05.317-04:00Thanks for the kind words, James!
As a player in...Thanks for the kind words, James! <br /><br />As a player in a regular AD&D game, I agree regarding the various dice. It's just fun.<br /><br />The "fix" I proposed for the Holmes rules could also be adjusted to be based on d8 rather than d6:<br /><br />Light (dagger) - d4 or d8 (1 hit or 2 hit/round)<br />Standard (sword) - d8 (1 hit)<br />Two-handed (sword) - 2d8 (1 hit every other round) or parry<br /><br />This would also allow adding some Medium weapons (mace, perhaps) doing d6/round, and use of more variety of dice.Zenopus Archivesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67272784338488617632012-04-05T07:04:44.223-04:002012-04-05T07:04:44.223-04:00Just a little historical tidbit about the 2/round ...Just a little historical tidbit about the 2/round dagger: In the Gen Con Dungeons IX module, which is “copyright 1978 JG, original copyright 1976 Robert Blake,” there are many tournament rules, non-“official rules,” including “A character armed with a dagger may strike twice each melee round, all others will strike one blow per melee round.”<br /><br />Holmes Rules! :)Tom Kimbernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21569288925348849332012-04-05T06:13:42.723-04:002012-04-05T06:13:42.723-04:00I liked polyhedral dice so much I went on and dev...I liked polyhedral dice so much I went on and developed a D&D variant that was formerly based entirely around them. Only problem was it required d14, d16, d18, and even d24. Until I machined some d14 (and d16), I built some electronic dice rollers, since d14 and d22 are the hardest dice to simulate with a one-roll philosophy. Before that I just cheated and added +1 to the next lower die.Ian Borchardtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86080784383641480812012-04-05T02:24:05.657-04:002012-04-05T02:24:05.657-04:00It seems reasonable to me that a battleaxe has the...It seems reasonable to me that a battleaxe has the ability to deal more damage than a dagger. However, damage output is not everything in a weapon. That's why i like Second Edition's AD&D speedfactor and THAC0 modifiers for different armour types.<br /><br />In addition there should be some "area limitations". One cannot just swing a two handed sword in a 10 feet corridor or in a room with allies and enemies all around him. There is just not enough space for such a move.<br /><br />All these may increase the complexity of the game but they give to the fighter (or fighting man) the same decision-riddle/dilemma that spell memorization gives to spell-casters. As there is not a single best spell then there shouldn't be a single best weapon (which is closely related to damage output -and some rare cases RP preferences- when other factors are eliminated).<br /><br />However, if i had to go with one dice for all weapons i would give each class a different die based on the class' martial prowess/orientationvagvafnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57456070789222735122012-04-05T01:18:09.976-04:002012-04-05T01:18:09.976-04:00Compare/contrast with the D&D-like 1985 RPG Dr...Compare/contrast with the D&D-like 1985 RPG Dragon Warriors by Dave Morris and Oliver Johnson: variable damage by weapon, but damage is a *fixed* number of points!Dallas McNallynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24981624155521958872012-04-04T23:25:12.875-04:002012-04-04T23:25:12.875-04:00"Just rolling d20 and d6 didn't feel righ...<i>"Just rolling d20 and d6 didn't feel right."</i><br /><br />I'm with you all the way on this. I *like* all the odd dice. Even though i admire GURPS and Hero, rolling on d6s just felt a little "flat." That's one reason I like BRP, which sticks with the weird polyherdra. :)Anthony Raganhttp://breeland.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43826821032754163092012-04-04T21:52:02.057-04:002012-04-04T21:52:02.057-04:00I used the d12 because I was adapting a pre-existi...I used the d12 because I was adapting a pre-existing system created by Richard Iorio to my new game and that system used d12. I like the d12 well enough, but, were I to do it again, I would have rather started from scratch and created my own system that used a wider variety of dice.James Maliszewskihttp://grognardia.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62904379208232233792012-04-04T21:39:46.820-04:002012-04-04T21:39:46.820-04:00James,
I may have missed where you've already...James,<br /><br />I may have missed where you've already addressed this issue, but why did you choose d12/12 Degree rule system? Was it just love for the d12, or was it something else?Russ Dibblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5377214968082410542012-04-04T20:22:44.339-04:002012-04-04T20:22:44.339-04:00I will say that moving to "all weapons fo D6&...I will say that moving to "all weapons fo D6" seems to work fine for B/X, simply because ONLY THE DM ROLLS DAMAGE DICE under the rules of that particular edition. Since I roll various types for monsters (as well as all the players), I never get bored with the D6 all the time issue.<br />: )Jonathan Beckernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85779844592743772942012-04-04T18:55:29.967-04:002012-04-04T18:55:29.967-04:00Heya,
I feel the same way Roberto does. I like a...Heya,<br /><br />I feel the same way Roberto does. I like all the dice, of course, but as I get older, it's not as big a deal to me as it once was to use them all. Good games that use one die type or two types or even have fixed damage values for all the weapons are just fine with me. I don't need all the extra dice to make me feel like I'm playing an old school game.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />-TroyTroy Costisicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24701234300135957652012-04-04T17:48:47.147-04:002012-04-04T17:48:47.147-04:00 >> Just rolling d20 and d6 didn't feel ... >> Just rolling d20 and d6 didn't feel right<br /><br /> <br /><br />I agree, but I also like the idea of rolling a single die type for <br />any weapon as a degree of a character's expertise in combat (being <br />lethal with a dagger or a bastard sword in the same way Conan was).<br /><br /><br /><br />That's why I often use <i>fixed class damage die</i> in my games. ^^Roberto Pacininoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51767622550695197162012-04-04T17:46:31.803-04:002012-04-04T17:46:31.803-04:00>> Just rolling d20 and d6 didn't feel r...>> Just rolling d20 and d6 didn't feel right<br /><br /> <br /><br />I agree, but I also like the idea of rolling a single die type for <br />any weapon as a degree of a character's expertise in combat (being <br />lethal with a dagger or a bastard sword in the same way Conan was).<br /><br /><br /><br />That's why I often use <i>fixed class damage die</i> in my games. ^^Roberto Pacininoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20576749259886225502012-04-04T17:11:39.909-04:002012-04-04T17:11:39.909-04:00That's one reason I absolutely love the crazy ...That's one reason I absolutely love the crazy Carcosa dice rules: Roll all the dice, almost every time!Aaron Keshernoreply@blogger.com