tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post4468147695669165034..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: That's How I RollJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9092397160397474082011-03-08T10:55:41.840-05:002011-03-08T10:55:41.840-05:00When running 1st edition, I always allowed players...When running 1st edition, I always allowed players to roll 3D6 six times and then arrange as desired. It seemed like a good compromise, since it usually allowed the player to get the class he wanted while still preserving a considerable overall random element. No one ever complained.TheShadowKnowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11073693648569864707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58074980530277185102011-03-07T16:31:20.728-05:002011-03-07T16:31:20.728-05:00These days I tend to go with something more-or-les...These days I tend to go with something more-or-less like 3d6 in order with the option to swap a single pair of scores. Also, I'll give players the option to re-roll “helpless” characters. (To qualify for helpless, the total of the standard modifiers from all six scores has to be less than zero.)<br /><br />If I’m the ref and we’re playing D&D, that means B/X or <i>Labyrinth Lord</i> so ability scores tend to be less important. Besides, at my table, the player tends to be more important than the scores. The helpless rule isn’t really necessary, but I’m OK with it, and some players feel much better having that option.<br /><br />I’m good with the class → ability scores route, but I wouldn’t use the 9d6 kind of thing. I’d go more with 6+2d6 and 12+1d6 for the important scores. Might as well create a real minimum (and possibly maximums for other scores) if you’re going that route.<br /><br />I’m not above just letting players pick their scores either. In my experience, players tend to give themselves <i>lower</i> scores than average when given their freedom. And, as I said, the player tends to be more important than the scores, so a straight-18s PC wouldn’t be a game-breaker.<br /><br />Having played probably as much point-buy as random-roll over the years, I have to say that point-buy systems have their disadvantages too. While I don’t care for too much randomness, I find too little even less fun.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79714984348737834952011-03-07T05:00:26.745-05:002011-03-07T05:00:26.745-05:00...I think the next game I run I'm going to st......I think the next game I run I'm going to start out saying "let's try something that may be unfamiliar here; you are hapless rogues (maybe prisoners on a chain gang, or in a salt mine). If you get out of this hellhole maybe you can train up as some kind of class" and see how the players form attachments without most of the baggage already included, playing whoever they get.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49544135329507101192011-03-07T04:59:57.366-05:002011-03-07T04:59:57.366-05:00there seems to be a philosophical divide here that...there seems to be a philosophical divide here that just happens to manifest in rolling attributes, between people who think you "nobody want to roleplay a loser" and people who think "you have fun playing the hand you're dealt."<br /><br />About the best essay I've read on the fun you can have roleplaying a "loser" is Zak's on <a href="http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2010/03/playing-monopoly-with-squatters.html" rel="nofollow">monopoly with squatters</a>: seen that way, min-maxing is simply beside the point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1884773551889831282011-03-06T18:27:16.541-05:002011-03-06T18:27:16.541-05:00I'm not sure what problem people have with min...I'm not sure what problem people have with min maxing. When it comes to life and death, the characters would be huge min/maxers, I realize they can not do it with stat generation, but people often talk about in regard to picking the best weapon, armor etc as well (or feats / skills in 3.x but thats a whole other blog).Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11656554193044378009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37347719060152190472011-03-06T16:55:21.413-05:002011-03-06T16:55:21.413-05:00I love, love, love that Xylarthen example. It puts...I love, love, love that Xylarthen example. It puts the numbers second and the character first in a way that I don't think has been true of any other example of character creation in the history of D&D.Justin Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02227895898395353754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24907803665429393242011-03-06T16:10:23.855-05:002011-03-06T16:10:23.855-05:003d6 in order is fine for OD&D/Holmes. For AD&...3d6 in order is fine for OD&D/Holmes. For AD&D I tend to have players roll by any of the methods in the DMG, then if they really want to play a particular class, they can arrange scores to suit, or, if they don't meet minimum, arrange to the closest estimate and bump the short scores to meet class requirements.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13589694058092631937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55495512738731426422011-03-06T15:06:28.223-05:002011-03-06T15:06:28.223-05:00I'm more interested in the narrative aspects o...I'm more interested in the narrative aspects of RPGs than the pure gaming aspects so I'd rather people play what is fun and creates a good story than what is dictated by the dice.<br /><br />But really I think it goes back to the fact that I'm one of those people with horrible luck with dice... and one of my early DM/GMs was a complete stickler for the whole roll 3d6 in order thing (the only time he relented was when I rolled four stats, all '3', in a row).