tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post373944051859371957..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Retrospective: Secret of the AncientsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4287805024702684362011-02-22T01:18:51.402-05:002011-02-22T01:18:51.402-05:00Joshua: 'It's more my style to create &quo...Joshua: 'It's more my style to create "hooks" and throw them out there liberally.'<br /><br />Lately I've only run short, targeted adventures where, generally, a sequence of events are going to take place that may be affected by the PCs' actions, but will just barrow ahead if they remain indifferent ("The only thing required for evil to triumph is for named characters to do nothing), but I like Joshua's 'cast your bread upon the waters' approach. Some of my best GMing work (and some memorable scenes for the players) has been done on the fly.<br /><br />I wonder, though, if the model shouldn't be referred to as 'sandbox' but 'fishpond'?Jonathon Dyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16517296096401654858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86291436732503683302011-02-08T07:41:00.917-05:002011-02-08T07:41:00.917-05:00It's not really my style to lovingly create an...It's not really my style to lovingly create an adventure about saving the town from goblins. It's more my style to create "hooks" and throw them out there liberally. In one recent game, after the characters arrived in town and been invited to the palace due to circumstances that had happened up to that point, I threw three or four hooks their way, and they could decide which (if any) they thought were interesting. There was the envoy from the city to the east who warned of an implacable legion of hobgoblin conquerers on the way, the king's wife had news that her home town was threatened by fey, the king's brother wanted them to spy out what was going on in yet another kingdeom, and they had reasons to possibly seek revenge amongst the organized crime element in the city they were in.<br /><br />I didn't really create much except in vague terms around each of those hooks, because I really wasn't sure which would strike their fancy. But I didn't want to just give them <i>one</i> and imply, "hey, this is the adventure over here"--I wanted them to start getting involved in the stuff they wanted to do until they could latch onto the game enough to start actively driving it themselves.<br /><br />I'm also a fan of showing them the consequences of what they <i>don't</i> follow up on. They ignored the hobgoblin legionnaires, for instance, so when they got back to town again several months later, it had been conquered, the king and queen's heads were stuck on the gate, and the king's brother had been installed as a puppet king under the hobgoblins, who had the town locked down under martial law.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57061555053259860302011-02-05T23:27:58.596-05:002011-02-05T23:27:58.596-05:00Generally speaking, I'm going to agree with Jo...Generally speaking, I'm going to agree with Joshua in that I think the term "railroading" is too liberally applied to written modules. And "sandboxes" lauded as a special genre of some implicit merit in and of itself. But I was there. Sandboxes were sparsely written amorphic notes from early DM's, that ended up being published. A la Judges Guild. I think a DM has to roll with the punches, sure, but as Joshua says, you don't get to say "guess what, I'm not interested in saving the town from goblins." Because that's what the DM has labored to create. Now, a clever DM has probably already solicited the players' likes prior to investing a lot of time in writing. And an ongoing group of players ought to know what style they all enjoy. But I don't think it's all as black vs white as is often portrayed on the net.<br /><br />As to SOTA, I love it. It has a huge Andre Norton vibe, to me. When I ran it, I fiddled and embellished a lot, as I am wont to do. But that didn't make it any less a great module in my book. The GM can decide whether the players are believed, and to what extent, as well as the impact on the campaign world.Baron Greystonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16636292202674906870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91971631503037097012011-02-04T12:22:13.158-05:002011-02-04T12:22:13.158-05:00It's a bit of a catch-22. If learning to run ...It's a bit of a catch-22. If learning to run a player-input driven game; whether sandbox or some other style, is hard (and I'd say it probably is) then people will tend to avoid it as a leisure activity, since there are a lot of other alternatives out there.<br /><br />I'm surprised even now at how much just "running the module, more or less as written" is hugely prevalent, even amongst gamers who've been gaming for a long time. In my own group, we've got 4-5 part time GMs. I think I'm the only one who regularly runs games where I have no idea what's going to happen beyond the current session, and usually only a very vague one about the session I'm in the middle of running!<br /><br />By the same token, I think the term railroad has been applied too liberally lately a lot of the time. A written module isn't necessarily a railroad unless the GM runs it that way; curtailing player reactions by fiat to get people to do exactly what was pre-planned and expected.<br /><br />In the game I'm playing in now, which is a Paizo Pathfinder adventure path, I don't feel railroaded. But I do feel like it's my responsibility and expectation as a player to come to the party with the adventure that's written and be willing to engage it, at least, rather than having the ability to decide more widely what I want to do. If I'd said, "y'know, my character doesn't really care about the threat to this town from goblinoids. I think I'll just pack up my stuff and make my way south to Magnimar where things are safer; the Sandpoint folks can solve their own problems" we wouldn't have had a game, for instance.