tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post4097252457776712861..comments2024-03-28T06:20:47.668-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Weapon vs ACJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57896629107484446282008-11-20T06:17:00.000-05:002008-11-20T06:17:00.000-05:00Thanks! My blog has my whole pile of mods there. ...Thanks! My blog has my whole pile of mods there. I used 2nd ed AD&D as a foundation, but its closer to BECMI/Moldvay/Cook/RC with 2nd ed classes and spells. And Gold Box AD&D game combat.Captain Rufushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00296697477771399357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72689948438064457802008-11-19T07:25:00.000-05:002008-11-19T07:25:00.000-05:00Captain Rufus I quite like your system, I may expe...Captain Rufus I quite like your system, I may experiment with miniatures in my normally abstract combat systems as a consequence.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46516856504756642352008-11-19T07:18:00.000-05:002008-11-19T07:18:00.000-05:00I'm a bit late to this but anyone who's interested...I'm a bit late to this but anyone who's interested might like to try my re-writing of the Weapon Vs Armour tables (assuming my broadband is actually working when you try to download it!):<BR/><BR/>http://www.tww.cx/downloads/newcombat.pdf<BR/><BR/>The system given there makes no difference to the chance to hit from the actual books, it just trys to lay the info out in better way.<BR/><BR/>I've been using it for a while and it seems to be a good way of getting the armour mods into play while leaving enough "brain time" to also cope with speeds. With both rules in place, fighters do actually have something to think about when they pick their weapons.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61248527214160499902008-11-19T02:19:00.000-05:002008-11-19T02:19:00.000-05:00My ideas for tactical options go a different route...My ideas for tactical options go a different route.<BR/>http://wargamedork.blogspot.com/2008/08/my-ad-2nd-house-rules-part-4-combat.html<BR/>http://wargamedork.blogspot.com/2008/09/my-ad-2nd-house-rules-part-5-combat.html<BR/>http://wargamedork.blogspot.com/2008/09/my-ad-2nd-house-rules-part-6-combat.html<BR/>http://wargamedork.blogspot.com/2008/09/my-ad-2nd-house-rules-part-7-combat.html<BR/><BR/>Of course mine require minis or counters to play out and its more based on using strategy than multiple ways of figuring out which weapon can do what to which armor. <BR/><BR/>(Note I plan on tweaking what I wrote in those things sooner or later. I've come up with some smoother options in a few cases, and a few bits I just think need to be either clearer or edited to be actually correct.)<BR/><BR/>Fighters need to use tactics IMHO, not just having kewl powers.<BR/><BR/>Though I guess if you wanted a quick and dirty weapon effect system you could go Cutting, Bashing, and Penalizing. (Obviously counting things like ranged, polearm, or normal.)<BR/><BR/>(Bonuses are in general, not just against what's reduced.)<BR/>Cutting gets improved damage but reduced to hit against any armored target.<BR/>Bashing has improved chances to hit, but reduced damage.<BR/>Penalizing does less damage and is hard to hit with, but causes lots of saving throw or attribute check type effects. (Stunning blackjacks, blocking attacks with a Sai or Main Gauche, tangling with Nets or Bolas.)<BR/><BR/>Sure my idea is just generalizing things (An Axe, Sword, and Spear all hit and hurt differently after all!), but its a quick and dirty way to make different weapon types appealing. Technically an arrow is gonna have little trouble with most armor, but abstractly it could be affected, and its pointy bleedyness shouldn't be any stronger, but its a neat quick way of doing it. <BR/><BR/>Do you have armor or something armor like? Ok, the most popular weapons have a harder time hitting you, but now they all do more damage. However, the mace and warhammer are gonna hit you more often, but in general aren't quite as deadly though it hurts. Penalizing weapons have a harder time causing actual hits and the damage is reduced, but they can SERIOUSLY mess you up.<BR/><BR/>Wow. Imma adding these ideas to my actual house rules topics! I could make some use out of them with a little spit and polish!Captain Rufushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00296697477771399357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53047306334596513262008-11-18T23:30:00.000-05:002008-11-18T23:30:00.000-05:00I want there to be advantages(can use any weapon) ...I want there to be advantages(can use any weapon) and tactical options for fighters like there are for spellcasters.<BR/><BR/>My current thinking (influenced by RoleMaster/HARP) is to make a 3x5 card for each weapon a character has. <BR/><BR/>This card would include a vs AC chart, damage, weight, any other relevant information.<BR/><BR/>I also am inclined to complicate it further with things like morning stars and flails negate shield bonus.<BR/><BR/>Again, I'm not really after realism but rather more tactical options/advantages for fighters compared to spell casters.Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91846114603981671592008-11-18T14:14:00.000-05:002008-11-18T14:14:00.000-05:00Has anyone ever worked out an alternate system whe...Has anyone ever worked out an alternate system where certain weapons give damage bonuses vs. certain armor types? That might be a more workable solution than making it easier "to hit".David Larkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04133630988557116729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89487854490330020222008-11-17T21:21:00.000-05:002008-11-17T21:21:00.000-05:00Ive always considered weapon type vs AC to be the ...Ive always considered weapon type vs AC to be the "ASLing" of the D&D family. While it is more realistic and detailed, does it really provide that much all things considered?<BR/><BR/>I personally have never seen it. I am even dubious on weapon type vs size damage, and that's an easy one to keep track of!<BR/><BR/>Its sort of like Verbal/Somatic/Material for spells. It does increase detail and give a more flavorful and realistic feel, but at the end of the day, its better off ignored in the desire for speed, ease of memorization, and excitement factor.<BR/><BR/>My problems with D20 can be traced to such things. Its foundation is rock solid and ideal. Then they started throwing all this needless malarkey on top of it and making it as integrated as possible into the game as to make removing it a nightmare scenario.<BR/><BR/>(If ASLing doesn't work as a term for what I am saying, howabout the GURPSification of an RPG?)Captain Rufushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00296697477771399357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39514664404323210702008-11-17T18:14:00.000-05:002008-11-17T18:14:00.000-05:00The AC and the to hit chance equate to the same th...The AC and the to hit chance equate to the same thing - how easy is it to cause damage; however they have been split apart here to simplify the syste - one is applied to the die roll and one is a lookup on the chartPete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58998170668473734502008-11-17T18:05:00.000-05:002008-11-17T18:05:00.000-05:00I guess I understand the logic at work, but I do t...I guess I understand the logic at work, but I do think that magical enhancement should affect the AC, not the to-hit chance. Partly, I imagine, because having come into the hobby through Lord of the Rings, I think of magic items as not necessarily being enchanted, but rather made to a standard of quality not truly attainable without bending or outright breaking the mundane laws of physics.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49467726887006816722008-11-17T14:44:00.000-05:002008-11-17T14:44:00.000-05:00Thanks to everyone who helped clarify my misappreh...Thanks to everyone who helped clarify my misapprehensions. This is a case where I was simply mistaken on an important point, namely that the table is intended to be used in conjunction with <I>base</I> AC, not modified. That makes the table work properly and achieve its purpose, one I approve of for many reasons.<BR/><BR/>Once again, thanks for showing a grognard some new tricks. Who'd have thought it possible after all these years? :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45783709303930652182008-11-17T14:05:00.000-05:002008-11-17T14:05:00.000-05:00Joseph is correct, it is the "base armour cla...Joseph is correct, it is the "base armour class". Dexterity and magical modifiers don't affect armour class for the purpose of the "weapon versus armour". This may not have been clear in OD&D, but it is explicitly mentioned in AD&D.<BR/><BR/>It does however, also include the shield, as far as can be determined from the text and table. That is problematic, in my opinion, but it also creates additional diversity.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19024115609787121232008-11-17T12:34:00.000-05:002008-11-17T12:34:00.000-05:00I think armor class was an unfortunate inheritance...I think armor class was an unfortunate inheritance from strategic war games. It works well enough, but it's not a selling-point.Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4991841744264958602008-11-17T11:50:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:50:00.000-05:00The "Combat Computer" wheel published in Dragon #7...The "Combat Computer" wheel published in Dragon #74 made using the W vs. AC tables much more simple, and manageable. <BR/><BR/>Also worth noting is that using the W vs. AC charts---which do encourage fighters to leverage different weapons vs. different foes, as James notes---further reinforce the value and game balance of using weapon proficiencies in your games. If any PC can carry and use any weapon without penalty for non-proficiency, then W vs. AC does become the dinosaur that many folks regard it as.<BR/><BR/>Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76511471525399734872008-11-17T11:36:00.001-05:002008-11-17T11:36:00.001-05:00I like the idea of weapon types performing better ...I like the idea of weapon types performing better or worse depending on the armour of the opponent but have never used it in my campaigns, either recently or back when I used to play AD&D 2e. They just slow down play too much, its another modifier you just don't, in the thick of combat.<BR/><BR/>But, giving it some thought, an idea occurs to me. Why aren't these just incorporated as part of the armour itself?<BR/><BR/>E.g.<BR/><BR/>Chainmail, AC 5 vs piercing weapons, AC 7 vs bludgeoning, AC 3 vs slashing<BR/><BR/>(just an example, not suggested AC values). Thats pretty easy for everyone to work out; just have three armour class values on your character sheet.