tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post3304149284472282177..comments2024-03-19T07:52:04.764-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: No Such Thing as Too ManyJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12958185374651441802010-03-24T18:04:46.466-04:002010-03-24T18:04:46.466-04:00James: You're a godsend, as usual.
Pond: This...James: You're a godsend, as usual.<br /><br />Pond: This is EXACTLY the thesis I've held since I first came to Grognardia.<br /><br />I am a little concerned about having so many attempts to do the same thing, that is to say clone B/X and 1e. Come to think of it aside Mutant Future I haven't really seen any retro-clones that aren't D&D. I think there might be a MSH one but that could be my memory playing tricks on me. I'd love to get a retroclone of Chill, or Star Frontiers, or Traveller.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31989442094725284122010-03-24T16:33:27.012-04:002010-03-24T16:33:27.012-04:00> I was always under the impression that OLD SC...> I was always under the impression that OLD SCHOOL is a certain kind of way to play the game.<br /><br />Per http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_63/3019000/3019374/1/print/3019374.pdf , y'mean (although the comments on http://www.gnomestew.com/reviews/review-of-the-a-quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming for one are an interesting counter-read in that context).<br />Well IMHO agreed in general about being more a broadbrush "way to play" than fussing overly about "is it a retro clone, but must be 'roughly compatible' with any others (or the 'originals'?)".irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74117622572309324082010-03-24T07:34:30.891-04:002010-03-24T07:34:30.891-04:00And here we go again.
Can some other posters, or m...And here we go again.<br />Can some other posters, or maybe even James himself chime in and clarify if OLD SCHOOL is a philosophy on HOW TO PLAY the game or about WHAT GAME TO PLAY?<br /><br />I was always under the impression that OLD SCHOOL is a certain kind of way to play the game.<br /><br />Lets take Keep on the Borderlands and Tomb of Horrors for example.<br /><br />I can use both modules without change or only minimal changes for the TSR products and most clones.<br />With some small changes I can also use Hackmaster (as far as I know they have some version of the modules for their system anyway) and C&C.<br /><br />With some more changes I am able to use D&D 3rd and the D20 based clones.<br /><br />With a lot of change I can even use 4th edition.<br /><br />Or, If I want to, I can run these modules with Barbarians of Lemuria or Burning Wheel or Tunnels & Trolls or Chaosiums Basic Fantasy Roleplaying (and related systems like Runequest, CoC, Stormbringer etc.).KristianHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00232005660954059260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77028081907663988112010-03-23T22:09:14.501-04:002010-03-23T22:09:14.501-04:00"It's getting harder and harder to get so..."It's getting harder and harder to get some of the original rule books. So why not have OSRIC, LL, or S&W be able to fill that gap?<br /><br />Or Games like C&C, Hackmaster, or the new DCC to use a ruleset that is SIMILAR to the 'old school' type of ruleset?"<br /><br />Maybe because these are two fundamentally different types of games (classic D&D clones and brand new games that often resemble classic D&D only superficially)?<br /><br />Maybe one of these types of games is a whole lot more relevant to maintaining any kind of meaningful OSR movement than the other?<br /><br />Maybe brand new RPG games (even if they're in the fantasy genre and even if they try to cash-in on classic D&D with some of their advertising or artwork), already have plenty of their own homes online at places like RPG.Net and other blog networks?Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24419475209898863602010-03-23T21:46:16.464-04:002010-03-23T21:46:16.464-04:00I don't think so.
