tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post2787641926496567666..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Retrospective: Forgotten Realms Campaign SetJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83009698851724788932009-09-18T02:51:37.645-04:002009-09-18T02:51:37.645-04:00Personally //i would never run agame in Greyhawk, ...Personally //i would never run agame in Greyhawk, sine its fans are very annying when entering cannon mode. :)AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77017819606039936462009-09-17T14:28:06.151-04:002009-09-17T14:28:06.151-04:00I love this discussion. I had a short, sweet D&...I love this discussion. I had a short, sweet D&D playing period in the winter of 80/81 and developed a fondness for Oerth, where we felt we could just fill in the blanks (and there are many in that original box set). I didn't play the game at all for years save for a couple nostalgic sessions (RP games were not cool for women at that time, now nerd-dom is all the rage) My re-introduction to RP games was the Neverwinter Nights computer game on my mac which is set in Forgotten Realms, as are most of the online RP worlds, so, though it wasn't my first choice, I got to know this new setting pretty well. My main complaint is not the huge exegetical literature, but that so many people take it so >seriously!< People nitpick over the mating habits of Gnomes, or the number of market stalls in Illusk or whatever and it's treated with the same utmost seriousness (and barely veiled anger over dissent) as a forum discussion over 16th century Florentine architecture. <br />So - I've found that it really comes down to the gaming group- some people take the flood of TSR generated stuff with the utmost seriousness -it >must< be used... or other, more to my taste, cherry pick the stuff they want and make up the rest. If Drizzt is useful, use him. If Rary or Drax the Invulnerable make sense in your Forgotten Realms 'campaign', then use them instead.lazycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08391072231837230851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81782660303208488702009-09-17T01:18:48.074-04:002009-09-17T01:18:48.074-04:00Wally
it makes sense that gamers would be upset at...Wally<br /><i>it makes sense that gamers would be upset at having their world knowledge challenged. Where can they feel safe if not in their (precious) fantasy worlds? What could be more upsetting than being unsettled in the one environment in which they expect to be free of criticism?</i><br /><br />The poor dears... Torn from their mother's teat!Chris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26112044236119155232009-09-16T22:34:08.341-04:002009-09-16T22:34:08.341-04:00Many of the comments here have summed up why I dis...Many of the comments here have summed up why I dislike playing (and especially running) games in published campaign settings. With dnd I have ran games in Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk and not 100% sure I would give it the same credit as the other three Ravenloft. I've played in just about all of them up through Eberron. <br />First off, I agree with the assessment that the gray box FR set is an excellent product. I also still have a lot of fond memories of Dragonlance Adventures and the Greyhawk box. I use things from each of them still in my own campaign (along with a whole ton of other sources).<br />I have never played in an extended campaign in a published world where at least one jerk (and a lot of these jerks are friends I still love) couldn't keep his mouth shut about x, y or z continuity problem and argue the point until everyone just wanted to watch tv or play cards.<br />A perfect example. I played in a FR campaign that lasted about three years. Everything was fine for quite a while, the DM and two players were hardcore canon fodder. The other three of us didn't give a rat's ass about FR and we all agreed to play sandbox style and that the world was what we made it pretty much from Gray Box and a couple other earlier sourcebooks. Everything was great until another friend of ours (who ran an AWESOME balls-out 3.x Eberron game off and on) joined as a player. My poor kender wild mage (like I said it was a sandbox) had bit the dust the previous session (an unforgiving sandbox ;) ) and I decided I wanted to play an evil cleric (a huge deal, I've played two evil characters in 20 years). The DM gave me a book of gods and says "pick whoever". I ended up picking Iyactu Xvim (sp?). Well, apparently this fella had been destroyed by the calendar date we were playing, and the new player and two others launch into a Gentlemen's and Women's discussion of canon. After about thirty minutes I remembered why I hated FR, and was quite astonished I had been content for two years playing there.<br />To be fair, these are all my friends and there was no argument per se, but when I come to game, I come to game, not listen to an epic retelling of the saga of Drizzt and Pals. <br />I guess I'm in full on Ramble Mode now, or suffering from a touch of Get Off My Lawn, but it's not for me. <br />Anyway, in summation. I think that all of the 1e settings and a couple of the later ones in their earlier sandboxier forms were golden. I think that just about anyone would be hardpressed to play a long campaign in one without at least some dissention in the group. That's why I only run homebrew. Sadly, my homebrew world was begun in RQ and Stormbringer, and the older I get, the less open to other games my players tend to get (at least in my current group, who are all guys I gamed with in high school when we primarily played dnd, and are really gaming more for nostalgia purposes since I moved back here to go to grad school). Oh well, at least I love 1e ad&d...with ascending AC :)tedoponhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18390659501629920232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45017652642024587962009-09-16T21:47:50.977-04:002009-09-16T21:47:50.977-04:00Badmike: Someone correct me if I'm wrong (or b...Badmike: Someone correct me if I'm wrong (or back me up here if you know the source) but I've read somewhere that Ed himself prefers to set his FR games before the Time of Troubles, where it is in a "purer" form closer to his original conception. If Ed can do this I don't see why a good DM can't follow suit.