<br /><br />This inevitably meant me playing characters I either hated, at best, or "Jerry's Kids", at worst, (a politically incorrect term I remember gamers using back in the day to represent characters who should have been put out of their misery due to horrible stats).<br /><br />I never felt good about cheating so I never fudged the numbers.<br /><br />And then I discovered systems like "Champions" that used a point based character generation system.<br /><br />If my dice had been luckier it wouldn't have been an issue and I would have been happier with D&D as my main RPG outlet longer.Osskorreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14408780872015323307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24037247037592778122011-03-06T13:50:11.760-05:002011-03-06T13:50:11.760-05:00I do 4d6, drop lowest and arrange to suit. And I ...I do 4d6, drop lowest and arrange to suit. And I have been talked into a sort of "showcase showdown" sort of arrangement that allows the player to choose to roll a second set of stats but they then have to accept the results of that. I would love a straight 3d6 system and sometimes we play pickup sessions like that but since they only get one character at a time you have to bend a little.ligehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00652431558688176341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66251706038575388482011-03-06T13:41:28.841-05:002011-03-06T13:41:28.841-05:00Blackstone, "3d6, re-roll 1s and 2s" is ...Blackstone, "3d6, re-roll 1s and 2s" is mathematically identical to "3d4+6". Unless you just like rolling a d6 that keeps coming up 2 over and over . . .<br /><br />Brad, chess does have "game balance" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_handicapStevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05138730966226244399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38225906722060084092011-03-06T13:24:11.851-05:002011-03-06T13:24:11.851-05:00Stats in D&D are overrated, and quite honestly...Stats in D&D are overrated, and quite honestly unimportant. AD&D, different story, almost unfortunately so as it leads to a sense of entitlement to make characters more uniformly powerful for some odd notion of "game balance". Game balance is a bunch of nonsense that can't exist on any meaningful level after a certain point. It's my guess that a lot of people griping about 3D6 for stats would complain that their chess opponent is "too good" for them to beat. Game balance..?Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06596247660364673313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57234021767735006682011-03-06T13:02:31.771-05:002011-03-06T13:02:31.771-05:00Recently I began running a D&D Cyclopedia camp...Recently I began running a D&D Cyclopedia campaign to the letter of the rules; it states that unless characters have all stats below 9, they are not permitted to reroll them. I explained that to my players before the rolling; not one of them has an exceptional ability. Not one of them has complained. You see, it's what you /do/ with a character that matters, not what his initial stats are. There are plenty of tales of the underdog beating his foes by using the environment and cunning and these are often the best ones.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35697042610640229492011-03-06T11:31:02.209-05:002011-03-06T11:31:02.209-05:00The method I used most recently is:
3d6, re-roll ...The method I used most recently is:<br /><br />3d6, re-roll 1s and 2s. Arrange in any order.<br /><br />Minimum score is 9, so at least the PC is average in a few scores.<br /><br />Seems to be OK for now. Players are happy and I'm happy.blackstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205963961656803303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50671185226887747842011-03-06T11:20:02.669-05:002011-03-06T11:20:02.669-05:00I made players role 3d6, but roll 9 times (instead...I made players role 3d6, but roll 9 times (instead of 7) and take the 7 best rolls.<br /><br />If the character ended up being a fairly worthless character, I'd let them reroll the whole lot. <br /><br />Nobody wants to roleplay a loser.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08863118245243138750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49793281806325348282011-03-06T10:25:50.804-05:002011-03-06T10:25:50.804-05:003d6, in order is fine for OD&D, where attribut...3d6, in order is fine for OD&D, where attributes have less significance. In AD&D, where attributes are more important, more generous or flexible methods should be used.Chainsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13795026553408942707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3997794583129374552011-03-06T08:55:52.301-05:002011-03-06T08:55:52.301-05:00I let players roll 3d6 or 4d6 pick three highest a...I let players roll 3d6 or 4d6 pick three highest and arrange it against their abilities. They an roll 3d6 against their each ability if they so choose. It's all about players choice. They more restrictive method, the more OTHER advantages character gets in the game - More background skills (non-weapon proficiencies is a major descriptive tool for the expression of the character in the game). Thus, a retarded thief with a STR 5 will be a LOCAL BOY in the immediate community and everyone will be lookign out for him. To keep up realistically with non-viable characters surving along side Fighetrs with 18/00 STR. If the palyers so desire (and I have seen those that would rather roll now and choose character class later), they can PICK and GET to play whatever class they want. To accomodate