It does sound like you'...I don't think so.<br /><br />It does sound like you're arguing over what is the "one TRUE game".<br /><br />Burn the heretics! BURN THEM ALL!!!!<br /><br />Seriously...<br /><br />It's getting harder and harder to get some of the original rule books. So why not have OSRIC, LL, or S&W be able to fill that gap?<br /><br />Or Games like C&C, Hackmaster, or the new DCC to use a ruleset that is SIMILAR to the "old school" type of ruleset?<br /><br />IS that so bad?blackstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205963961656803303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20657068037007644262010-03-23T21:25:15.673-04:002010-03-23T21:25:15.673-04:00I posted it in the other thread, but I'll re-i...I posted it in the other thread, but I'll re-iterate here.<br /><br />In response to calling games like HackMaster and Castles & Crusades fundamentally different (and not or less) important to the OSR movement, I was accused of wanting to "argue over the 'one true box'?"<br /><br />And I say: What's to argue? I was under the impression that all of the various D&D versions released prior to Gygax's ouster from TSR collectively constituted the "one true game" and that the OSR movement was about primarily popularizing and promoting their continued use.<br /><br />If that's not so, and anyone has the right to represent their own, brand new games as "old school D&D" with no dissent from that viewpoint tolerated? Well, that's a problem. It's called a completely incoherent movement without the necessary foundation of a single guiding principal or goal.<br /><br />Would you try to steer the culture of, say, the Robert E. Howard Foundation toward recognition of every Conan pastiche novel and comic book under the sun, past and present, as equivalent in status to REH's original stories, to the point of wanting to wage rhetorical war on the community's "snobs" who objected? I sure hope not. Because if that endeavor succeeds, <b>there effectively is no Robert E. Howard Foundation anymore.</b><br /><br />It's not rocket science.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43199258529012645582010-03-23T18:49:59.269-04:002010-03-23T18:49:59.269-04:00I believe that the OS market needs to be much larg...I believe that the OS market needs to be much larger in terms of sales to support this many clones.<br /><br />Each clone that fails will look like a good reason not to support the others, so it's not just a simple question of the more the merrier and Darwin will pick the best one. I remember what happened to the comics market when Marvel flooded it with titles. The whole market collapsed.<br /><br />But, I guess it's not my problem. I'd LIKE to see a stable market place where people could put out high-quality product that I can use and be financially rewarded for their work, but I don't need it by any means. And if the average product sells 40 copies because of market fragmentation and cannibalisation, that's just as well for me.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60550104500036375532010-03-23T17:38:31.397-04:002010-03-23T17:38:31.397-04:00The too many games issue is moot then the Open Gam...The too many games issue is moot then the Open Game License give the freedom to everyone to create new retro-clones as they see fit with nobody but the market telling them no.<br /><br />With that being said in the long term the retro-clones will shake out in tier of popularity. The more popular will be those in distribution and take advantage of the wider market. So while there may a dozen retro-clone there will be only a few visible ones.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29988279416049023412010-03-23T17:14:53.804-04:002010-03-23T17:14:53.804-04:00There is a problem with too many games that attemp...There is a problem with too many games that attempt to remain "compatible". It means that most of these games will be sticking to similar core mechanics, limited somewhat the differences between them. I think having more games is great if there's variety of rules and approaches, but if compatibility is truly the goal, having too many games does become an exercise in redundancy, though I suppose that depends on the degree of compatibility. Are we talking about being able to use the same character stat blocks with little modification or simply the big-picture stuff? The more complete and fine-grained the compatibility the less inherent variation (except in setting, which is, to a degree, relatively rules independent).Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00435243803003028117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51926275807214846852010-03-23T16:33:45.812-04:002010-03-23T16:33:45.812-04:00This is copied from my earlier post about the DCC...This is copied from my earlier post about the DCC ad, and I think it has relevance here:<br /><br /><br /><br /> <i>I'm really surprised at the poo-pooing here about this product which, BTW, most of us no nothing about it.<br /><br />AFAICT, those who did play it at GaryCon (and old-school con BTW) seem to enjoy the game.<br /><br />Holding judgment based upon an ad is pretty stupid.<br /><br />ALL OSR RPGs need to be examined on their own merits and people will make personal choices on what they like.