<br /><br />Because the game isn't just about the DM and what version of a campaign setting he wants to use?<br /><br />Everyone seems to be telling me I could have forced the players into "my" version of the realms.<br /><br />But I didn't really want to. They were more comfortable playing in Greyhawk than an alternate realms.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88497139436538295292009-09-16T21:38:19.185-04:002009-09-16T21:38:19.185-04:00"When the PCs express unwelcome assumptions a..."When the PCs express unwelcome assumptions about the campaign, simply tell them that Elminster is dead, the Time of Troubles never happened, and every "account" of Realms history they've read in the novels should have ended with, "and then he woke up."<br /><br />Someone correct me if I'm wrong (or back me up here if you know the source) but I've read somewhere that Ed himself prefers to set his FR games before the Time of Troubles, where it is in a "purer" form closer to his original conception. If Ed can do this I don't see why a good DM can't follow suit.Badmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199830751033032585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34219393541891830912009-09-16T20:19:17.298-04:002009-09-16T20:19:17.298-04:00"Rob: This comment raise up a good point. Why...<em>"Rob: This comment raise up a good point. Why didn't you just make the Forgotten Realms your own? With the canon set by the books you did own (or want to include)."<br /><br />I did. But running a game at a LGS was continually confronted with players who thought they knew the world and were annoyed when they didn't.<br /><br />[...]<br /><br />They preferred a world they didn't know to an "alternate" version of one they did.</em><br /><br />There's some crucial fan-psychology bubbling under your point here, I think. Hardcore gamers tend to be fans, of course, and fans crave <em>consistency</em> (i.e. comfort, a rigidly-enforced creator/audience contract) above nearly all else. With persistent shared fantasy worlds placing such intense buy-in demands, and with one of the key (tacit) satisfactions for fans being 'I know this world and <em>you don't</em>, nah nah nah,' bog-standard exclusionary self-definition stuff really, it makes sense that gamers would be upset at having their world knowledge challenged. Where can they feel safe if not in their (precious) fantasy worlds? What could be more upsetting than being unsettled in the one environment in which they expect to be free of criticism?Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9614321446465209332009-09-16T18:41:17.187-04:002009-09-16T18:41:17.187-04:00Slightly OT, but... think you could talk Paul Jaqu...<i>Slightly OT, but... think you could talk Paul Jaquays into an interview?</i><br /><br>Already under way as we speak. Paul's been busy with a move since he took on a new job, but he has my questions and will get to them as soon as he can.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85220595912941384402009-09-16T18:16:38.175-04:002009-09-16T18:16:38.175-04:00Greyhawk definitely comes with some baggage, too, ...Greyhawk definitely comes with some baggage, too, though obviously not nearly as much as FR. I've had to deal with it in my own game.<br /><br />This past year I've been running an AD&D campaign set in and around Bissel circa 576 CY for a group of reformed 3rd edition D&Ders. It took me months to get through to them that all of the 2e and 3e Greyhawk "canon" they've read (which I hadn't) didn't mean diddly squat. <br /><br />Statements like, "In ten years the Horned Society will be gone, swallowed up by the Empire of Iuz," and, "We stop at Village X, see it's on the Gazetteer map!" (but not on my Darlene map) almost drove me insane. I finally had to explain in no uncertain terms that in MY World of Greyhawk their expectations were invalid. My solution to not having an (acceptable) official AD&D resource for the City of Greyhawk and nearby Castle...? It was blown by the Mad Archmage in an apoplectic fit of peeve.<br /><br />DM fiat is a perfectly reasonable tool for cases like this, IMO, and can be applied just as easily to the Realms. When the PCs express unwelcome assumptions about the campaign, simply tell them that Elminster is dead, the Time of Troubles never happened, and every "account" of Realms history they've read in the novels should have ended with, "and then he woke up."metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74071883070178221502009-09-16T18:14:53.600-04:002009-09-16T18:14:53.600-04:00"Paul Jaquays's The Savage Frontier is an..."Paul Jaquays's The Savage Frontier is an awesome, Wilderlands-style sandbox for the Realms, for example."<br /><br />Oh, that is <i>so</i> unfair. Paul Jaquays would produce awesome fantasy even if he were only given a cheese grater and an old Boggle game. :)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69887277195628868502009-09-16T17:41:08.436-04:002009-09-16T17:41:08.436-04:00Badmike: Wait a sec, Greyhawk doesn't have fan...Badmike: Wait a sec, Greyhawk doesn't have fans with certain expectations????!!!! :)<br /><br />Player *always* have expectations. The question is, am I, as the GM, willing and able to meet them.