tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post2694387619492328620..comments2024-03-28T15:10:21.797-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: More Musings on Ability ScoresJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54439808057873673262009-11-15T06:20:23.010-05:002009-11-15T06:20:23.010-05:00I agree with you in general, however it seems to m...I agree with you in general, however it seems to me that some people here also have a point. <br /><br />I totally agree with zornhau that: <br /><br /><i>if you are a lummox, you could still learn to attack at Level 6, but you'd have almost no chance of pulling off a level 6 move in a fight.</i><br /><br />I think abilities should have an impact on game, but not as significant as it is proposed in new games.<br /><br /><br />I also like Zzarchov's idea of Int giving bonus to experience. Nice twist that could make fighting class characters more interested in that attribute. It could also boost magic users extremely slow development.<br /><br />Finally, I really hate feats and huge lists of skills. I think it's good if a PC has some unique skill or ability, but I wouldn't say, that having 16 such abilities makes a character more special...squidmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03486198900111225929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70057423423788587922009-11-11T17:22:46.987-05:002009-11-11T17:22:46.987-05:00@Austin, Aaron: I've only read early editions ...@Austin, Aaron: I've only read early editions of Tunnels & Trolls, so I can't be certain how close my idea is to T&T talents. I'm not a 4e fan, nor even a 3e or 2e fan, but some comments I've heard about 4e and my disgust with the huge list of 3e feats prompted this idea. I'm against too many lists, though, so I go with a semi-freeform production rule for making new talents.<br /><br /><b>Name of Talent</b> is "ability bonus" plus a specific situation (tool+action or action in environment.) Thus, there can be a "Strength bonus for melee weapon attacks" talent and a "Wisdom bonus for tracking in forests" talent.<br /><br /><b>Alternative Name of Talent</b> is a bit of color and follows the main name; it can be setting specific or invented by players.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2851738648077574292009-11-11T09:06:49.165-05:002009-11-11T09:06:49.165-05:00I vote with Zornhau.
As an experienced and aging m...I vote with Zornhau.<br />As an experienced and aging martial artist,<br />I understand that ability scores matter . . .<br /><br />I do fine sparring in a dojo with padded gloves;<br />However, in a real fight, I understand,<br />I lack my former power (strength)<br />To EASILY overcome the <br /> toughness (constitution) and<br />The quickness (dexterity) of youth.<br /><br />Notice how the ultimate fighting champions<br />Are almost all under thirty<br /><br />The advantage of aging (wisdom) is that<br />When I do land a critical hit,<br />It is far more impressive that that of those<br />Talented young whipper-snappers<br /><br />I use this table for abilities<br /><br />SCORE MODIFIER<br /><br /> <3 -4<br /> 4- 5 -3<br /> 6- 7 -2<br /> 8- 9 -1<br />10-12 +0<br />13-15 +1<br />16-17 +2<br />18-19 +3<br /> 20+ +4clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03647936958773934755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17747092594207514302009-11-11T08:38:26.353-05:002009-11-11T08:38:26.353-05:00> I found the discovery that ability scores in ...> I found the discovery that ability scores in OD&D had very little mechanical effect to be a revelation.<br /><br />If this indeed turns out to be the case, then why even bother having ability scores in the first place?<br /><br />Other than the psychological mindset of wanting to see ability scores, the few D&D games I've played that didn't bother with using ability scores, had very few differences in gameplay compared to normal D&D games (using ability scores).<br /><br />Or for that matter, how much of the gameplay of D&D would be drastically affected without stuff like hit points and XP. (A health condition bar in principle can replace hit points).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88297758751114715162009-11-10T21:48:32.111-05:002009-11-10T21:48:32.111-05:00I found the discovery that ability scores in OD&am...I found the discovery that ability scores in OD&D had very little mechanical effect to be a revelation. This means that the only real function of ability scores is to help guide the player (and DM) about how the character might behave, what sort of actions they might want to undertake, and about how to describe the results the dice are showing. A fighter with STR 17 is no more effective than another fighter of equal level, but the "color" of the game would emphasize his great strength. It also means that characters with bad ability scores are not to be feared, so go ahead and roll straight 3d6's and enjoy describing how your STR 9 fighter is managing to deal out serious damage!shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09538134648966794965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87609885035342540122009-11-10T21:31:38.581-05:002009-11-10T21:31:38.581-05:00I agree with Zornhau, natural ability helps a lot ...I agree with Zornhau, natural ability helps a lot when learning. Naturally sucking does not make you a better student.<br /><br />I think that exp bonus could be dropped for balance reasons, but for a more "realistic model" i would just keep the exp bonus, and discard other ability bonuses.