tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post4832297261006830365..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Early Pictorial History of the DrowJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4206706582645035332010-11-22T10:56:31.967-05:002010-11-22T10:56:31.967-05:00The Drow should be able to have any skin tone, lik...The Drow should be able to have any skin tone, like the humans, it's presumable to think one race only has one skin tone. =x I like the thought of them all having different skin tones. And kinda wish they were real to be honest. > o> And wish to be one of them~ <3Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00589826345244946610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75817019831729383562010-04-18T21:16:00.040-04:002010-04-18T21:16:00.040-04:00OOOOO! I am so late in my comments.
From my unders...OOOOO! I am so late in my comments.<br />From my understanding drow were always a depraved race. With depravity having its fullest meaning and expression. Their skin color was and is a mark upon the race, but was never meant (IMHO) as a racial signifier, (meaning being african or african american) any more than the ugliness of Tolkens orks (perverted and twisted elves) were a signifier of a particular race.<br /><br />I too loved the race upon sight. The idea of the race enthralled me like no other. (No wait, there was the gythyanki)and i found a way to play one as a character. I did not originally like any depiction of them other than "Skillet Pan black" But as of the last few years have softend, choosing to accept it as slight variations in tonal qualities, as opposed to differing skin color.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15136976853588329190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5377578874385470242009-06-23T13:46:36.501-04:002009-06-23T13:46:36.501-04:00The "black" aspect is just a signifier o...<i>The "black" aspect is just a signifier of "evil", much like demons are often described as "black" or evil doers as "black hearted"</i><br><br />Very true, but there's something a little off-putting (only for me, apparently) about it being something obvious and physical, rather than metaphorical. If they were just called "Black Elves" because of their personalities, but were otherwise much like their cousins (for example, like the Dark Elves of Warhammer), then I could deal with that, but for their skin to be black... that just rubs me the wrong way. <br /><br />For the record, I'm happier with orcs (for example) being a variety of unearthly colours than I am for them to be uniformly green, for similar reasons.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84431893274244408532009-06-19T22:22:29.023-04:002009-06-19T22:22:29.023-04:00The Drow do not have negroid skin tones or feature...The Drow do not have negroid skin tones or features, any more than the most albino Caucasians have skin the same white as dove feathers.<br /><br />Matte black is a scary, unnatural color for skin, just as matte white is, or matte blue, or matte green. Magical creatures have unnatural characteristics. That's all it is.Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58875748704515018602009-06-19T18:26:58.840-04:002009-06-19T18:26:58.840-04:00"PS OT: Oh, and Delta, I am loving OED so far..."PS OT: Oh, and Delta, I am loving OED so far. Keep it up...I'm probably going to use it as my system for my first game when I get back in the 'States."<br /><br />Hey thanks, you can fan those flames any time you want! :)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57704940517510821012009-06-19T17:41:38.059-04:002009-06-19T17:41:38.059-04:00Without outright condemning it myself, I do think ...<i>Without outright condemning it myself, I do think that it's open to some criticism. It's challenging.</i><br /><br /><br />Delta,<br /><br />I in no way wish to fan any flames, but I always thought it odd that Keith Parkinson's cover for the "supermodule" GDQ 1-7 depicted the drow as having actual brown skin tone, versus the glossy or dead black (depending on gender) described in the earliest texts.<br /><br />Playing through that series as a (very!) young man, I always envisioned the drow as described and depicted by Gary and the TSR bullpen. Not a slam against Parkinson (R.I.P.), but I never liked GDQ 1-7's cover...the drow looked too much like real people.<br /><br />(Though from a purely adolescent male standpoint, Parkinson's female drow had a bit of vivaciousness to their curves that did not go unappreciated at the time...)<br /><br />PS OT: Oh, and Delta, I am <i>loving</i> OED so far. Keep it up...I'm probably going to use it as my system for my first game when I get back in the 'States.