tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post3119292760617873629..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: The Paladins of DwimmermountJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35603364872287335682009-11-28T10:28:07.450-05:002009-11-28T10:28:07.450-05:00The Assassin connection was deliberate.The Assassin connection was deliberate.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3074891182838090762009-11-27T23:25:03.538-05:002009-11-27T23:25:03.538-05:00'No one knows where paladins come from, althou...'No one knows where paladins come from, although rumors persist of a hidden fortress called simply "The Palace," from which they are sent out into the world.'<br /><br />I'm vaguely reminded of the Hashshashin and Alamut.Eric the Half-a-Beehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18150352086337447295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38388423101686016122009-11-26T22:41:28.988-05:002009-11-26T22:41:28.988-05:00Well, my feeling at the moment is that the sub-cla...<i>Well, my feeling at the moment is that the sub-classes ought to be limited in some fashion. I don't see any of them as sufficiently archetypal -- quite the opposite in the case of several -- to justify putting them on the same footing as the three LBB classes.<br /><br />I realize this will probably be a contentious position and one that (obviously) AD&D fans would take exception to, but I think it's defensible, even if it's by no means definitive (not that I intend it to be anyway)</i>.<br /><br />I think if you expect to only ever see paladins through this particular organisational lens in your campaign it is fine, but the paladin is a broad enough archetype to possibly turn up in much the same guise in other locales, I think, at which point you may end up with too many subclasses, if you see what I mean. In the case of rangers, that is obviously more the case, given the source material.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77677335518310916702009-11-26T19:01:34.682-05:002009-11-26T19:01:34.682-05:00I think the lesson I have to take from the 3E expe...<i>I think the lesson I have to take from the 3E experience is that this intention gets wiped out by the interests from the publishing side of things. More money is to be made from publishing generic, campaign-detached stuff, upping player power indefinitely, and giving aid & comfort to player refusals to play along with a given campaign milieu.</i><br /><br>I am fortunate not to be doing this from a publishing perspective. I actually still think the original 3e conception of prestige classes is a terrific one and I think 3e would have become a lot less noticeably "broken" if it had avoided making prestige classes such a core concept of the game that most supplements were built around them.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1820575002477479262009-11-26T18:57:07.641-05:002009-11-26T18:57:07.641-05:00So where does this leave the AD&D bard, other ...<i>So where does this leave the AD&D bard, other than stuck in an appendix?</i><br /><br>It's not something I've thought much about, since I'm not playing <i>AD&D</i>. That said, if I were going to add bards, they'd clearly be tied to an organization. That's already implicit in the way the class is structured anyway, with its tiered "colleges."James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85713328529546355872009-11-26T18:54:58.064-05:002009-11-26T18:54:58.064-05:00But: I worry that there's a large overlap with...<i>But: I worry that there's a large overlap with your rangers: their MOs seem very similar - wandering in ones and twos, opposing some very specific enemies, defending a largely abstract notion. I'm tempted to think of Paladins and Rangers as different interpretations of the "warrior with a cause," which I'm afraid opens the door for the anti-paladin and potentially any number of other variants (the Samurai or Ronin, the Wuxia, the albino cursed sorceror...). I'm guessing "ones and twos" means "master and apprentice:" I can also imagine them working in cells of 3-5, or ribats + messengers. I also don't really understand why rangers don't work in "crews" or small "hunting packs."</i><br /><br>All fair points and ones I'm wrestling with even now. At the moment, the big difference conceptually is that paladins are "born, not made," whereas becoming a ranger is something one can aspire to. Plus, rangers are a fair bit more morally "flexible" than paladins, as, unlike paladins, they're simply defenders of Law (i.e. civilization). Many rangers are indeed also devoted to abstract goodness but many are not.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42849177346495910542009-11-26T18:51:15.301-05:002009-11-26T18:51:15.301-05:00By this do you mean the formerly wayward become pa...<i>By this do you mean the formerly wayward become paladins? Or simply adopt the lawful/good alignment?</i><br /><br>The latter, as paladins are born, not made.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75587277735144130072009-11-26T18:50:24.884-05:002009-11-26T18:50:24.884-05:00I understand why Gygax created Paladins the way th...<i>I understand why Gygax created Paladins the way they are, but I was always found the class was conceived by him as sort of creatively limited as every religion has their own "holy warrior" to fight for the causes of their deity.