<br /><br />In the case of Greyhawk, the material I need to master is the AD&D boxed set and a few 32 page adventures (honestly- none of the material in the Greyhawk modules seemed essential to me- you just needed them to get the "feel" of the world down). <br /><br />In the case of FR, its about 20 times that amount of material by page count. <br /><br />And again I ask, why swim upstream against those player expectations, when I can just not run FR and avoid the problem altogether.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2639617409979884002009-09-16T17:13:10.443-04:002009-09-16T17:13:10.443-04:00That sounds like more a problem with the "cul...<i>That sounds like more a problem with the "culture" that surrounds Realms fandom than it does anything having to do with the original boxed set itself.</i><br /><br />But how does one go about eliminating that factor in actual play? Only allow those unfamiliar with FR in as players? If that's not a possibility, engage in a constant negotiation with the players over what "canon" they can introduce or not?<br /><br />I sympathize with RPGObjects_chuck because I've dealt with the same problem he's pointed out, perfectly servicable core settings rendered unplayable by the expectations of even modestly committed fans. The core <i>Vampire</i> book from oWoD presented a neat set up, but trying to keep up with the details the players expected of the published setting made it un-fun. Likewise, I never read a single DL novel, but liked the setting as presented in its AD&D sourcebook. Of course, existing DL fans found it very frustrating to play any games I ran. And who can blame them? <br /><br />Viewed in isolation, I agree that the FR set is great, but its wide fanbase is going to be a factor when you actually try to use it and thus cannot be disregarded; might as well list the FR boxed set's contents as "two booklets, four maps and a whole boatload of pre-existing expectations."E.T.Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10839361427618049936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14101467936851751592009-09-16T16:58:54.579-04:002009-09-16T16:58:54.579-04:00Slightly OT, but... think you could talk Paul Jaqu...Slightly OT, but... think you could talk Paul Jaquays into an interview? He was all over the early years of RPGs!Slaughtermillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11970436092152284178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86001676522922795782009-09-16T16:05:12.215-04:002009-09-16T16:05:12.215-04:00I agree with Chuck. Though the original FR boxed s...I agree with Chuck. Though the original FR boxed set is brilliant (together with the first 5 or so supplements, including the awesome Savage Frontier), it's still (and was even at the time) more developed than Krynn. What made Dragonlance were the characters, not the world itself. Even in the latest 3e incarnation, you get at most a short paragraph for each nation. I played the original DL modules with characters other than the usual Heroes of the Lance, and every time the players had a blast. The setting is quite open to sandbox gaming, since so few is known about the actualy layout of the land, the peoples that inhabit it etc. It also has the advantage that Ansalon is about as large as Europe, which creates all sorts of interesting feedback between the nations, and makes possible for the actions of the PCs to have a quite wide echo.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50904479874488842682009-09-16T15:45:21.848-04:002009-09-16T15:45:21.848-04:00"It's a superb sandbox setting for heroic..."It's a superb sandbox setting for heroic fantasy"<br /><br />Very interesting analysis, thanks. I hadn't thought of it quite like that before.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52172748972043395702009-09-16T14:53:56.559-04:002009-09-16T14:53:56.559-04:00"Paul Jaquays's The Savage Frontier is an..."Paul Jaquays's The Savage Frontier is an awesome, Wilderlands-style sandbox for the Realms, for example."<br /><br />Paul certainly outdid himself here (or at the least matched his typical level of brillance). Hopefully he can attend the next NTRPGCon and I can have time to ask him some specific questions about the development of this supplement. It has a very JG Wilderlands feel to it.Badmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199830751033032585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64742517821767778232009-09-16T14:41:04.696-04:002009-09-16T14:41:04.696-04:00I remember this boxed set well from high school. I...I remember this boxed set well from high school. I thought it was magically delicious.Kiltedyaksmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03462341093016199620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45889168385262448522009-09-16T14:40:37.717-04:002009-09-16T14:40:37.717-04:00Wait a sec, Greyhawk doesn't have fans with ce...Wait a sec, Greyhawk doesn't have fans with certain expectations????!!!! :)<br /><br />This complaint sounds like a "player" problem more than a "setting" problem.Badmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199830751033032585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57364076898020944682009-09-16T13:16:08.142-04:002009-09-16T13:16:08.142-04:00James: That might be true, but its not something t...James: That might be true, but its not something that's easily separated from the realms in my experience. <br /><br />And really, with so many worlds out there, I see no reason to try and fight that culture, when I can just run Greyhawk.