tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post3078959401663082347..comments2024-03-19T07:56:00.031-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Locale and PlotJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20522628144630848822010-09-02T09:31:10.265-04:002010-09-02T09:31:10.265-04:00I just finished running Dwellers with a group of 1...I just finished running Dwellers with a group of 18-year-old players. I adapted the rules to the Pathfinder game, but kept most of the setting & monsters intact. Since it was the last game of the summer, I threw in a lich and a shadow demon to see if they could survive some extra challenges. A great time was had by all!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84358561880814844812009-07-28T16:37:27.590-04:002009-07-28T16:37:27.590-04:00Locale based modules works well with the Spiral Me...Locale based modules works well with the Spiral Method, and I find it mitigates the tendency toward Railroading. I'm all for it.<br /><br />We found the Spiral Method discussed here: <br /><br />http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=397<br /><br />:)<br />Mark of LRPGSWvbwyrdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14031787268876015417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62948471008408027562009-01-13T02:18:00.000-05:002009-01-13T02:18:00.000-05:00I'm not sure if a gaming career that started in 19...I'm not sure if a gaming career that started in 1989 counts as a "grognard", but the question of which modules I've run more than once piqued my interest.<BR/><BR/><B>B3 - Palace of the Silver Princess</B>. This was the first module I ever owned. My first D&D game was the Mentzer Basic Set. B3 was the only module I could afford (by virtue of being in the used section) in the appropriate level range. Being my first and (for a time) only module, it got a lot of use and a fond place in my heart.<BR/><BR/><B>Tomb of Horrors</B>. This is one of the best one-shot adventures ever done. I've run it many times.<BR/><BR/><B>Three Days to Kill</B>, <B>Death in Freeport</B>, and <B>The Sunless Citadel</B>. These are what I typically think of as the "inaugural trilogy" of 3rd Edition. <I>Three Days to Kill</I> has served as both a solid one-shot and as the launching pad for a campaign. <I>Death in Freeport</I> has launched two campaigns. I have run or played <I>The Sunless Citadel</I> no less than four times, making it the module I've used more than any other.<BR/><BR/>I think the nature of this list has a lot to do with the fact I used to be more of purist homebrewer in my 2nd Edition days. These days I'm far more likely to use a mixture of homebrew and published material, since I find that:<BR/><BR/>(a) It makes it easier to prep an open sandbox campaign when I can occasionally fall back on other people's work; and <BR/><BR/>(b) I find it entertaining and enlightening to interject someone else's viewpoint. <BR/><BR/>I'm also an actor, and one of the things I love about acting is taking a character created by someone else, interpreting it, and creating it anew in my own performance.<BR/><BR/>Using a module designed by someone else has the same type of appeal: It injects both a freshness and a different kind of creativity into my game.Justin Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02227895898395353754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82101437355502755212008-10-30T17:47:00.000-04:002008-10-30T17:47:00.000-04:00This really was an amazing module. It introduced o...This really was an amazing module. It introduced one of the best D&D villains, the Yuan Ti, and tons of other interesting creatures and their own factions.<BR/><BR/>For a similar type of module (but not as awesome of course), check out Mechica, an old Dragon magazine mdoule, which is based in an Aztec/Mayan-city.tkyang99https://www.blogger.com/profile/10080936804554418878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91182464489724763702008-08-22T13:22:00.000-04:002008-08-22T13:22:00.000-04:00I think that the point herb was trying to make was...<I>I think that the point herb was trying to make was his dissatisfaction with how many modules have a story that is basically like a bus on which the characters go for a ride.</I><BR/><BR/>Yep, that's it.<BR/><BR/>That's why I cited Tribe 8 specifically because it has brilliant and original ideas, but the "adventure books" were basically novels you got to narrate to the players while they moved their character from theater to theater.<BR/><BR/>Then again, that happens a lot with homebrew. One of the most insightful things Ron Edwards did say was in "Fantasy Heartbreakers":<BR/><I>Each of these games is clearly written by a GM who would very much like all the players simply to shut up and play their characters without interfering with "what's really happening."</I><BR/><BR/>That describes too many modules with plot.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66339725160298918782008-08-22T13:14:00.000-04:002008-08-22T13:14:00.000-04:00Either the PCs' actions are constricted by the plo...