tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post2977347007725086080..comments2024-03-19T03:02:38.228-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: TurnaboutJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41211048880522711592012-08-26T02:07:17.045-04:002012-08-26T02:07:17.045-04:00Since I mostly played 2nd ed (with 1st ed influenc...Since I mostly played 2nd ed (with 1st ed influences), I remember when everybody wanted to play elves and half-elves because they had the best racial bonuses (infravision was incredibly useful). <br /><br /><br />Other demi-humans were also popular, to the extent that humans were rare because they provided no in-game benefit.<br />Level limits were intended to offset the huge demi-human advantages, but it was a really poor mechanism to do so. In low level campaigns, nobody was likely to hit the level limit anyway, and in higher level campaigns the level limits were just ignored.<br /><br /><br />I think the better solution would have been to assign penalties to offset the special abilities of the demi-humans. <br /><br /><br />The shorter demi-humans do have some drawbacks (limited weapon and class selections, for example), but not enough to make humans attractive. Elves, in particular, have almost no drawbacks.<br /><br /><br />One of the things I'm doing with my homegrown campaign (based on 1st & 2nd ed AD&D) is getting rid of demi-humans completely as a player character option.<br /><br /><br />Part of this is because I'm sick to death of elves. And part of it is because I don't want to play Tolkien inspired races (there are no elves, dwarves, halflings, or orcs in my campaign). And I got rid of gnomes because Dragonlance ruined them forever.<br /><br /><br />Getting rid of playable demi-humans eliminates the hassle of trying to make humans more attractive, but it also eliminates the eleventy billion PC races in the 3rd and 4th editions that dilluted the games identity.<br /><br /><br />But most of all, I want the game to feel fresh and new again, and I want the fantastic elements to be rare and unusual, so that they actually stand out against the background. Because when everything is amazing, you just get burned out and jaded.<br /><br /><br />I'm tired of having players memorise the monster books and thinking that they know everything. I've shitcanned almost everything in the monster manuals, and changed the rest, because I don't want the Players to be able to expect ANYTHING.<br /><br /><br />By taking away the crutch of player knowledge, I've made the game much more surprising and unpredictable for the players. Even if they think they know what they're up against, they can never be sure of it.<br /><br /><br />But stripping away all of the bloat also allows me to put more emphasis on the human cultures of the world... something that's usually lost in D&D amidst the glut of demihumans that are found in most campaigns.Pistol Petenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15158951958179028482012-06-07T15:37:20.111-04:002012-06-07T15:37:20.111-04:00I've never been fond of using a "stick&qu...I've never been fond of using a "stick" to get players to do something, and level limits are a big stick. Do this, and you get punished. I've also found them logically nonsensical - a halfling thief can advance to 4th level without a problem, but cannot make it to 5th level regardless of his experience? If demihumans take more time to learn something because of their longer lives, then require more XP at all stages, and not just +10% or something minor.<br /><br />Ironically, 3e-style multiclassing allows level limits to work a lot better.Nathan Irvingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49992722845140787792012-06-07T10:15:33.743-04:002012-06-07T10:15:33.743-04:00"you could be a demi-human and be more versat..."you could be a demi-human and be more versatile, or a human and be a specialist" <br /><br />This goes against the very concept of humans and demi-humans. Dwarves are predisposed to be fighters, because of their abilities. Elves are predisposed to be magic users, because of their abilities. So, demi-humans are naturally more likely to specialize. Humans have no inherent advantage in any class, so they would naturally be generalists and more versatile. Just ask Lazarus Long. <br /><br />But wait, the rules go against these natural tendencies in order to push players into playing humans. That says to me that the rule is purely there for social engineering of players, not to represent the setting or the races or anything in the game. In essence, the race limits exist outside of the game in the world of the players.Brett Slocumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82567167099007707062012-06-07T06:45:34.105-04:002012-06-07T06:45:34.105-04:00I remember hitting the level cap on a Cleric/Range...I remember hitting the level cap on a Cleric/Ranger back in the day.