<br /><br />Statements like:<br /><br />File under "Castles & Crusades, Hackmaster, utterly pointless."<br /><br />don't help the OSR movement. IF anything, it detracts from it, and it's based solely on personal opinion and conjecture.<br /><br />What's the worst that could happen? Maybe it's (GASP!)a good game?<br /><br />And if it's bad? So what? It hurts nobody but Goodman Games.<br /><br />There are plenty of OSR-type games out there, so if one doesn't make it...oh well.<br /><br />Let's judge it by it's content not by it "cover", as it were. </i>,<br /><br />In other words "the more the merrier!"blackstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205963961656803303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17921173959869925722010-03-23T16:03:13.204-04:002010-03-23T16:03:13.204-04:00James, you didn't mention BFRP. It's been ...James, you didn't mention BFRP. It's been out since 2006 I believe. Version two is available now and it's beautiful.<br />And it's free. And the Lulu POD copies are at cost and inexpensive.<br /><br />http://www.basicfantasy.org/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2851784178303016412010-03-23T15:36:00.032-04:002010-03-23T15:36:00.032-04:00James M said:
I do as well, especially given that ...James M said:<br /><i>I do as well, especially given that they've already licensed OSRIC translations of DCC modules</i><br /><br />That actually isn't true. Goodman released sort of "generic" 1e compatible conversions, sort of like PPP does, but he won't touch OSRIC as a brand at all. Just a random bit of info. ;-)<br /><br />Anyway, other issues aside, I think it is pretty clear that Goodman wants to capture an audience that values the "idea" of old-school, but that actually wants a version of D20 light. I say all the power to him, and I hope he does well. It was probably the wrong time earlier to do it since there have been so many games like this, but maybe if he can sell it in a different way he'll do better. His main competition is C&C as far as I can tell, and I think it is probably utterly irrelevant in terms of taking "market share" so no need for people to get upset that there are too many games.Dan of Earthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04957424338566461756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19824480141412104082010-03-23T15:04:21.413-04:002010-03-23T15:04:21.413-04:00I can see both sides of the argument. Too many 1e/...I can see both sides of the argument. Too many 1e/Basic clones does make it feel like 3e with its 1001 D20 game systems. Other side of the argument: I understand how one might not want to use an existing clone. If one clone calls cavalier 'knight' instead, or uses proficiency rules, and you don't like that. Than you want a system you relate more too. Which clone is closest to one's own homebrew rules?<br /><br />I think as long as you can run your fav clone game in another's adventures, and use another's monsters book, than it's fine. <br /><br />Maybe the next clone book will be conversion rules between them all.Veilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629417071588107833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77560388605395134562010-03-23T14:49:08.707-04:002010-03-23T14:49:08.707-04:00So long as they're all D&D/variants?
If we...<i>So long as they're all D&D/variants?</i><br /><br>If we ever reach the time when there are multiple competing retro-clones of <i>Gamma World</i> or <i>Traveller</i>, then I might modify my position, but, as it stands, most people who argue about there being too many clones are talking about <i>D&D</i> clones and not any other sort.<br /><br />(That said, there are currently multiple <i>RuneQuest</i>/BRP clones available, but I think everything I said here applies there as well)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47552722932825757262010-03-23T14:46:12.254-04:002010-03-23T14:46:12.254-04:00Most weren't saying there were too many clones...<i>Most weren't saying there were too many clones. They were saying they (personally) didn't NEED another clone.</i><br /><br>Obviously, I have no beef with such persons and my post was directed more toward the notion that there are "too many clones" in absolute terms. I simply don't think that's true.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51392925327597033902010-03-23T14:44:59.671-04:002010-03-23T14:44:59.671-04:00You can flame me all you want for sounding like an...<i>You can flame me all you want for sounding like an rpg hippie, but here are the facts as I see them:<br />I'm a fan of early TSR and Chaosium style gaming. There is more creative output in both of those "Old School" communities in the last two/three years than I remember there being in the last two decades. The more the merrier IMO</i><br /><br>If this position makes you a hippie, then so am I -- and that would be absurd.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25558985784505817392010-03-23T14:43:50.530-04:002010-03-23T14:43:50.530-04:00I wish Goodman Games had picked one of the existin...<i>I wish Goodman Games had picked one of the existing clones and used them, so that we can easily predict what the format and compatibility will be.