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88500288608167577152009-09-16T13:06:03.557-04:002009-09-16T13:06:03.557-04:00When you tell players they're gaming in FR, th...<i>When you tell players they're gaming in FR, they have expectations that they know it.</i><br /><br>That sounds like more a problem with the "culture" that surrounds Realms fandom than it does anything having to do with the original boxed set itself. I think it's a problem common to almost any hardcore group of aficionados.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70366301075738876392009-09-16T13:03:21.585-04:002009-09-16T13:03:21.585-04:00The Grubb quote seems to demonstrate otherwise. Cl...<i>The Grubb quote seems to demonstrate otherwise. Clearly, the game plan from first publication was (a) universal usage for all of AD&D, (b) development by anyone and everyone on staff, (c) getting away from EGG ("rather than one view", etc.), (c) large numbers of sourcebooks, and (d) good heroes instead of mercenary adventurers. I'm surprised that you're able to separate these explicit goals in the publication itself as being only marketing/non-essential qualities.</i><br /><br>Maybe it's because I'd been following the Realms for years in the pages of <i>Dragon</i> and can read between the lines, I don't know. I'm in no way denying that TSR intended the Realms to be a "Trojan Horse," but it's scarcely present in the original boxed set, which is what we're discussing here, not the whole line as it developed over time. Even then, there's a lot to like. Paul Jaquays's <i>The Savage Frontier</i> is an awesome, Wilderlands-style sandbox for the Realms, for example.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13810660575152407592009-09-16T12:48:16.110-04:002009-09-16T12:48:16.110-04:00This one I come down on the other side of the fenc...This one I come down on the other side of the fence, without ever having owned or read FR.<br /><br />"... TSR attempted to push the setting as its sole vision of what D&D was and should be... At least that's how it appeared to many gamers, who soon resented the Realms and its popularity, all the while forgetting that much of what they disliked about the setting had more to do with TSR's marketing than with any essential qualities of the setting itself. "<br /><br />The Grubb quote seems to demonstrate otherwise. Clearly, the game plan from first publication was (a) universal usage for all of AD&D, (b) development by anyone and everyone on staff, (c) getting away from EGG ("rather than one view", etc.), (c) large numbers of sourcebooks, and (d) good heroes instead of mercenary adventurers. I'm surprised that you're able to separate these explicit goals in the publication itself as being only marketing/non-essential qualities.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29766380924633740702009-09-16T12:46:45.152-04:002009-09-16T12:46:45.152-04:00James, let's just say that, having tried to ru...James, let's just say that, having tried to run games in both worlds, it is much easier for me to deal with Dragonlance than FR.<br /><br />I have run the DL series numerous times, sometimes using the pre-gen characters, other times using PCs the players made, and never had any significant problems.<br /><br />On the other hand, FR was a HUGE pain. Players would look at the map and say "well, we can't go here because of X, we can't go here because of y, so we're going through Z".<br /><br />There was no mystery to the world at all.<br /><br />And when I went against those expectations, the players weren't happy. <br /><br />In short, whatever the quality of that initial boxed set, I found you couldn't really just ignore everything that came after, because it was so ubiquitous. <br /><br />When you tell players they're gaming in FR, they have expectations that they know it. <br /><br />Its like telling a group of Britons you're running a game in London. They expect you to get it "right".<br /><br />And it is SO much easier (and more fun) to get Greyhawk or Hyboria "right", because there's less to master.<br /><br />I'm running a game, not doing a research project.Vigilancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12302020918798504358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24552870018287038742009-09-16T12:39:31.520-04:002009-09-16T12:39:31.520-04:00James, I don't understand how you can defend t...<i>James, I don't understand how you can defend the Forgotten Realms and indict Dragonlance for exactly the same thing.<br /><br />They are both brilliant ideas, poorly executed.</i><br /><br>See, I don't think they are "exactly the same thing." <i>Dragonlance</i> was a story wrapped in a world, whereas the Realms was a world in which there were stories. In both cases, I think the stories did violence to what otherwise could have been superb fantasy settings (I actually <i>do</i> think Krynn is nifty). <br /><br />The difference is that <i>Dragonlance</i> was always conceived of as a vehicle for telling a particular story about a particular group of characters and that was <i>never</i> the case with the Realms. Indeed, the Realms novels feature <i>so</i> many different heroes engaged in <i>so</i> world-shattering plotlines that it's very hard to say that any single one of them is the point of the setting, whereas that's clearly <i>not</i> true of <i>Dragonlance</i>.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91900474047642262972009-09-16T12:37:29.094-04:002009-09-16T12:37:29.094-04:00Very interesting insight JB. I'm with you!
On...Very interesting insight JB. I'm with you!<br /><br />On a related note: IMHO, a system that doesn't support crappy PCs is a crappy system.Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.com