<br /><br />Whereas in the games I run, if the players had decided that, hey, that's cool. I could roll with that without missing a beat.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26515882893881398632011-02-04T11:50:55.340-05:002011-02-04T11:50:55.340-05:00'Sandbox' is being used here with multiple...'Sandbox' is being used here with multiple meanings.<br /><br />Joshua is probably right that the primary drivers of 'the D&D craze' were not related to system.<br /><br />But, most of the genuinely good GMs I knew, of D&D or Champions or whatever, were people who drew up their own settings and had those settings respond to player input, 'sandboxes' or otherwise. Products supporting that kind of GM on the one hand were, as Joshua says, generally less popular sales-wise than spoon-feeding products and epic quests. But on the other hand, if you don't have some way to train a new generation of good GMs, the 'core' of the hobby suffers from that too. The original generation of good GMs learned the hard way, something I think Tim Kask got right in his article in Fight On! #5 (IIRC). Maybe that's too much to ask now, but we ought to be able to teach them the lessons a different way - and railroads, even great ones like Masks of Nyarlathotep, fundamentally don't do that. IMO.Calithenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14783899060873651832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5384295374102560082011-02-03T16:23:03.993-05:002011-02-03T16:23:03.993-05:00Besides the whole railroading thing, my complaint ...Besides the whole railroading thing, my complaint was that Yaskoydray was a supermutant and absurdly out of the range of his ancestors. It was just silly. <br /><br />The Droyne as the ancients could have been fun, and I don't think it would have been that worldshaking; if the Imperials had opened an Ancient base, and found some Droyne in deep sleep who obviously ran the thing, it would have had impact over time, but there would have been a lot of denial, and little real impact. I mean, the British knew the Egyptians and Greeks to have been cultures thousands of years older then them, who invented math and built the Pyramids when the British didn't know agriculture. And yet the British still made Egypt effectively a colony, and took artifacts from each of them; it didn't deeply seem to affect how they treated the modern people.<br /><br />There's plenty of sandbox games out there; D&D of all ages has had a lot of setting-free material, as has GURPS and Hero. Sometimes I don't find it effective; if I were looking for aliens for an science-fiction game, I'd raid GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 1-4, not the more generic GURPS Aliens, which doesn't have its own implied setting--or really has one, but it's hidden.Prosfilaeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08567819936724569257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23391847682784968152011-02-03T16:21:09.739-05:002011-02-03T16:21:09.739-05:00Back in the day when Secret of the Ancients first ...Back in the day when <i>Secret of the Ancients</i> first came out I gobbled it up ravenously! At first I had a hard time understanding how anyone could think it "sucked"... but having not read it in years, I have no remembrance of the railroading side of the adventure. Yes, that would probably trouble me somewhat now, but back then I was young and really had no skill in creatively winging an interstellar sandbox campaign. I liked the Third Imperium setting (and still do) for its example of what the universe would look like with the mechanics the Traveller game offers. (Basically any space-faring RPG is going to be founded on the backbone of whatever style of SF interstellar travel one decides to adopt... Traveller chose "jump" drives.)<br />Ultimately, now as an adult, I think I agree with Robert Fisher's comments above. Even if one chooses to not play <i>SotA</i> as an adventure, it has plenty of uses as a library resource.Duglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04952607750940479779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24027772445130452152011-02-03T15:56:20.679-05:002011-02-03T15:56:20.679-05:00I think part of the problem is that there has—to m...I think part of the problem is that there has—to my knowledge—never been an adequate categorization of modules that has then been applied to their design and marketing.<br /><br />There are things like SOTA, D&D's X1, and that prison planet Traveller adventures, which are best kept in a judge's collection until circumstances allow them to come into play. Rather than designing them with this in mind and marketing them as such, too often such things have a poor "plot" grafted onto them, and they're marketed as just another adventure.<br /><br />Secondly, this kind of thing should be presented as an example of what the secret may be. I think there is <i>huge</i> value to giving people this kind of example rather than <i>only</i> leaving them to figure it out on their own without an example. But it should be presented as emphatically <i>not</i> canon.<br /><br />Indeed, I think just as many rules system have gone out of their way to emphasize that they are only guidelines, settings should go out of their way to emphasize that there is no canon. Just examples.