<br /><br />But I understand why he had them, otherwise why are humans so dominant, if all the other races live longer (much, much longer in the case of elves). <br /><br />And I think it did help differentiate the other races in terms of play - you could be a demi-human and be more versatile, or a human and be a specialist.Jeremy Zharkovhttp://www.facebook.com/people/Jeremy-Zharkov/100000590970112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33968121085999136082012-06-06T22:29:04.411-04:002012-06-06T22:29:04.411-04:00"Otherwise, I have come to see level limits a..."Otherwise, I have come to see level limits as a distinction without a difference -- a way to rein in demihuman "power" without actually doing so in a way that matters for the vast majority ofD&D campaigns"<br />If it really makes no difference, than why the gnashing of teeth by those who've wanted to primarily play demi-humans since AD&D was published? It does make a difference - people don't like the idea that their character will top out before someone else's. That is, apparently, huge for many. Which makes the de facto tissue-paper strength of the mechanic, given the average length of a campaign, really quite ingenious. <br /><br />You would think that those who love playing demi-humans would allow their eyes to get slightly wide when the realization sinks in, and then shush their like-minded (but less enlightened) fellows. But instead, many choose to play a limitless human, even in short campaigns. Or, complain about the perceived handicapping of their character choice.<br /><br />Going to show that the mechanic works quite well, actually, in its intended purpose. <br /><br />It will always be in place at my table.Steve Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65949277183509737542012-06-06T11:56:31.296-04:002012-06-06T11:56:31.296-04:00True, it is apples and oranges. So I prefer desce...True, it <i>is</i> apples and oranges. So I prefer descending AC, as that's how I originally dealt with it. I figured out THAC0 and I can do it in my head a lot easier than ascending AC.<br /><br />With me its a matter of Old Dog - New Tricks.<br /><br /><b>-DM Glan</b>Glen Hallstromhttp://www.facebook.com/glen.hallstromnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39438829305171638172012-06-06T11:01:31.337-04:002012-06-06T11:01:31.337-04:00To me, the fact that it psychologically encourages...To me, the fact that it psychologically encourages AC inflation is a real difference, and a particularly pernicious one, because on the surface it does seem to be easier to use ascending AC.<br /><br />This is a common mistake that strongly analytical people make: that because something is mathematically equivalent it is also equivalent in practice, and this is not true.<br /><br />Personally, my favorite AC system is descending with strict lower bound of 0. It's also easier to implement weapon versus AC rules when there is a very limited set of armor classes, and each of those things have game world meaning rather than being an abstract difficulty rating. That being said, in a hierarchy of things important to me in D&D, optimal AC rules are way down the list.Brendanhttp://untimately.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44232109371086838102012-06-06T10:47:57.232-04:002012-06-06T10:47:57.232-04:00 "Descending AC never made sense."
Play... "Descending AC never made sense."<br /><br />Players had no problem understanding it for over twenty years. Saying it "never made sense" is a little bit ludicrous, don't you think?<br /><br />Personally I think it makes no real difference which way you run the AC numbers (except that ascending AC may encourage "AC inflation"), but either way it's an abstract number and it's a bit silly to pretend that one way or the other is more "natural".The_Shadow_Knowsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36251989142648411832012-06-06T05:38:15.215-04:002012-06-06T05:38:15.215-04:00Sorry man. Ascending AC should have been the rule...Sorry man. Ascending AC should have been the rule since Greyhawk came out. Descending AC never made sense.<br /><br />But nice to see you joined the sane people on Demihuman limits. :PCaptain Rufus Landalenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48843033981322943352012-06-06T03:22:11.820-04:002012-06-06T03:22:11.820-04:00I think the whole ascending/descending AC issue is...I think the whole ascending/descending AC issue is a false one, at least it seems like that for the way folks talk about.