<I>Either the PCs' actions are constricted by the plot or they're mostly tourists</I><BR/>- and -<BR/><I>I find all this hating on plot a bit mysterious</I><BR/><BR/>I think the trick is to have an idea of what would happen sans the character interaction and then being able to have this adjust to the characters actions as they explore with the locations. I think that the point herb was trying to make (and herb, don't let me put words in your mouth) was his dissatisfaction with how many modules have a story that is basically like a bus on which the characters go for a ride.P_Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12374589162025099763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23577999254127516622008-08-22T12:22:00.000-04:002008-08-22T12:22:00.000-04:00I haven’t run a lot of modules, and I am almost al...I haven’t run a lot of modules, and I am almost always disappointed by the results when I do.<BR/><BR/>I also think I do better when I don’t worry about being original, steal liberally, leverage cliché, and minimize prep in favor of winging things. So, for me, they tend to be false time-savers.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38893640517666260192008-08-21T22:47:00.000-04:002008-08-21T22:47:00.000-04:00As an old CoC head I find all this hating on plot ...<I>As an old CoC head I find all this hating on plot a bit mysterious.</I><BR/><BR/>Most CoC adventures are mysteries the characters stumble upon and then decide to unravel. The best of them depend very heavily on player action in order to resolve them.<BR/><BR/>(Of course, CoC reduces many investigative elements to dice rolls, so it's not an old school game anyway, certainly not a pure one)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83975260184224370262008-08-21T22:36:00.000-04:002008-08-21T22:36:00.000-04:00Either the PCs' actions are constricted by the plo...<I>Either the PCs' actions are constricted by the plot or they're mostly tourists</I><BR/><BR/>As an old CoC head I find all this hating on plot a bit mysterious. Does trouble never come to the PCs? Do they have nothing they're afraid to lose? Is nothing happening in their world that they need to keep tabs on, or that threatens to become a problem if ignored? Are the monsters not doing anything monstrous that threatens the powerless and potentially grateful? I dunno, it seems to me there must be some good way of having stories in games that aren't purely artifacts of PC action...richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20685455287729189402008-08-21T18:08:00.000-04:002008-08-21T18:08:00.000-04:00I rejected the shift in modules from locales to pl...I rejected the shift in modules from locales to plots. Oh, I tried a few plot modules here and there, but by and large, I found them not interesting.<BR/><BR/>As to modules and time. I certainly have less time as an working man, and even less time as a married man, yet I'm in the process of working up a mega-dungeon of my own. One of the things that makes it so possible - I can write up an encounter in a minute or three. The added complexity of D&D 3.x made (which I didn't exactly run - I ran Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved) made it such that I spent a couple HOURS writing up an encounter.<BR/><BR/>I started off running modules not so much for time saving, but for the ideas, and because they were there, and I needed something to spend my paper route money on, and then having them, I certainly wanted to run them. Later in college, when I stopped running AD&D, the modules still got used, but converted to whatever system I was running at the time (sometimes on the fly, sometimes pre-prepped).<BR/><BR/>My biggest reason for going back to OD&D isn't so much for the old schoolness as for the simpler rules and simpler prep. But I also like that it enables dungeon exploration. A mega-dungeon wouldn't work well in 3.x for a number of reasons, from rules complexity (and longer times to run an encounter) to the 13 encounters = 1 level gained.<BR/><BR/>FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71791854234727785482008-08-21T17:41:00.000-04:002008-08-21T17:41:00.000-04:00However, I am not too sure what shape such a produ...<I>However, I am not too sure what shape such a product would take as I don’t think a new GD-like super module would be well received by the market when compared to the Paizo stuff.</I><BR/><BR/>How about something like the appendix to the LotR: maps, people, and what's going to happen in the next X days/months/year.<BR/><BR/>Those things that will happen would be 1-5 plot lines that can be wound up and happen exactly as written unless you add a new force.<BR/><BR/>So you do, you call them PCs.<BR/><BR/>See, that addresses my primary complaint with story modules. Either the PCs are the main characters and their actions are constricted by the plot (Pathfinder) or the plot happens regardless of the PCs and they're mostly tourists (Tribe 8).Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39251816983397150552008-08-21T17:39:00.000-04:002008-08-21T17:39:00.000-04:00It also just oozes the pulp fantasy inspirations t...