<br /><br />With those two changes in approach, then I think the "but it might have all been a dream" ending probably wouldn't have even been written.<br /><br />For all its faults, I'd miss SOTA if it weren't in my big floppy book.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27767391737745472202011-02-03T13:59:03.099-05:002011-02-03T13:59:03.099-05:00"The real problem with SOTA was that the Big ..."The real problem with SOTA was that the Big Secret just completely sucked. "<br /><br />Yeah. It strikes me as pretty much being along the lines of the worst of Marvel Comics' 'cosmic' storylines. Like the Beyonder in Secret Wars I and II.<br /><br />Iain Banks' novels have some 'ancient, vanished, super-powerful races', but they don't appear, only their long-abandoned artifacts do. (For instance, shell worlds, manufactured planets consisting of a series of concentric spheres, with each layer being artificially lit and heated by fusion-powered mini-stars that travel on the underside of the layer above, where civilizations arise and evolve independently on various levels, at different tech levels, etc) In another novel,<br /><br />Actually meeting the Ancients is like David sleeping with Maddie on Moonlighting (replace with the example of ruined TV show sexual tension of your choice.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8104344150383542202011-02-03T08:04:30.048-05:002011-02-03T08:04:30.048-05:00I am with Joshua on this. Sandboxy stuff requires ...<i>I am with Joshua on this. Sandboxy stuff requires extremely talented GMs -- those that are highly competent storytellers -- to run them properly. In my experience, the attrition of players in the 80s was because most GMs/players are not this talented. Players had bad experiences and either left RPGs entirely or moved to computer RPGs where the experience was more uniform (not as good as a fantastic GM, but better than an awful GM). </i><br /><br />So... you're saying the opposite as James? That the prevalence of sandboxes actually <i>caused</i> the end of the fad and the flight of players all over from RPGs?<br /><br />I don't know that I'd go quite that far, but that's an interesting idea nonetheless...Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22548915744898122882011-02-03T07:16:43.514-05:002011-02-03T07:16:43.514-05:00I will admit to using the whole Yaskodray plot lin...I will admit to using the whole Yaskodray plot line to develop a darker Illuminated Traveller campaign. A cabal of Droyne are working tirelessly to bring Yaskodray back to this universe to usher in a new age of Droyne supremacy. Meanwhile, various human factions plot to use revealed Ancient technologies and psionics to control known space. Sort of a Call of Cthulthu/Illuminati variant on the traditional Traveller setting.<br /><br />Due to player problems the game didn't last long, but everyone enjoyed the concept.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24792333463950143412011-02-02T23:53:24.875-05:002011-02-02T23:53:24.875-05:00The real problem with SOTA was that the Big Secret...The real problem with SOTA was that the Big Secret just completely sucked. Yaskoydray (the Prime Ancient) was not just god-like, he pretty much WAS A GOD. He knew everything, could do anything, etc. Granted, Traveller was never terribly "hard science" but Grandfather was so clangingly discordant that he may as well have sent Nazgul to fetch the PCs instead of his super-spaceship. The Ancients were a great part of Traveller lore and should have been left mysterious - as Crossby wisely did with the Earthmasters in Harn. If you're gonna drop an "explain it all" bomb like SOTA you'd better have the storytelling chops of a Fred Pohl. Marc Miller didn't.George From NYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06158111795024631345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26299524063719205662011-02-02T23:04:56.867-05:002011-02-02T23:04:56.867-05:00I have to say, reading your retrospectives is enth...I have to say, reading your retrospectives is enthralling and addictive.Patrick Mallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04906639025904535922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32984682534000837772011-02-02T21:23:23.962-05:002011-02-02T21:23:23.962-05:00For us at the time, the main disappointment in &qu...<i>For us at the time, the main disappointment in "Secret of the Ancients" was the fact that it was an absolute railroad. As a player, you were only there for the ride. As a referee, there was very little room to make the adventure your own.</i><br /><br />This was my basic take on SOTA. When I did run it a few years ago, I spiced it up by including elements of my old Timelords campaign (which had ended prematurely), having the Traveller PC's team up with my Timelord PC's (there were a couple of players who had been in both games) to face of against the Destroyer on behalf of Grandfather.Knightskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08397391662639446678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44385638685251549342011-02-02T21:00:04.613-05:002011-02-02T21:00:04.613-05:00SOTA is the example of how not to write an adventu...SOTA is the example of how not to write an adventure. Complete railroad, no options, and a terrible plot to begin with. It really was the nadir of Traveller and GDW in general.<br /><br />From the canon perspective, we hated it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59811258523966506262011-02-02T19:38:51.159-05:002011-02-02T19:38:51.159-05:00I am with Joshua on this. Sandboxy stuff requires...I am with Joshua on this. Sandboxy stuff requires extremely talented GMs -- those that are highly competent storytellers -- to run them properly. In my experience, the attrition of players in the 80s was because most GMs/players are not this talented. Players had bad experiences and either left RPGs entirely or moved to computer RPGs where the experience was more uniform (not as good as a fantastic GM, but better than an awful GM).Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039652384328042542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75449937740548643962011-02-02T17:32:44.507-05:002011-02-02T17:32:44.507-05:00Is there any evidence to support this theory?