<br /><br />I think that ability score bonuses could remain, modeling; <i>Initial Advantage</i><br /><br />Using a ascending ac system as an example:<br /><br />-BAB progression by class provides a bonus to hit<br />-Ability scores provide a bonus to hit<br />-Keep the highest (they don't stack)<br /><br />You could go wild with ability bonuses like that, but at the same time downplay the effect of ability scores on the long run.<br /><br />About a universal resolution system... it's a philosopher's stone, a waste of time.Felipe Budinichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09755101146972136119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73971985921285708582009-11-10T21:28:14.418-05:002009-11-10T21:28:14.418-05:00Regarding the 'double-dipping' of the Thie...Regarding the 'double-dipping' of the Thief referred to yesterday, that's something I have no problem with. The class is obviously less powerful than the original 3, and I can view the discrepancy above as a sort of class feature to raise them up a little.Nathan P. Mahneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01184246437497081701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35490392892027686512009-11-10T20:35:41.530-05:002009-11-10T20:35:41.530-05:00What if you gave each ability score a benefit or t...What if you gave each ability score a benefit or two, and allowed the player to choose at 1st level?<br /><br />So Strength could provide a small melee damage bonus, or an XP bonus to the Fighter class.<br /><br />Dexterity could provide an Initiative bonus, ranged attack bonus, or XP bonus for the Thief class.<br /><br />Etc etc.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83912676369966270292009-11-10T19:08:02.296-05:002009-11-10T19:08:02.296-05:00"Also, I'm toying with the idea of learna...<i>"Also, I'm toying with the idea of learnable talents that would provide the standard ability bonuses in specific circumstances. So no, high Strength doesn't give you a damage bonus, but you could train in a technique that lets you add a Strength-based bonus to attacks with hand weapons."<br /><br />Sounds similar to 4th edition powers, but maybe less tied to the class? This would be a neat template-style idea.</i><br /><br />Sounds even more like the Talent concept from Tunnels & Trolls 7th edition. That lets you add a bonus to any action related to your talent.<br /><br />And in regards to stats, has anyone ever toyed with the idea of removing the actual stat, and just going with the bonus? So that rather instead of having a STR of 13, you have a STR of +1. If I remember right, Dream Pod 9's Silhouette system (which had way more similarity to D&D than I ever expected) does that with stats.Aaron W. Thornehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09265357352225836802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82054344133297654902009-11-10T18:48:59.412-05:002009-11-10T18:48:59.412-05:00JM, even a +2 bonus for the 16-18 range makes my n...JM, even a +2 bonus for the 16-18 range makes my nervous.<br /><br />But i've always been opposed to high stat bonus modifiers, as they encourage stat creep, and, along with other later D&D features, such as unbalanced specialist classes and variable weapon damage, were harbingers of the current min-max rpg culture.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73780297003223749882009-11-10T17:47:44.519-05:002009-11-10T17:47:44.519-05:00"Also, I'm toying with the idea of learna..."Also, I'm toying with the idea of learnable talents that would provide the standard ability bonuses in specific circumstances. So no, high Strength doesn't give you a damage bonus, but you could train in a technique that lets you add a Strength-based bonus to attacks with hand weapons."<br /><br />Sounds similar to 4th edition powers, but maybe less tied to the class? This would be a neat template-style idea.B. Austin Pricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03478667799049182100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25543511921499225862009-11-10T17:35:19.508-05:002009-11-10T17:35:19.508-05:00Funny, I've been leaning towards almost comple...Funny, I've been leaning towards almost completely eliminating ability bonuses, except in relative terms: if two characters are pitting their strengths (or other ability) against each other, the one who is four or more points higher gets a +1 bonus. A ten-point difference would net a +2. No single character would get a +3 bonus, since that would require an 18-point difference in my scheme, but you might see something like that if you have one group against another in a tug-of-war, or something similar. This minimizes the arms race without rendering abilities meaningless.<br /><br />I do want ability scores to influence the speed of different kinds of non-conflict actions, though. I haven't worked out all the details, but I figure exhausted characters with high Strength should recover faster than others, sick characters with high Con should recover faster, and so on. I guess I could either use a d20 roll under the ability score to speed up recovery or use 1/3 ability and drop fractions to set a relative rate.<br /><br />Also, I'm toying with the idea of learnable talents that would provide the standard ability bonuses in specific circumstances. So no, high Strength doesn't give you a damage bonus, but you could train in a technique that lets you add a Strength-based bonus to attacks with hand weapons.