</i><br /><br>Every religion already has a "holy warrior" class for their use as it is; they're called clerics.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9251276095867477872009-11-26T18:49:07.297-05:002009-11-26T18:49:07.297-05:00It is potentially limiting to reduce an entire cla...<i>It is potentially limiting to reduce an entire class to a single organisation, in my opinion. Whether that is or is not the intent remains to be seen, an additional adjective might clarify the case, and my preference would be for paladin characters to not be limited to being "paladins of Dwimmermount".</i><br /><br>Well, my feeling at the moment is that the sub-classes <i>ought</i> to be limited in some fashion. I don't see any of them as sufficiently archetypal -- quite the opposite in the case of several -- to justify putting them on the same footing as the three LBB classes. <br /><br />I realize this will probably be a contentious position and one that (obviously) <i>AD&D</i> fans would take exception to, but I think it's defensible, even if it's by no means definitive (not that I intend it to be anyway).James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1584321278863750152009-11-25T11:26:41.271-05:002009-11-25T11:26:41.271-05:00@Brian
I have. More in solo games, but even in l...@Brian<br /><br />I have. More in solo games, but even in large group games. It's been a bit of a bother with groups that are primarily CN in alignment, but most of the time it makes for some good role playing. Mind you, with relatively mature role players... <br /><br />The best experience with that was then the party thief and I spent the entire time trying to convert each other to our own point of view!David The Archmagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649391406526258069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82335657387960500312009-11-25T11:22:00.090-05:002009-11-25T11:22:00.090-05:00considering the overwhelming appreciation for the ...considering the overwhelming appreciation for the paladin as described here (which I share) it makes me wonder, has anyone actually played the Sir-Colgate-on-a-white-charger-type paladin that we assume is the standard? or is that just for NPC cut-outs?<br /><br />one of my PCs might have come close except that he found an elven cloak at about second level and became more of a diplomat than a warrior. of course I don't know if seeking out the strongest opponent for one-on-one combat would have maintained my interest, even if he had survived that way of life.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47341266890168884582009-11-25T11:14:21.273-05:002009-11-25T11:14:21.273-05:00>my favorite classes, yet so hard to fit in wit...>my favorite classes, yet so hard to fit in with a group of adventurers when portrayed as "holy warriors." I very much like the idea of paladins being like the dunadan or jedi, defenders of civilization and law<<br /><br />Spaceships and light sabers aside,, the Jedi are no any different then any other Holy Warrior as they all follow the tenets of their deity. fight for it's causes, and even call upon their god when they have a need to use magic. <br /><br />A Paladin of Set might be polar opposite of a Paladin of Jupiter, but the basic principles and viewpoints would be very much the same...So would a Sith Lord.<br /><br />.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />.crowkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03066821931343968827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55180171688598472662009-11-25T11:03:14.062-05:002009-11-25T11:03:14.062-05:00Wonderful interpretation, thank you.
I think the...Wonderful interpretation, thank you. <br /><br />I think the Paladin tends to be resisted because it is seen as the only class that comes with an ethical system attached... which just goes to show that the ethical implications of the thief are unmarked. I love the fact that your Termaxian MUs are explicitly Thelemic, which makes this stance into a specific thing the players can recognise, rather than just falling into it unawares.<br /><br />But: I worry that there's a large overlap with your rangers: their MOs seem very similar - wandering in ones and twos, opposing some very specific enemies, defending a largely abstract notion. I'm tempted to think of Paladins and Rangers as different interpretations of the "warrior with a cause," which I'm afraid opens the door for the anti-paladin and potentially any number of other variants (the Samurai or Ronin, the Wuxia, the albino cursed sorceror...). I'm guessing "ones and twos" means "master and apprentice:" I can also imagine them working in cells of 3-5, or ribats + messengers. I also don't really understand why rangers don't work in "crews" or small "hunting packs."<br /><br />I do love the idea of a secret society of paladins, though: maybe they're Dunedain, or maybe they're <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_in_the_vineyard" rel="nofollow">Dogs in the Vineyard.</a><br /><br />veriword: regra. Portuguese for "rule."richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33020749134753857992009-11-25T09:17:08.230-05:002009-11-25T09:17:08.230-05:00Very nice job fitting paladins into your world.