No,...<i>Is there any evidence to support this theory?</i><br /><br />No, and in fact there is some circumstantial evidence that would suggest otherwise; including the similarly timed success of the Dragonlance paradigm, for instance (also terrible modules, but very successful ones financially nonetheless) and the fact that no really successful "sandboxy" setting or adventure has emerged in all the years since.<br /><br />The sandbox is more of a niche market with RPGiana. Although sandboxes were more common during the era in which RPGs (and D&D in particular) had their peak of popularity, I've never seen any seriously considerable suggestion that there's a correllation other than coincidence between that popularity and the prevalence of module design that was more sparse and "sandboxish."<br /><br />The faddish success of D&D and the coattail effect on other RPGs in the early to mid 80s is better explained as driven by other factors entirely, and the population of gamers who remained with the hobby after the faddishness faded have in overwhelming numbers "voted with their wallets" in favor of modules that have more material in them than sparse, sandboxy areas that the GM was meant to fill in all himself.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34963275917540421362011-02-02T17:06:38.017-05:002011-02-02T17:06:38.017-05:00"Secret of the Ancients" was absolutely ..."Secret of the Ancients" was absolutely my most favorite Traveller adventure - by far. It had exactly the kind of stuff I loved about sci-fi stories such as Ringworld and Heechee books - mysterious and ancient progenitor civilizations.<br /><br />Of course, I never ran the adventure as written. I used it more as a sourcebook and took bits and pieces of it and scattered them throughout the campaign.<br /><br />Yeah, thinking back on it, it was probably pretty lousy run verbatim - but I don't know that I ever did anything RAW back then - and I don't think I would have even considered it. Printed material was simply a springboard.<br /><br />- ArkArkheinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04197738947435750745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31801882084603874462011-02-02T16:35:40.570-05:002011-02-02T16:35:40.570-05:00By the time "Secret of the Ancients" cam...By the time "Secret of the Ancients" came out, most Traveller players would have got the idea that although Adventures 1 through 11 had a setting in common (nominally the Third Imperium, although it wasn't established until quite late on), they were not necessarily related to each other.<br /><br />For us at the time, the main disappointment in "Secret of the Ancients" was the fact that it was an absolute railroad. As a player, you were only there for the ride. As a referee, there was very little room to make the adventure your own. Word got out via the various channels, and Adventure 12 flopped.<br /><br />As for the modern equivalent of "Secret of the Ancients", Mongoose are redoing it as a free multi-part download, but I'm not picking it up. So far I have kept myself to the generic MgT books, and I'm doing fine. I don't think I'll ever buy onto the Third Imperium again.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14011319464542156037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42561760484719854812011-02-02T16:04:31.951-05:002011-02-02T16:04:31.951-05:00I can't say with any degree of certainty that,...<em>I can't say with any degree of certainty that, had the game remained as open-ended and sandbox-y as it had been for the first several years of its existence, it might have weathered the mid-80s better in terms of sales, but it's a theory I hold nonetheless.</em><br /><br />Is there any evidence to support this theory? I tend toward something a little simpler: if you put 'Adventure 12' on the cover, folks who don't know better will assume that it follows on Adventures 1-11, and you shitcan any possible impulse sales. The content needn't be self-referential; the cover copy <em>advertises</em> self-reference.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54952651447442581172011-02-02T15:59:46.076-05:002011-02-02T15:59:46.076-05:00The modern equivalent would be Mongoose's vers...The modern equivalent would be Mongoose's version of the game.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72761153348606859122011-02-02T15:35:49.482-05:002011-02-02T15:35:49.482-05:00What's the modern Traveller equivalent, not co...What's the modern Traveller equivalent, not counting the GURPS Traveller of course...or is that it?M Harold Pagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08949772130509527838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25965453604394980002011-02-02T15:27:05.523-05:002011-02-02T15:27:05.523-05:00I never played Traveller, though it was part of th...I never played Traveller, though it was part of the local "gaming universe," and so I knew people who did. I have to admit that, when I finally learned "The Big Secret," my first reaction was an unimpressed "that's it?"<br /><br />Sometimes these big mysteries are best left for the GM to decide themselves, or even leave untouched.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.com