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10566780759389822915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78432488537318676582009-06-19T17:21:44.316-04:002009-06-19T17:21:44.316-04:00Thanks for saving me the research, Grodog...Thanks for saving me the research, Grodog...JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81362686865755183882009-06-19T17:20:23.972-04:002009-06-19T17:20:23.972-04:00"It would be easy, but wrong, to level racism..."It would be easy, but wrong, to level racism charges at the drow being black. For one thing, they are truly black, not brown skinned... And they were never intended to resemble African people; they were elves, with the thin, sharp faces and features of that mythical race."<br /><br />I must admit that the curly-haired drow in the earliest pictures (like the one that James says "doesn't make it clear that the Drow have black skin") very much communicated to me that they had black skin tone.<br /><br />Without outright condemning it myself, I do think that it's open to some criticism. It's challenging.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58691310584934390572009-06-19T17:03:31.360-04:002009-06-19T17:03:31.360-04:00I loved the evilness of Drow until the FR series w...I loved the evilness of Drow until the FR series with Drizzt. I thought the first series was good, but started getting too preachy for me.<br /><br />I know Gary hated the later depictions of the Drow. According to him, they were the nastiest, meanest, low-down dirty creatures of the underground. There was no "nice" bone in their bodies. If you were captured by them, Lord have mercy on your soul!! That's the only way to play them in your game.Deogolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02703358269224914324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17756180542908273922009-06-19T14:19:14.953-04:002009-06-19T14:19:14.953-04:00De nada James. I've found that several of TSR...De nada James. I've found that several of TSR's early modules bear repeat re-readings---each time coming away with some further insight, connection, recognized inspiration, etc. that wasn't there the first (or third, etc.) time I read them. EGG's are the richest in this way, with A1, B1, L1-2, and WG5 also fitting that bill, for me.<br /><br />For folks interested in leveraging the depraved side of Erelhei-Cinlu, it is detailed further in Oerth Journal #14 @ http://www.oerthjournal.com/oj14.html as well as in Dragon Magazines 298 and 300 (both available in .pdf from Paizo @ http://paizo.com/store/paizo/dragon/issues/2002 and 300 in print as well). <br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82144311673639546812009-06-19T14:09:13.052-04:002009-06-19T14:09:13.052-04:00Ouch! It's not always such a bad thing . . .
N...<i>Ouch! It's not always such a bad thing . . .</i><br /><br>No, it's not and I didn't intend it to be taken as a blanket condemnation of finding inspiration in other people's ideas so much as an expression of my distaste for ham-handedly aping something earlier. I think there's a world of difference between writing a <i>D&D</i> adventure inspired by a favorite movie and writing one that goes so far as to include thinly-veiled clones of characters from that movie, right down to their names, appearance, etc.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57291636046289855832009-06-19T14:06:23.430-04:002009-06-19T14:06:23.430-04:00Allan,
Thanks for all the references. Guess it ju...Allan,<br /><br />Thanks for all the references. Guess it just goes to show I need to re-read these modules again every so often, since I missed or otherwise overlooked many of them the last time I read them.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55510757371039948992009-06-19T14:05:19.464-04:002009-06-19T14:05:19.464-04:00While I agree with this, and the passages Matthew ...<i>While I agree with this, and the passages Matthew quoted immediately sprang to mind, sexual is not necessarily the same thing as sexy.</i><br /><br>That's a very good distinction and one that I think is particularly pertinent here.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43577980040165921812009-06-19T14:04:34.739-04:002009-06-19T14:04:34.739-04:00Herb,
