tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post3328143389031478454..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: "Less than Worthy of Honorable Death"James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41838673997041691332021-01-22T19:08:16.804-05:002021-01-22T19:08:16.804-05:00I always find your blogs interesting. I literally ...I always find your blogs interesting. I literally just thought about this passage in the DMG this week. I have found over the years certain things rpg related in the past will just pop into my mind and I will come to your blog and you actually review that very thing. Excellent work as always.zowee77https://www.blogger.com/profile/05471702772865012597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50917569426688884122021-01-21T23:03:50.296-05:002021-01-21T23:03:50.296-05:00Aha, cunning indeed.Aha, cunning indeed.horroxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09885881612576463470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50858841261108738522021-01-21T15:59:03.061-05:002021-01-21T15:59:03.061-05:00Isn't it possible that was a bluff? Like the f...Isn't it possible that was a bluff? Like the first rule of Fight Club - don't talk about Fight Club, ensuring that word spreads and more people join. Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25165357536882530452021-01-21T12:13:53.463-05:002021-01-21T12:13:53.463-05:00Discouraging potential customers from buying one o...Discouraging potential customers from buying one of your products (copies of the DMG) is also a bit remarkable, from a business standpoint! horroxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09885881612576463470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39663509592045696952021-01-21T09:22:48.971-05:002021-01-21T09:22:48.971-05:00One of the interesting ideas here is that there is...One of the interesting ideas here is that there is the clear distinction between someone who is a GM and someone who is a player. While there are players that never run a game, it's very rare to find GMs who never play. <br /><br />I prefer running games to playing, but at the same time, I find playing in other people's games keeps my GM skills sharper. Not only can I learn things from other people running games, it is helpful to me to stay attached to the perspective of a player. Having that perspective helps me keep in mind what makes the game fun for players. Adam Baulderstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08247875453290704056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30335815047725693972021-01-21T05:30:06.030-05:002021-01-21T05:30:06.030-05:00I must have missed this section of the rules. Wher...I must have missed this section of the rules. Where does it say that?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73022848099591354862021-01-21T02:09:35.004-05:002021-01-21T02:09:35.004-05:00In OD&D the characters were not even allowed t...In OD&D the characters were not even allowed to roll their own hit dice, let alone read anything.John Middletonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995017823921643745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41565764117113988212021-01-21T00:46:44.288-05:002021-01-21T00:46:44.288-05:00I DMed a few games like this, and it certainly doe...I DMed a few games like this, and it certainly does make extra work for the DM - not just in record-keeping but in the levels of description required to give the players an accurate view of what was going on. The main effect on the game was a huge increase in caution from the players: there was much less enthusiasm about jumping into the fray. Ultimately it wasn't something I stuck with - gung ho PCs are part of what makes D&D enjoyable for me - but it was an interesting experiment.Nathan P. Mahneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01184246437497081701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24189642227101516622021-01-20T18:48:53.902-05:002021-01-20T18:48:53.902-05:00Does sounds fun tho! I would be in!Does sounds fun tho! I would be in!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09872338936249305301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38462541479056657662021-01-20T17:13:58.331-05:002021-01-20T17:13:58.331-05:00I see only intentional pomposity for humorous effe...I see only intentional pomposity for humorous effect.<br /><br />Long-time DMs seem to make the best players. That isn't to say that there aren't excellent players who've never cared about the guts of the systems. However, as two separate pop pools, games I've ran with crack DMs-as-players just fly. <br /><br />Wonder is great. Discovery is amazing. The endorphin rush is never duplicated. You never forget your first kiss. But it is fleeting.<br /><br />The endorphin rush of applied mastery is durable, and allows the wonder to shift squarely on to the creative appreciation of the scenario, instead of what will happen if your character does X. I very much enjoy DMing new players, but only as the first part of a progression.EOTBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17514955150414369244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48655454081851281032021-01-20T16:25:04.473-05:002021-01-20T16:25:04.473-05:00Sounds like way too much work for the GM as well!Sounds like way too much work for the GM as well!Monkey Barshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04764015648849553462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45647250774066920992021-01-20T16:05:08.642-05:002021-01-20T16:05:08.642-05:00While I agree that players should not know too muc...While I agree that players should not know too much, keeping information from them can be taken to extremes. I played for a while with someone who seriously believed that players should not know how many hit points they had, how much damage they had taken, or how much damage they had done to monsters. This made for an almost paranoid style of play.John Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12123235797335728124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23887586184257350632021-01-20T15:56:45.170-05:002021-01-20T15:56:45.170-05:00I just want to add that I get a LOT more fun out o...I just want to add that I get a LOT more fun out of a game when I have no idea what I am doing. ESO, WFRP 1e, TMNT, all were better before I got "knowledge"<br />Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09872338936249305301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41351845621602823542021-01-20T15:38:17.223-05:002021-01-20T15:38:17.223-05:00Agreed, DerikB---that's the light that I read ...Agreed, DerikB---that's the light that I read this passage within.