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8883538807233544372009-11-10T16:44:01.804-05:002009-11-10T16:44:01.804-05:00In a few "pickup" D&D games I've...In a few "pickup" D&D games I've played with several non-gamer types, playing without the ability scores and XP actually made the games run a lot more smoothly. We just started the game by choosing a class and particular weapons, armor, etc ... using whatever starting gold one was assigned. The DM handled all the arithmetic for the combat and other stuff.<br /><br />One time there was even a known "munchkin" player who played in such a pickup game with us. This normally munchkin player was actually quite well behaved, and didn't go into "powergamer" mode.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58517799369316005742009-11-10T16:38:26.216-05:002009-11-10T16:38:26.216-05:00Hey, having multiple stats add to your combat abil...Hey, having multiple stats add to your combat ability is classic old school, not only EPT, but also Tunnels & Trolls...<br /><br />Can't go wrong with that! :)AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73747206637261069922009-11-10T16:20:41.174-05:002009-11-10T16:20:41.174-05:00For scores (and wanting +2's), consider readin...For scores (and wanting +2's), consider reading Robertson games. Having a +1 to strength is fine, if you want +2 you need a -1 in another field (like -1 dex for musclebound or -1 int for "brute force and ignorance") that can be justified somehow.<br /><br />Consider making the ability benefits independant of class.<br /><br />Strength, +1 to hit in melee<br />Dex, +1 to hit with missile<br />Con, +1 to saving throw (non-magic)<br />Int, +5% experience<br />Wis, +1 to saving throw (magic)<br />Cha, +1 to morale checks of henchmen (or -1 to enemy morale)<br /><br />and if you can work out a +2 with other negatives (like being musclebound as above) all the better.<br /><br />You could have a musclebound magic user(perhaps a burly shaman) or a brilliant tactician of a fighter. Everything has a use, no matter what you roll. Actual ability benefits modified to taste.Zzarchovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07714805545939725730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12367333727302454532009-11-10T16:08:03.675-05:002009-11-10T16:08:03.675-05:00I usually don't use xp in face-to-face games, ...I usually don't use xp in face-to-face games, only in pbp. I chose a "rythm" at the begining of the campaign, and keep it. Rythm can be quick (one level every two sessions) or lower (one session per level, so a 4th level character needs 4 sessions to level up). It works rather well. I just orget the very bad sessions, when players are tired and just doing everything wrong, and add one fictive session when they achieved a great task. It works rather well - but to do this I don't need any XP's modifiers.Nicolas Dessauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03010015806129652185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10582781773539485952009-11-10T16:01:29.572-05:002009-11-10T16:01:29.572-05:00I think you hit on something there--or brushed aga...I think you hit on something there--or brushed against it.<br /><br />In the older games, experience is the major factor in determining effectiveness, in the newer games, it's often ability scores that the player starts with that determines effectiveness. In the middle games, it's in the middle.<br /><br />An emphasis on one over the other slides the scale one way or the other.<br /><br />The xp bonus seems like a way to "sum over" the various advantages that a high prime req would give a PC and thereby provide a bonus, but by contributing to level rather than directly.<br /><br />It's one of those examples of OD&D abstracting things to a degree that makes them hard to "watch" in action during play.Zak Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05443268280676127815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50788662570765748682009-11-10T15:18:49.692-05:002009-11-10T15:18:49.692-05:00Has anyone tried playing any edition of D&D wi...Has anyone tried playing any edition of D&D without any XP?<br /><br />Back in the day, my first few groups had no idea what XP was. How we "leveled up" was based on the DM's judgment. Typically when we reached a milestone of some sort, the DM would have us level up. Figuring out a clever way of doing something, sometimes led to leveling up faster. Sometimes this involved training, depending on the edition and DM.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79939189012672309992009-11-10T14:47:13.603-05:002009-11-10T14:47:13.603-05:00In fact, the status of abilities score is very unc...In fact, the status of abilities score is very unclear: <br /><br />- few modifiers, which seems to fit better 1d6 chainmail system, still fits 2d6 man-to-man combat, but are better translated in d20 fighting in the Moldvays system (+3 on d20 is roughly +1 on d6)<br /><br />- description strongly suggest they could be used as saves, but the save system ignore them completely. I think the add of the "alternative" player by Gygax erased them, but the descritpion still mention this possibility. So C&C method fits with the earlier D&D.<br /><br />- No other quoted use. The d20 under appears in Moldvay, and the use of DEX for initiative in Holmes.<br /><br />The best part of OD&D abilities is probably their total randomness, but cutting them off comletely don't change the system at all, as it barely refers to it. Pick a class, roll hit points and the game will feel the same.