<I>It also just oozes the pulp fantasy inspirations that started this whole game.</I><BR/><BR/>It does indeed. That's part of why I love the thing. The whole module drips with pulpy goodness and I can't help but want to pick it up and play through it again.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8691781276215336672008-08-21T17:37:00.000-04:002008-08-21T17:37:00.000-04:00However, I am not too sure what shape such a produ...<I>However, I am not too sure what shape such a product would take as I don’t think a new GD-like super module would be well received by the market when compared to the Paizo stuff.</I><BR/><BR/>I have some ideas on this score and may make a post about it in the future. Suffice it to say that I agree with you that, in principle, there could be a merging of the adventure path idea with the locale-based modules of old. The resulting fusion would be a weird one, but it might just be the means to square the circle I'm looking for.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64103374193918967242008-08-21T16:06:00.000-04:002008-08-21T16:06:00.000-04:00Philotomy:I wish I could claim my early stuff was ...Philotomy:<BR/><BR/>I wish I could claim my early stuff was that inventive or good. A lot of it was poorly done knock offs, but at least they were mine.<BR/><BR/>Easily coming to mind is the Three Forts of the Dwarven King. Terry Brooks would probably call them derivative.<BR/><BR/>Still they later became, with much revision, a huge underground complex which was the center of what I consider my first real campaign. Which gives me an idea for a blog post.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47412042365928734072008-08-21T15:57:00.000-04:002008-08-21T15:57:00.000-04:00You don't lose any old school points with me, Herb...You don't lose any old school points with me, Herb. I think doing it yourself or stealing bits and pieces from modules as inspiration is very old school.<BR/><BR/>I think many modules are classic, of course, but not necessarily representative of the way the early campaigns were played. Often, the modules were a more tournament style affair, the dungeons more like well-defined lairs, rather than chaotic and sprawling underworlds, et cetera. <BR/><BR/>I think the oldest of the old school is for a referee to create a sandbox wilderness with at least one deep and sprawling underworld dungeon of his own devising (with lots of space, including relatively empty areas), and probably other less expansive dungeons and sites, as well. The kind of underworld dungeon I associate with this kind of play doesn't translate into a publishable module very well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58731684849599156982008-08-21T14:28:00.000-04:002008-08-21T14:28:00.000-04:00On a different point, modules are where I lose my ...On a different point, modules are where I lose my old school points.<BR/><BR/>I've never played or run T1, the GDQ series, White Plume, Peaks, etc.<BR/><BR/>I've run B1.<BR/><BR/>I've been through S1.<BR/><BR/>I owned G1, B1, B2, S1-4, and T1. Plus a bunch of JG stuff. I stole tons from them but never actually played them much.<BR/><BR/>I think that might come from buying Holmes bare and GW boxed. I never had modules until I'd been making my own stuff for a couple of years. <BR/><BR/>What's so funny is I consider myself lucky in that.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83701769085818545132008-08-21T14:25:00.000-04:002008-08-21T14:25:00.000-04:00I know you don't believe it. I just find it so non...I know you don't believe it. I just find it so nonsensical because it fails the basic logic test I gave above.<BR/><BR/>What I suspect is really going on is some people did spend all their free time (or much of it) on RPGs as kids. I know I did. Thus, they don't have as much time as they did thus it must not be possible to create your own stuff.<BR/><BR/>Which gets it backwards. Kids are able to prep more/more detail/etc, not able to prep period.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58595260803307093032008-08-21T14:22:00.000-04:002008-08-21T14:22:00.000-04:00Then how did Gygax (a father with kids) have time ...<I>Then how did Gygax (a father with kids) have time not only to write his own adventures but create the game?</I><BR/><BR/>Bear in mind that I don't actually believe that gamers today have less time than they did in the past, but I do think that gamers (and game companies) believe that they do. If I'm right, some of the shift toward the "story in a box" approach to adventure modules is based on a misapprehension rather than firm knowledge of the realities of the market.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68903087801873928982008-08-21T14:19:00.000-04:002008-08-21T14:19:00.000-04:00To some extent, I expect that the shift away from ...<I>To some extent, I expect that the shift away from the location-based approach is a concession to the oft-repeated saw that gamers no longer have as much free time to make things up as they once did. I think this is hooey myself.