<br /><br />It does not have to do with which system is "better" because they attempt different things. Its apples and oranges, both fruits but different flavor.<br /><br />Descending AC is supposed to be used with attack tables. The ACs could very well be letters A,B,C,D, etc and it would work exactly the same.<br /><br />Ascending AC needs on-the-spot math in addition to rolling dice but does away with tables.<br /><br />Yes, ascending AC does tend to inflate the range values overtime because that is the way human brains are built: More = Good!Captain Vargrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3362184376614450052012-06-06T03:14:01.749-04:002012-06-06T03:14:01.749-04:00I've read those. Funny thing is even with &quo...I've read those. Funny thing is even with "buckets of dice" there's a good chance you can't qualify for some classes while using their entry.Captain Vargrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62913964534149978062012-06-06T03:12:34.536-04:002012-06-06T03:12:34.536-04:00Precisely Slerotin. I for one like Dwarves but it...Precisely Slerotin. I for one like Dwarves but it has nothing to do with their inherent magic resistance or ability to find stone traps. I simply enjoy the concept of the race.<br /><br />And I've been of the opinion Elves would not be as popular or have so many variant races if it wasn't for the ubber-bennies associated with them.<br /><br />I also never understood the concept behind multi-classing for demihumans only. I get that longer-lived beings could take time to specialize on different areas, but demihuman PCs are all the equivalent of young adults for their race, and Half-Orcs are just shaggy ugly humans in that sense. Are their universities that good?Captain Vargrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19717271456903816342012-06-05T19:02:34.117-04:002012-06-05T19:02:34.117-04:00You ascending AC heretics, on the other hand, I...<i><br />You ascending AC heretics, on the other hand, I'm still at war with you.</i><br /><br />Ah, a kindred spirit. That's ONE change I'll never reconcile with (well, that and Fort/Ref/Will). Yes, I did at one time play 3.5 but no more. Decending AC is the way I lairned it and that's the way I'll play it.<br /><br /><b>-SJ</b>Glen Hallstromhttp://www.facebook.com/glen.hallstromnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11116100036584027852012-06-05T18:40:57.509-04:002012-06-05T18:40:57.509-04:00"You ascending AC heretics, on the other hand..."You ascending AC heretics, on the other hand, I'm still at war with you."<br /><br />As I prepare to run a Chainmail game at North Texas RPG Con, I am reminded that ascending AC is the original method in the man-to-man combat tables. The AC is unnumbered on the melee chart but is numbered ascending on the ranged chart. Just saying ;-)Marshall Mahurinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58619361736885623562012-06-05T18:40:46.633-04:002012-06-05T18:40:46.633-04:00"You ascending AC heretics, on the other hand..."You ascending AC heretics, on the other hand, I'm still at war with you."<br /><br />As I prepare to run a Chainmail game at North Texas RPG Con, I am reminded that ascending AC is the original method in the man-to-man combat tables. The AC is unnumbered on the melee chart but is numbered ascending on the ranged chart. Just saying ;-)Marshall Mahurinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80777264034495242982012-06-05T15:41:55.247-04:002012-06-05T15:41:55.247-04:00 Good post. This is exactly why I play Old School... Good post. This is exactly why I play Old School.The_Shadow_Knowsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57415690171491168572012-06-05T15:40:47.330-04:002012-06-05T15:40:47.330-04:00 I agree. I have no problem with level limits (es... I agree. I have no problem with level limits (especially since they rarely matter anyway in practice).The_Shadow_Knowsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1192682966612907022012-06-05T11:07:32.284-04:002012-06-05T11:07:32.284-04:00 I never saw it happen in 10 years of running 1st ... I never saw it happen in 10 years of running 1st edition.The_Shadow_Knowsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73549066320646214602012-06-05T11:06:04.961-04:002012-06-05T11:06:04.961-04:00 "I considered a system with Elves getting 10... "I considered a system with Elves getting 10% of normal xp (dwarves 20% etc.)"