<br /><br />I could add abilities scores are the highway to skills hell :)Nicolas Dessauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03010015806129652185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29832738753644195192009-11-10T14:35:36.362-05:002009-11-10T14:35:36.362-05:00Call it irrational, if you will -- and I recognize...<i>Call it irrational, if you will -- and I recognize that, on some level, it is -- but a universal mechanic is deal breaker for me when playing OD&D. It just doesn't feel right.</i><br /><br />I wouldn't dare call it "irrational," but it's certainly a matter of taste. I'm the opposite of you and believe that ability scores were way underused in the game and that the multiple unrelated subsystems often feel clunky -- or "irrational?" ;-) That's probably why I drifted toward Chaosium-style games, in which I think abilities are more elegantly used.<br /><br />Like I said, "Tasters Choice." :)<br /><br />Security word: "Evera," yet another nonsense name made up for a female Elf wizard PC.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33460609682726659602009-11-10T14:29:17.371-05:002009-11-10T14:29:17.371-05:00I've been playing around with combing D&D ...I've been playing around with combing D&D with The Simple Games System's character generation. Basically, there are 9 possible attributes(e.g. Strong, Clever, Agile etc.) and a character is considered average in every one except they get three picks to be superior; and one pick to be inferior (weak, dumb etc.). You can double pick one to be 'very xxxx' or use a pick to offset your weakness. Or take another weakness to get another superior attribute.<br /><br />So if you are Strong +1 damage, Very Strong +2 damage, Weak -1.<br /><br />The Simple Game System<br />http://tower.newcenturycomputers.net/tsgs.html <br /><br />StuartSturathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16050427037777680033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14844857458254786912009-11-10T13:48:30.778-05:002009-11-10T13:48:30.778-05:00That said, I prefer it when my players start a gam...<i>That said, I prefer it when my players start a game with bonuses not higher than +1, since it prevents the "bonus arms race" with other players and with magical items that they find (which really ought to mean something special).</i><br /><br />In B/X, you can raise your prime attribute by dropping certain other scores, and this can lead to a preponderance of high scores in the PCs' prime attributes. I don't mind the effect this has on play because it provides a disproportionate mechanical advantage to fighters and thieves, who I feel could use a bit of an edge.<br /><br /><i>Usually, of course, the simple 3d6 roll takes care of this itself. Outliers (scores below 6 and above 15) are quite rare in practice, if you don't habitually give your characters mulligans on stat rolls.</i><br /><br />As to low scores, my anecdotal experience indicates that they aren't so rare in practice. Looking at Constitution alone, we've had 5 out of 45 PCs with scores below 6. Of course, such characters quickly remove themselves from play...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84564515431986355002009-11-10T13:47:18.709-05:002009-11-10T13:47:18.709-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Vincent Diakuwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12176340701893887319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6192948988055512022009-11-10T13:32:00.609-05:002009-11-10T13:32:00.609-05:00So if you were to use all of the attributes for co...So if you were to use all of the attributes for combat benefit, I'd do something like this:<br /><br />Str: Bonus to Hit in melee<br />Con: Bonus to Damage in melee<br />Dex: Bonus to AC<br />Int: Bonus to Hit at range<br />Wis: Bonus to Damage at range<br />Cha: Bonus to Initiative<br /><br />Second of all, I've always wondered why a "skill system" hasn't been patterned off of the BAB/THAC0/Combat Matrix formulas.<br /><br />If a "skill" is in the purview of my class its my full Level, if its something my class could have some training in its 1/2 my level. If its something I feel is from my characters background or hobby its 1/4 my level.Cross Planeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00258583245202567276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24156173654067446572009-11-10T13:24:58.806-05:002009-11-10T13:24:58.806-05:00My thoughts on "ability checks" is this-...My thoughts on "ability checks" is this- it's a handy way to adjudicate situations where the results are not assured and where character skill should have a role to play. I don't have to look anything up, I don't have to invent a system on the fly, it's simple, it gives the PCs some idea of what to expect, and I've found that it works pretty well. <br /><br />As far as ability checks undermining class/level, as someone pointed out yesterday and as you seem to be concerned about, James, I figure I let class and level take care of the things explicitly stated in the description- better attacking ability, more spells, higher savings throws. As far as I'm concerned, that's plenty for level increases to cover, and I don't necessarily think it *should* make a difference in any other area. I don't mind a fifth level fighter with a 15 strength having more trouble forcing a door than a 1st level cleric with an 18 strength.TyBannermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241483332119936529noreply@blogger.com