...Very nice job fitting paladins into your world. <br /><br />As a player, I was never interested in playing one BITD; I think the closest I ever came was a CG half-orc fighter/cleric who always told everyone he was a paladin. The alignment thing was usually the deal-breaker; I don't remember ever playing in an AD&D party where everyone was G, and neutrals, especially CN, seemed to be dominant. We always assumed a paladin wouldn't adventure with evil or chaotic characters (which probably goes beyond what the books actually say, come to think of it).<br /><br />Paladins always carried a lot of Christian baggage as read in the groups I played with too, & that doesn't gel so well with D&D. Even so, I never liked the idea of anti-paladins and especially don't like the 4th ed. notion that anyone can be a paladin, regardless of alignment. There already is a holy warrior class and it is called Cleric.<br /><br />Reintroducing paladins as servants of Law/Goodness rather than a god/gods makes a ton of sense to me and should I ever run a game I'll steal your concept.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2875620267439533102009-11-25T08:37:54.573-05:002009-11-25T08:37:54.573-05:00Years ago, I played a female paladin named Kara in...Years ago, I played a female paladin named Kara in a friend's campaign. She wore light armor (maile for situations where they knew there would be a lot of fighting rather than skulking), used a longbow whenever possible, and was quite the skulker and survivalist. The rest of the party assumed she was a ranger and that the hit points they got back when she healed them were just from some especially potent poultices. It wasn't until the first time she turned undead (on pretty much the first occassion that we encountered them) that they started to clue in.<br /><br />I told one of my newer players about her, inspiring the player to do the same thing. <br /><br />Gotta love the mysterious, shadowy exemplars of Law over the ones in shiny armor. They're just more fun to play.Michael Bugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12196330988164511595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80932167428863612852009-11-25T07:51:45.307-05:002009-11-25T07:51:45.307-05:00I really like your take on paladins! They're ...I really like your take on paladins! They're one of my favorite classes, yet so hard to fit in with a group of adventurers when portrayed as "holy warriors." I very much like the idea of paladins being like the dunadan or jedi, defenders of civilization and law.David The Archmagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649391406526258069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8605991278721970862009-11-25T07:49:49.564-05:002009-11-25T07:49:49.564-05:00Instead, they seek them out and often join their a...<i>Instead, they seek them out and often join their adventuring parties, hoping to use their unique abilities and charisma to sway the wayward to their cause.</i><br /><br />By this do you mean the formerly wayward become paladins? Or simply adopt the lawful/good alignment?Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86721126665093903612009-11-25T01:39:59.458-05:002009-11-25T01:39:59.458-05:00understand why Gygax created Paladins the way they...understand why Gygax created Paladins the way they are, but I was always found the class was sort of creatively limited and biased from the ruels he created for them simply because every religion has their own specialized class of "holy warriors" created to fight for the causes of their deity. Personally, it never effected my own games cause I allow anyone to play paladins of any religion, but I sure did have plenty of arguments over it countless times in the past with other gamers.crowkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03066821931343968827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10625272485067813062009-11-25T01:35:29.071-05:002009-11-25T01:35:29.071-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.crowkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03066821931343968827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80405770583424471042009-11-24T23:07:45.979-05:002009-11-24T23:07:45.979-05:00I never thought D&D was supposed to be a pulp ...I never thought D&D was supposed to be a pulp simulation.<br /><br />One of the things that makes the game so great is that it's neither Conan nor LOTR.<br /><br />It's actually gravitated to a Lagrange point somewhere between the two, which is a huge part of its lasting appeal. <br /><br />It's for this reason that I think classes like the Paladin, the Ranger and the Illusionist very much fit with the game, because it's not a sword and sorcery game.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05334071256551332865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19618093139345304302009-11-24T23:02:22.619-05:002009-11-24T23:02:22.619-05:00clovis, I honestly don't mean to quibble, but ...clovis, I honestly don't mean to quibble, but as a crusades "buff," I feel I have to say that the quote you mention is usually attributed to a papal legate during the Albigensian Crusade in France. The Third Crusade never laid siege to Jerusalem. Sorry for being picky, but I think the quote was quite apt. Thanks.LCMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000605927262574842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16396022713513690892009-11-24T22:33:09.687-05:002009-11-24T22:33:09.687-05:00rumors persist of a hidden fortress called simply ...<i>rumors persist of a hidden fortress called simply "The Palace," from which they are sent out into the world</i><br /><br />Like a factory.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91037407502525508612009-11-24T22:30:49.264-05:002009-11-24T22:30:49.264-05:00Oops, quite the typo! James, not janes. Sorry, lol...Oops, quite the typo! James, not janes. Sorry, lol.Veilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629417071588107833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24844807920539718242009-11-24T22:29:33.674-05:002009-11-24T22:29:33.674-05:00janes, didn't you once say you were using Love...janes, didn't you once say you were using Lovecraftian type deities (old legends for flavor)? if so; than your "Law" Paladins make lots of sense since those LC baddies are like pure evil and chaos. usually when used those baddies pre-date a campaigns' realm, I notice.<br /><br />I've dropped my Basic D&D game (lack of interest of it by players), so am doing a Pathfinder one. My paladins will just be a knight order which dates back to a Grand Republic (i.e. Rome), and continue in its successor states.<br /><br />Actually I should thank you. You've given some good ideas for me to use with your observation on fallen empires and their successor states, Dwimmermount, and your views on Autumn; which is my theme. thanks man!Veilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629417071588107833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-901527404821277212009-11-24T21:59:56.542-05:002009-11-24T21:59:56.542-05:00That's a neat, fresh spin on paladins and I re...That's a neat, fresh spin on paladins and I really like it. It almost turns the paladin archetype form a Knight Templar to a Freemason/Solomon Kane type.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17116795932377593506noreply@blogger.com