<br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66820796465191002462021-01-20T15:32:50.551-05:002021-01-20T15:32:50.551-05:00I've always thought Gygax was pretty clearly p...I've always thought Gygax was pretty clearly playing thus for humour -- the *player,* not the character, is "less than worthy of an honorable death?" That's so far over the top that I can't imagine thinking it was said straight-facedly. <br /><br />The core concept here, though, is nothing especially outré. The notion is really just an early version of keeping "player knowledge" and "character knowledge" separate, though one focused more on keeping the knowledge away from the players rather than trusting them not to use it. Darien Sumnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08586351803319498406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82083530778147629262021-01-20T14:06:38.484-05:002021-01-20T14:06:38.484-05:00In my old 80s group about half the players had no ...In my old 80s group about half the players had no interest in ever DMing and I don't think they ever owned copies of the DMG. Certainly players were never allowed to reference it at the table, or to argue DM rulings and judgment calls based on DMG-only info. Sometimes players would research stuff between sessions (especially how various magic items they had found worked) even though I told them not to, so I reserved the right to switch things around from what was in the books to foil them, which they then complained about, but I told them they'd done it to themselves. IMO the game is better when the players are in the dark about the DM side of the table - it makes it easier to think about things from an in-world perspective rather than focusing on the meta-level of rules and math.<br /><br />That said, even at age 10 we recognized the ridiculousness of literally punishing characters in-game because the players had peeked inside the Forbidden Tome.Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69441726997738609972021-01-20T13:55:28.393-05:002021-01-20T13:55:28.393-05:00I would say the admonishment goes double for playe...I would say the admonishment goes double for players and the Monster Manual. All they should have is the Player's Handbook!<br /><br />I have been playing D&D with my kids now for about 6 years, and we have pretty much stuck to this PHB-only tenet. Works wonderfully!<br /><br />When I was a player, in another DM's world (late 70's), it was quite enthralling that he was essentially running his own heavily-modified OD&D---so that even owning all three AD&D was no great insight to me as a player. Knowing the mechanics, beyond what you need for intelligent play, only lessens the playing experience IMO --- pulling back the curtain kills immersion. Things seem more complex when you don't know all the details. That's why we sometimes miss the naive magic of our childhood. That's also why I also think inventing non-standard magic items and creatures is so strongly encouraged (post-OSR) --- it restores the wonder to the exotic.<br /><br />But man, James, this latest set of posts --- have you got an axe to grind against AD&D? Whew!<br /><br />I am undergoing the opposite transformation. Despite *thinking* I was paying AD&D (i.e. levels above 3rd! more spells!), I have come to realize that I'd always been playing OD&D. <br /><br />Many years older now, (and as a DM) I have started with Sowrds & Wizardry (OD&D) but feel myself strongly drawn to AD&D---slowly moving my game in that direction. While to me it maybe not the most INSTA-FUN for new players, or a casual game-night---and also can certainly be fiddly and difficult for a new DM---I feel it is the most complete version of the game ever produced. It assumes an you are planning to play an extended campaign. B/X was a recanting---a back-tracking away from "advance" because...well...the target audience became *kids*. It feels "marketed". AD&D always felt (and still does) like peeking at what the adults were doing.<br /><br />And yes, I know its debatable history (even as to whether or not Gygax even played it himself), but Huso and others are right: the system WORKS...and it was clearly design with a massive amount of thought and play-testing to be something that addressed/fixed many of the issues of OD&D. Like you, I am constant discovering a new nugget of practical wisdom in the 1e DMG. Strictly speaking, AD&D was not first edition, it was first REVISION...and I think it's an enigmatic masterpiece worthy of the effort to understand. It the high-water mark: the place to turn, when you have no other place to turn.<br /><br />Sorry...I rant! :)squeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975523149573452984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8263509432750022232021-01-20T13:46:11.443-05:002021-01-20T13:46:11.443-05:00Metamorphosis Alpha is a great example of a game t...Metamorphosis Alpha is a great example of a game that involves the fun of not knowing. I won’t explain how it does so, lest I ruin someone’s enjoyment of the game, but if it’s played as intended, there’s a point of major surprising revelation that will stick with players forever. THOMAShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11813124910386890089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70083842928001629092021-01-20T11:58:37.075-05:002021-01-20T11:58:37.075-05:00I actually wish more games had a player's guid...I actually wish more games had a player's guide separate from the referee's guide. For Mork Borg, I made my own by going into the PDF and deleting the inside front cover spread, monster stats, arcane catastrophe table, and the dungeon. My player's don't need that stuff and it's more fun if they're surprised.Monkey Barshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04764015648849553462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18484988200977557042021-01-20T11:43:22.311-05:002021-01-20T11:43:22.311-05:00My copy has not yet arrived, but I am now even mor...My copy has not yet arrived, but I am now even more intrigued by it.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52749272244162923302021-01-20T11:26:41.030-05:002021-01-20T11:26:41.030-05:00There's a section in Jon Peterson's new bo...There's a section in Jon Peterson's new book on the idea in early D&D (And variants) about players not knowing the rules, or rather how some DMs thought the players shouldn't know the rules. DerikBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14053996103436467143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91501699264944704042021-01-20T10:45:33.034-05:002021-01-20T10:45:33.034-05:00As a young player, possession of any material mean...As a young player, possession of any material meant for GMs only was indeed frowned upon. Now, no one cares anymore ;-)<br /><br />As for the passage you quote: it hovers somewhere between mixing in-game rules and out-of-game social contract rules. I've seen some things like that before in early rpg publications, e.g. using some high-level monsters to punish players (not characters). I think it also shows the role of GM vs players was not fully crystalized yet. So perhaps the above is not entirely in jest ;-)Phil Dutréhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607941040736764291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60443665440485965622021-01-20T10:37:21.079-05:002021-01-20T10:37:21.079-05:00I am reminded of the rule in the first edition of ...I am reminded of the rule in the first edition of <i>Feng Shui</i>, which gives monsters and NPCs bonuses against any player that has read the bestiary section of the rulebook and tries to exploit that knowledge in game.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.com