The Melnibonéan angle isn't one I'd...Herb,<br /><br />The Melnibonéan angle isn't one I'd considered before, but it makes a lot of sense.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20712849889228393932009-06-19T13:23:38.454-04:002009-06-19T13:23:38.454-04:00Otus' head shot, in the post above this one...Otus' head shot, in the post above this one's, remains my favorite drow illo. But the Willinghmam drawing in the FF is second. Very surprised it wasn't referenced here, as it has a great dynamic quality and is accurate WRT skin color.<br /><br />It would be easy, but wrong, to level racism charges at the drow being black. For one thing, they are truly <b>black</b>, not brown skinned as wrongly shown in very late 1E illustrations (I think it was Parkinson who gave us the Bootylicious Drow). And they were never intended to resemble African people; they were elves, with the thin, sharp faces and features of that mythical race. And, has been pointed out, black has long been a symbol of evil and death, outside any connotations or attachments to rac.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84682928198983838192009-06-19T12:41:47.049-04:002009-06-19T12:41:47.049-04:00I don't recall any intimations of sexual devia...<i>I don't recall any intimations of sexual deviancy in the early modules. Do you recall specifically any instances of it from those modules?</i><br /><br />Sexual deviancy was also a strong impression of the Drowic Vault for me, fed in part by (blue D3 pages):<br /><br />- p 22: [Commander Pellanistra's] apartment is also very expensively and lavishly furnished, and amidst the articles are several lewd statuettes <br /><br />- p 22: [High Priestess Charinida's] lounge [is] decorated with innumerable perverted and lewd paintings, tapestries, statues, etc. Even the carpets are obscene.<br /><br />- p 23: The bed chamber of the High Priestess is as lewdly and evilly decorated as the outer room.<br /><br />- p 23: Behind the secret door is a cell wherein is chained an<br />insane human of great strength (9th level fighter; H.P.: 73;<br />18/81 strength, 11 intelligence, 9 wisdom, 16 dexterity, 18<br />constitution; 17 charisma) kept here by Charinida for whatever purposes please her at the time. There are several whips and torture instruments on one wall, and near them is a gag and a ring of invisibility. Note that the<br />prisoner is bound to the east wall where the secret entrance to room 4) is<br /><br />re: good drow<br /><br />- p 16: Rakes roaming the streets in Erelhei-Cinlu are bands of bitter youths, often outcasts. The band will be composed of eithe Drow, Drow-elves, and half-Drow (human cross) or Drow, half-Drow, and (1-2) half-orcs. The former sort of group is 40% likely, the latter 60%. Drow crosses will have magic resistance equal to their Dark Elven heritage but no spell ability. The bands with elven-Drow members will be hostile to all they perceive as part of the system which prevails in their world, and the Dark Elves with them are of the few who are neither totally degenerate nor wholly evil—they are haters of the society around them and see no good in it.<br /><br />- p 21: In the right hand cage there is a Dark Elf male fighter/magic-user of 4th/4th level (H.P.: 24; no armor; 12 strength, 18 intelligence, 9 wisdom, 18 dexterity, 15 constitution, 13 charisma) placed into captivity yesterday and paralyzed by the spider demoness.<br />He is Nilonim, a dissident Drow captured in Erelhei-Cinlu where he led a band of rebels attempting to<br />overthrow noble rule. He is of neutral alignment with a slight tendency towards good deeds.<br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53599026154102176572009-06-19T12:29:35.332-04:002009-06-19T12:29:35.332-04:00I always thought the seductiveness of the drow was...I always thought the seductiveness of the drow was a natural progression. My elves being sensual and indulgent, it seemed only natural that an offshoot of them that evolved without the virtue of self-restraint would take that up to 11, especially of course the first and second estates of their society.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56783405464081492062009-06-19T12:24:19.608-04:002009-06-19T12:24:19.608-04:00Various comments:
- another good illo of Edralve,...Various comments:<br /><br />- another good illo of Edralve, the drowic slave lord appears in A4 In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords<br /><br />- FWIW, the illo with the "drowic" prisoner never struck me as a drow, much less a female drow: I'd always assumed it was an ogre, troll, or some other creature being dragged along by the PCs<br /><br />- also FWIW: re: the D3 EO illo of the drow priestess with the morning star and smoking staff---I'd always assumed that the smoke was infused with light, given the play of light and shadow suggested by the shading of her breastplate, upper torso, and face<br /><br />- I'll see if I can track down some images for the other drow we've mentioned...<br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4374549873584977242009-06-19T12:09:27.599-04:002009-06-19T12:09:27.599-04:00I agree Herb.