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16772527173431733972008-11-17T11:36:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:36:00.000-05:001st edition Gamma World uses a pretty strict Weapo...1st edition Gamma World uses a pretty strict Weapon Class vs. Armor Class which works pretty well. I'm guessing that with D&D that system "appeared" to be too crude to account for all the new magic weapons and armor and gradually the game lost the original OD&D interpretation in favor of Weapon Speed Factors (themselves, not very popular with gamers). Apparently, the original intent was lost and misinterpreted over the years, and the 3+4e designers, much like Gamma World humans, are still not quite sure what it's really means.Kellrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18149255116106626419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81240809347429710652008-11-17T11:12:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:12:00.000-05:00I think the OD&D interpretation is really best...I think the OD&D interpretation is really best: armor class describes your armor, not modifiers. When magic armor comes into play, it will be a subtraction from the attacker's to-hit roll rather than from the defender's armor class. This is especially important for my alternate combat matrix.Wayne Rossihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11347401495298367324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65993643529232899232008-11-17T11:03:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:03:00.000-05:00I definitely use that most infamous table regularl...I definitely use that most infamous table regularly. Bear in mind that the "weapon vs. armor class" table in the PBH is intended to be used against the <B><I>base</I></B> armor class of the target.<BR/><BR/>That is, the modifier is obtained against the actual type of armor; that footman's flail gives you a +2 against someone wearing chain mail even if his dex and magical adjustments eventually bring his AC down to 0.<BR/><BR/>That, if I'm reading you right, puts away the issue of the DEX modifier.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01355324231111953098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47910931843494103772008-11-17T10:42:00.000-05:002008-11-17T10:42:00.000-05:00I've tried to incorporate those modifiers, whi...I've tried to incorporate those modifiers, which are essentially from Chainmail, in the past. We ignored them in AD&D, and I still ignore them to this day in OD&D. In my opinion, the whole AC equals the actual armor worn, and the weapon vs. AC tables fall down flat and make no sense in about 95% (in my campaign, anyway) of all encounters. Once one realizes that the PC's are normally fighting monsters with natural/evasive ACs, one realizes that the weapon vs. AC idea is great in a game like Chainmail, but doesn't work as well in D&D. <BR/><BR/>That said, I have allowed it's use in the past when something like a one on one duel is in order, whether it be two PC's settling a dispute, or a PC facing a bad-ass NPC. When it is indeed man vs. man, I think it stands up well (but, as you noted, only when you are using the definitive AC, not some adjusted value).Sham aka Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14329116400656617173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37748594169911761172008-11-17T10:38:00.000-05:002008-11-17T10:38:00.000-05:00I used a modified version of AD&D2e's armo...I used a modified version of AD&D2e's armor vs weapon types in my game. Had each set of armor have a bonus and a penalty to either piercing, slashing or bludgeoning weapons. I would imagine that the attack modifiers based on weapon and armor that I've seen in AD&D1e would just be too slow.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09358099916267465455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42124936581544142292008-11-17T10:35:00.000-05:002008-11-17T10:35:00.000-05:00@Wayne Rossi: That's a handy chart there. Even a s...<B>@Wayne Rossi:</B> That's a handy chart there. Even a simple-minded 3tard like me can make sense of it. ;-)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072272223837426211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68423778729280911802008-11-17T09:23:00.000-05:002008-11-17T09:23:00.000-05:00I have been using an alternate combat matrix in my...I have been using an <A HREF="http://odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=workshop&action=display&thread=1464" REL="nofollow">alternate combat matrix</A> in my games at very little cost in speed. It's very loosely based on the <I>Greyhawk</I> chart, and I've been thinking about tweaking it a bit, but I'm happy with how it has gone thus far. I'd appreciate thoughts on similar attempts at a simplified weapon vs armor matrix.Wayne Rossihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11347401495298367324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79766453085671318782008-11-17T09:15:00.000-05:002008-11-17T09:15:00.000-05:00I always liked the charts, but they are a tad cumb...I always liked the charts, but they are a tad cumbersome. A somewhat workable fix would be to print off "to hit" charts for particular levels of classes (or hit dice of monsters) rather than just particular classes, and instead of mapping level and AC to target numbers, map weapon and AC to target numbers.<BR/><BR/>-Randomnomilieuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03547735700373311164noreply@blogger.com