this, I let the player roll up the stats by whatever method he or she chooses. If any of the prime requisites are rolled short of the required minimum, I let the player roll percentile dice for thise abilities. Basically I took the 3d6 Bell Curve from Gygax's DMG and translated it into a percentile chart that keeps the same proportion between the probabilities of the high numbers occuring. So, I have percentile die charts for rolling D&D Stats 9-18, 12-18, 15-18 etc, so in the end, the palyer gets a randomly rolled character minimally qualified to be a Bard, a Paladin, or a Monk etc. Of course, if the character becomes elite, he or she gets saddled with diasdvantages. I DO have a goofy paladin in my game and his Warhorse is named Justice. He rolled low stats and had to use the percentile charts a lot. To balance out te character, this Paladin is young and idealistic and he fell foul of the Church Inquisition in his own land. He had to flee just short of him being branded a heretic. Now he is a quixotic knight in a strange land, where the local Church thinks him to be a spy of the Inquisition and he had to undertake suicidal tasks of valor to show his Gioodness and get the local clergy to accept him.<br /><br />Character development is a great part of my campaign and I figured that the best way to get the players engaged in the play is to let them play the types of characters that they have always been interested it. And in good part it worked.Brooser Bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487438364129415650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84577025719835615912011-03-06T02:28:10.713-05:002011-03-06T02:28:10.713-05:00Our standard for important characters (PC and NPC)...Our standard for important characters (PC and NPC) was 4d6, take the best 3, rolled in original D&D order (Str Int Wis Con Dex Cha). No swapsies and no trade-offs, and definitely no re-rolling characters. You had to play what you rolled.<br /><br />We felt this gave sufficient advantage and adequately reflected the survivability of low characteristic characters in the game (as in they didn't make it to 1st level in the first place).<br /><br />That being said, one thing I never really liked was exceptional strength for fighters, although others did extend the scheme (with exceptional intelligence for magic users, exceptional wisdom for clerics, and exceptional dexterity for thieves). However I preferred to treat each additional percentile stage as the next number up. So 18(00) strength was actually a Strength of 24 in my game. As a result, after a while, I played with letting people use all 4 dice for the characteristic most appropriate for their desired class, if they expressed a desire to play a certain class ahead of time. But then they had to be members of that class. Even if they rolled a "4" (although the lowest anyone ever rolled using all 4 dice was a "7" I believe, for a character that acquired a certain infamy as the dumbest magic user on the planet [His father was a guildmaster, you see. You know how it goes. Legacies and all that. <i><grin></i>]<br /><br />Technically I had schemes for increasing characteristics through the application of the appropriate training regime. But nobody ever availed themselves of the offer, as the advantages really weren't there. [This also reflected my experience with <i>RuneQuest</i> as well. No one ever had the time (or money) to indulge in characteristic training, not when it could be more profitably be spent at becoming better at using what characteristics you do have more fully.]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60163957598887724562011-03-06T02:04:10.669-05:002011-03-06T02:04:10.669-05:00I only just discovered recently in the Rules Cyclo...I only just discovered recently in the Rules Cyclopedia the method of 3d6 eight times, drop two lowest and arrange to taste. I had never heard of it before and doesn't appear in either the 1st or 2nd edition dmg of AD&D. The closest is Method 2 from 1st edition where you roll 3d6 12 times and arrange as desired. It is interesting the Cyclopedia method matches the method described by Gary, so then we switched to various systems--roll seven or eight times with 3d6 and keep the six best totals.jbeltmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02264520619277158883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72270883027256093192011-03-06T02:00:00.022-05:002011-03-06T02:00:00.022-05:00@Coldstream:
RPGs seem to have swung completely t...@Coldstream:<br /><br /><i>RPGs seem to have swung completely to the other extreme: spending time crafting the ultimate, unstoppable character based on mathematical formulas.</i><br /><br />That's not new. I played Champions/Hero System in the late 80s and I knew many min/max players back then. Anything with a point buy system (as opposed to rolling) is going to attract players that treat it as an optimization problem. This is really only an issue if the power discrepancy between optimized and unoptimized characters is huge, and there are ways to adjust for that.<br /><br />As for grinding -- rerunning quests for more rewards -- that is a staple of online games, but is not a function of their mathematical formula. It is because they are specifically designed that way so that the game developers do not have to keep making new content all the time. If they really considered this a bug, it is relatively easy to put in a feature that remembers you did the quest and adds some extra dialogue to the townsfolk to discourage repeats.Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039652384328042542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23861031974970626022011-03-06T01:49:02.199-05:002011-03-06T01:49:02.199-05:00It's a noteworthy change and I neither praise ...