</I><BR/><BR/>Then how did Gygax (a father with kids) have time not only to write his own adventures but create the game?Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76523786332600613812008-08-21T13:49:00.000-04:002008-08-21T13:49:00.000-04:00Well, Keep on the Borderlands was really fun from ...Well, Keep on the Borderlands was really fun from both sides of the screen. A simple setting with lots of room for modification. I actually ran a "Back to the KotB" and moved a lot of the monsters around, including moving the gnoll tribe out into the plains. <BR/><BR/>I do think there's room for both types of adventures out there, even in the new school "plot driven" age. I'm the sacrificial DM for 4th edition in our group and I'll be trying the "Scales of War" adventure path. (and blogging about it here http://tipscales.blogspot.com/)<BR/>As I'm not a regular DM, its actually nice to have a setting and plot layed out for me.<BR/>At the same time, if I were to run something of my own creation, it would probably be more locale based, although a lot would be predicated on what the players wanted. Our group is fairly used to playing plot centered stories, and our regular gm is really good at putting them together, so our expectations in this area might be different from the average grognard.<BR/><BR/>Oh yeah, I think every group I've ever played with has run "Against the Giants" at least twice.Blotzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06993967190131485391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86548687100224845792008-08-21T13:34:00.000-04:002008-08-21T13:34:00.000-04:00James,(I've been lurking and just got caught up wi...James,<BR/>(I've been lurking and just got caught up with the blog yesterday. I can't think of a better time to introduce myself.)<BR/><BR/><I>Dwellers</I> is without a doubt my favorite module to run as a DM. For many years it was never even mentioned by other DMs I've encountered, so I've always thought that it was just a fluke on my part.<BR/><BR/>As you've pointed out, <I>Dwellers</I> succeeds simply because it is a simple framework that allows the DM to graft his own flesh onto and create a unique locale for his players to explore. Can you play it "right out of the box"? Yes, but there's so much more you can do with it, it be a shame not to flesh it out more.<BR/><BR/>It also just oozes the pulp fantasy inspirations that started this whole game. Seprent men, steaming jungles, and the ruins of an ancient civilization. It doesn't get much more pulp than that. I don't remember there being a ruby the size of a fist guarded by a giant snake and/or the undead in the actual text of the module, but you can be damn sure that there's one in the fleshed-out version that I run.<BR/><BR/>Great blog, James. I look forward to future entries now that I'm caught up.Michael Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13217338828086458862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33969213701726827472008-08-21T12:56:00.000-04:002008-08-21T12:56:00.000-04:00creating a plot/story is the easiest part of being...<I>creating a plot/story is the easiest part of being a RPG referee, not the hardest</I><BR/>...and it is the funnest part. I love letting something like the reaction roll or morale check make me try to dream up what might happen next. Do the lizardmen who have a favourable reaction roll become allies? Does the big bad guy that fails his morale check escape to seek vengeance at a later date? Thinking on your feet and using your imagination are the fun stuff.<BR/><BR/><I>This is why, though I love the folks at Paizo dearly, I've never been a fan of the whole "adventure path" concept that they've developed into a high art. I'd love to see them produce more location-based modules myself...</I><BR/>...I have been thinking about whether the “adventure path” and location-based module design are exclusive of one another. Obviously not, as the GD-series showed. Based on the popularity of Paizo’s products, I think that an old school-style adventure path could be an excellent means of showing the wider RPG audience the benefits of the old school gaming style and hopefully increase the size of the market for such products. However, I am not too sure what shape such a product would take as I don’t think a new GD-like super module would be well received by the market when compared to the Paizo stuff.<BR/>- PdiddyP_Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12374589162025099763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29368251403770774632008-08-21T12:53:00.000-04:002008-08-21T12:53:00.000-04:00This is why I enjoy reading your blog. You have be...This is why I enjoy reading your blog. You have been able to articulate things that have been lurking in the back of my mind for some little time now and have really made me think about them.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!Doctor Apocalypsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06002801879387232554noreply@blogger.com