</i><br /><br>I do as well, especially given that they've already licensed OSRIC translations of DCC modules, but I'm not the least bit surprised they've chosen to create their own system. Whether it's open and how much of it is compatible with the old school clones will determine a lot about its acceptance among grognards.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14969376550941854622010-03-23T14:32:24.380-04:002010-03-23T14:32:24.380-04:00Actually there are a couple problems in marketing ...Actually there are a couple problems in marketing when there gets to be too much of a good thing.<br /><br />1st, there is brand dilution. <br /><br />Its hard to get any sames (or play in the case of an RPG) momentum if there is no clear market leader and alternatives. I don't think this applies here as the total number of old school games is still pretty small compared to the possible player base. In addition we have several clear market leaders in the free (Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord, Swords and Wizardry) and pay only categories (Castles and Crusades and maybe Hackmaster) <br /><br />2, There is a problem called tyranny of choice.<br /><br /> When there are too many choices its to hard to choose just one or two Happily this problem is minor here as well. OSR products are well categorized and somewhat interchangeable.<br /><br />The only real challenge we face is building a player base. In that case, more is always better.5stonegameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10694550968360550229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31472492130214408192010-03-23T14:30:02.917-04:002010-03-23T14:30:02.917-04:00> James is 300% right on this one--the more the...> James is 300% right on this one--the more the merrier.<br /><br />So long as they're all D&D/variants?<br />That's what this blog entry's saying, anyhow, as currently written; and presuming everything that's out of print to be "dead"...?irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43699398331502753952010-03-23T14:27:15.529-04:002010-03-23T14:27:15.529-04:00I like it. More interest in the scene fundamentall...I like it. More interest in the scene fundamentally feels good, even if I don't buy the specific product. Just the fact that that Roslof artwork got commissioned and I got to see it brightened my day.<br /><br />That said, I think the "too many games" critics are coming from a good and honest place with rational points. It's the anti-intellectuals crying "elitist!" that start to make my blood boil.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18578174982067636662010-03-23T13:29:13.324-04:002010-03-23T13:29:13.324-04:00Hot damn to the Compendium clone, says I.Hot damn to the Compendium clone, says I.DMWieghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03682249561077936507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21279169130278330022010-03-23T13:17:28.106-04:002010-03-23T13:17:28.106-04:00Ditto Paladin and Aos. I got everything I need fo...Ditto Paladin and Aos. I got everything I need for my 1st edition gaming, but more power to people who need/want these things. I don't have a copy of Gamma World, so Mutant Future came in handy when I wanted to do a bit of that. Didn't feel the same though, but maybe that is just me.<br /><br />I also don't need a vibrant old school community. It's great for this blogging, and discussion, but few of my current players are there at my table because they prefer an old school experience. They liked the cut of my DM jib, and are playing 1st edition because that is what I am offering.<br /><br />I liked D&D in part because it always seemed fun to be into something "underground." "More the Merrier" is only on my radar when it comes to money, chicks or beer.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89623296376261750832010-03-23T12:53:11.888-04:002010-03-23T12:53:11.888-04:00Yeah, I have no need for another game, but I'v...Yeah, I have no need for another game, but I've got no trouble with it being out there.Aoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00145284080419502886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8782795943297486162010-03-23T12:50:16.225-04:002010-03-23T12:50:16.225-04:00Chevski, I think you are reading too much into tho...Chevski, I think you are reading too much into those comments.<br /><br />Most weren't saying there were too many clones. They were saying they (personally) didn't NEED another clone.<br /><br />Splitting hairs? Probably.<br /><br />Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG looks like it could be a lot of fun.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69649491605650795932010-03-23T12:46:38.018-04:002010-03-23T12:46:38.018-04:00I really enjoy that "gloriously chaotic mess ...I really enjoy that "gloriously chaotic mess of creativity". It reminds me a lot of the pulp rags from the 30's. Each publication had it's own theme, but you are usually treated to wildly different stories left and right - even from a single source. Many of the yarns can so-so, but you'll never know when you'll hit pay-dirt, and its usually well worth it. Economics seem to be a major factor with both.Malcadonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111796978336546944noreply@blogger.com