<i>It's a noteworthy change and I neither praise it nor condemn it, though I must admit that I find the notion of "best 3 of 9D6" more than a little absurd. If you're going to weight the dice so heavily, why not just state upfront that all barbarian characters have 18 Strength and be done with it?</i><br /><br />Minor nitpick: expected value of best of 9 is ~15. This is a pretty standard goal for a major attribute if you go for class first. Witness the elite array in 3.x D&D. Though the variance is large enough that you will disproportionately get 18s, which is also undesirable.<br /><br />But this is symptomatic of my primary complaint with the older RPGs. Gygax was clearly going for a design goal here that remains very popular, and is a mainstay of later RPGs. However, there is this fixation on rolling dice for everything, regardless of whether or not it is the most appropriate way to achieve the goal. The better way to handle a state shaping like this is a point buy system, not rolling. <br /><br />Furthermore, the problem with this "rolling fixation" is that many of these dice rolling mechanics appear to show no understanding of the basic rules of probability. Gygax clearly wanted a particular mean to make a class "viable", but ignored the fact that his solution has such a high variance that it was unbalancing. I love old school RPGs for the adventure flavor and atmosphere, but lord do I hate the rules.Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039652384328042542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60153325919291121492011-03-06T01:25:29.894-05:002011-03-06T01:25:29.894-05:00D&D is often compared to published fantasy fic...D&D is often compared to published fantasy fiction, but I wonder if it would be better compared to fan-fiction.<br /><br />The way that each new level of power is too low and 'fixed' in the next edition or by houserules reminds me a lot of the 'Mary Sue'.<br /><br />Someone recently said on a forum that in old editions of D&D, a single sword blow can kill you. He seemed to consider this self-evidently ridiculous.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50053273751491380732011-03-06T01:20:39.462-05:002011-03-06T01:20:39.462-05:00The way the 3d6 system was set up certainly tries ...The way the 3d6 system was set up certainly tries to steer players into certain classes based on the roll results. I still like the 3d6 system and use it, and frankly like the challenges it provides. If you have your heart set on being a fighter but only get a strength of 6, well, you can still try to be a fighter. Not everyone in an army is Conan the barbarian...some of them might be average joes pressed into the ranks, not all priests are particularly wise, etc...<br /><br />Some of our most memorable role-playing sessions came out of these improper characters, as they had to find clever ways around their "handicap" so to speak.<br /><br />RPGs seem to have swung completely to the other extreme: spending time crafting the ultimate, unstoppable character based on mathematical formulas. D&D Online (a computer game, granted, but a useful example of the thought-process) is horrendously guilty of this, and it takes so much of the fun out of it...I have yet to get a good explanation of the point to reincarnating your character repeatedly to get more Stat Points and spending hours rerunning the same quest to gather items to craft new super weapons in order to....what? Run the same quests over again, just faster? Meh....Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2313987610647226062011-03-06T00:53:56.448-05:002011-03-06T00:53:56.448-05:00@ Delta:
Oh, that's interesting. I think you&...@ Delta:<br /><br />Oh, that's interesting. I think you're right about this being a "proto-system shock" mechanic.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3993897059143045992011-03-06T00:50:16.994-05:002011-03-06T00:50:16.994-05:00Anthony: "Still, according to Men & Magic...Anthony: "Still, according to Men & Magic (LBB, book 1), 9-12 offers no bonus or penalty. So, I stand by my call of 'bunkum.' Nitpicky, I know, but it's a meaningless statement that irks me."<br /><br />You're largely correct, but there is the rather murky point of "survival chances" [Vol-1 p. 11]. For Constitution of 9-12 it says "60% to 90% chance of surviving" -- so I guess 90% for Con 12? (Con 13-14 says "Will withstand adversity"). <br /><br />Best hypothesis is that's meant as a proto-"System Shock/Resurrection Survival" roll. The numbers are within 5-10% of the analogous AD&D numbers. And the OD&D Raise Dead spell does stipulate "Naturally, if the character's <i>Constitution</i> is weak, the spell will not bring him back to life." [Vol-1, p. 33; emphasis underlined in book]Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67401220948504974082011-03-06T00:35:11.771-05:002011-03-06T00:35:11.771-05:00I think there was tension built into this issue fr...I think there was tension built into this issue from the get-go. The OD&D Vol-1 presentation actually lists class/races first (and alignment), and only thereafter introduces the concept of ability scores -- which it says should be performed "prior to the character selection". So cognitively it seems like classes come first, even though the explicit rule is to roll abilities first. <br /><br />(I take a middle-ground approach these days. It seems particularly good for new players to pitch the major class/race options at them first to get their imagination fired up. Then they roll 3d6 in order and swap 2 to taste -- a small, not overwhelming amount of choice.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.com