<br /><br />Personally I think that's a little harsh. Demihumans would effectively never gain levels in most campaigns.The_Shadow_Knowsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27884846722376087902012-06-05T11:03:36.316-04:002012-06-05T11:03:36.316-04:00"My recollection of the good ol' days is ..."My recollection of the good ol' days is that it was uncommon, even when <br />we played nearly daily, for PCs to get much higher than 9th or 10th <br />level, meaning that neither dwarves nor elves would feel the bite of <br />level limits, generally speaking."<br /><br />This is my recollection as well. My longest 1st edition campaign (2 years played weekly) only saw the PC's around 8th level, and no one had hit their level limit.<br /><br />Also, my recollection is that virtually no one played a single classed demihuman character, with the occasional exception of dwarf fighters. They were almost always multiclassed, which slows down advancement in each class considerably. When my long campaign ended the human players were around 8th level, but the party leader (a half-elven cleric/ranger) was something like 5th/4th.The_Shadow_Knowsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16766113753345415112012-06-05T09:53:05.533-04:002012-06-05T09:53:05.533-04:00And you could role play their affinities, likes, d...And you could role play their affinities, likes, dislikes, and aptitudes. Elves would tend to take longsword proficiency, dwarves would take appropriate secondary skills, etc. Extra languages would be based on Intelligence only (just like humans). <br /><br />Or you could keep some bonuses, but apply penalties of equal magnitude in other (useful) areas.Slerotinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89248122994891578362012-06-05T03:08:45.718-04:002012-06-05T03:08:45.718-04:00I would accept class level restrictions in non-hum...I would accept class level restrictions in non-human races as long as the latter had some sort of race level advancement indifferent to class. For instance, dwarves could regenerate, walk through stone, speak with earth etc etc. Elves could "return from the dead" freely, speak with plants and animals, scry with their spirit etc.<br /><br />This could be gained as class level increases or as soon as the class limit was reached. This way the non-human races would have something magical and mysterious surrounding them, sacrificing the crazy will for constant progression (as human have) but still remain competent. Vagvafnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66185234527404652802012-06-05T01:59:42.075-04:002012-06-05T01:59:42.075-04:00The place where I find that level caps make a big,...The place where I find that level caps make a big, flavorful difference are cases where parties are being generated at a high level -- e.g., one-shot tournaments, such as my recent G1-3 games. If the nominal level is above the caps then you get your world-breaking parties made of all humans; excepting certain demi-human thief combos.deltanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56044493972144812562012-06-05T00:26:39.807-04:002012-06-05T00:26:39.807-04:00Most of my players were human. Non human PCs tende...Most of my players were human. Non human PCs tended to advance just under the cap as it rose with different supplements / editions. I always thought if they really wanted to limit non human PCs they should have penalized them in experience and slowed their advance. I considered a system with Elves getting 10% of normal xp (dwarves 20% etc.) effectively slowing their progression to about the same as a human of the same effective racial age range. The humans progressed faster because they were more driven / had less time. demihumans progressed more slowly reflecting their lack of drive and slower development. Never implemented it because level caps weren't being reached and my one (at the time) elf player would have had a cow :)hubbell_brucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28685816561290900172012-06-04T23:49:54.514-04:002012-06-04T23:49:54.514-04:00I have IMHO the perfect solution for the level-lim...I have IMHO the perfect solution for the level-limit issue of demihumans.<br /><br />Do away with level-limits, demihumans can play whatever class they want if it fits the zeitgest of the setting and their ability scores qualify.<br /><br />But remove any and all racial abilities and modifiers. No ability scores pluses or minuses, no inherent skills, no perception bonuses or infravision, no increases to attack scores with specific weapons, no extra free languages, no modifiers to saving throws or racial saving throw tables, no immunities, no racial classes. Nada, zip, zilch, zero.<br /><br />The only thing that defines a demihuman is greater longevity (irrelevant unless generations of time pass during your campaign), a racial language, physical appearance, size and the attitudes of outsiders towards them. Captain Vargrnoreply@blogger.com