In the B/X game I'm playing in,...I agree Herb.<br /><br />In the B/X game I'm playing in, the Drow underground cities had fallen to Chaos(hence dungeons) a century ago and the remnants of the Drow seek to reassert themselves on the world or retire from it completely in the woods (hence wood elves - very much like Dragon Warriors Elves).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10189356876398160522009-06-19T12:09:20.624-04:002009-06-19T12:09:20.624-04:00"The drow were always portrayed as sexual &am..."The drow were always portrayed as sexual & deviant, evil elves, even from the Giant modules...at least in the prose, if not in the illustrations."<br /><br />While I agree with this, and the passages Matthew quoted immediately sprang to mind, <i>sexual</i> is not necessarily the same thing as <i>sexy</i>. <br /><br />I share James' strong early reaction to the drow. My first, lasting impression is that they're alien and repugnant and not something you'd want to be around. Once EO came up with Lolth in the spriderweb bikini (apparently so as to consort with slavering, murderous demons), we were off to the races thereafter.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42173551440918789392009-06-19T11:46:50.123-04:002009-06-19T11:46:50.123-04:00Isn't it possible Drow were always pseudo-Meln...Isn't it possible Drow were always pseudo-Melnibonians?<br /><br />Think about it, magical non-human race of fragile beauty and, to human views, evil to the core. Is that the Dragon Empire or the rulers of the Underdark.<br /><br />In that case Drizzt makes perfect sense as an Elric wannabe (I've never read Drizzt's books so I don't get the dislike). Elric is the "good" Melnibonian who topples the empire. To be honest, the "whiny" aspect is one of the reasons I haven't like Elric and even Hawkmoon from time to time.<br /><br />Anyway, I doubt viewing Drow as Melnibonian is debasement, but what happened to the Drow is just part of a larger pattern of people (especially teenagers who are slightly outcast) turning the idea of the alien evil race into emo Elves who are inherently superior just misunderstood.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50124623803150982302009-06-19T11:22:24.316-04:002009-06-19T11:22:24.316-04:00James,
People get different impressions from read...James,<br /><br />People get different impressions from reading the same text, of course. For me, the <i>very first</i> impression of the drow was that they were morally deviant. Perhaps the DM of my childhood's GDQ campaign played up that angle enough to make that sort of image stick.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10566780759389822915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24147043546931727592009-06-19T10:53:55.753-04:002009-06-19T10:53:55.753-04:00Matthew,
Thanks for those references, especially ...Matthew,<br /><br />Thanks for those references, especially to the Fane, as I hadn't recalled them. I <i>did</i> remember the description of Erelhei-Cinlu, but, for whatever reason, it never really sank in as evidence of anything more than the fact that the Drow were Evil. I grant that there's obviously more going on there than that; it just never really registered with me at the time and, even now, it doesn't quite jibe with the conception of the Drow I hold, even though it's there from module D3 on at least.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73592617147525073782009-06-19T10:50:55.064-04:002009-06-19T10:50:55.064-04:00And, how could I forget...the description of the o...And, how could I forget...the description of the of the drow city in D3:<br /><br />"...wallow in the sinkhole of absolute depravity which is Erelhei-Cinlu.) The most popular places in the city are the gambling dens, bordellos, taverns, drug saloons, and even less savory shops along the two main streets. The back streets and alleyways too boast of brothels, poison shops, bars, and torture parlors. Unspeakable things transpire where the evil and jaded creatures seek pleasure, pain, excitement, or arcane knowledge, and sometimes these seekers find they are victims. All visitors are warned that they enter the back streets of the city at their peril."<br /><br />I think I read this module sometime in 1982, as a ten year-old, soon after playing through it.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10566780759389822915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24123321608774068332009-06-19T10:45:57.410-04:002009-06-19T10:45:57.410-04:00I don't recall any intimations of sexual devia...<i>I don't recall any intimations of sexual deviancy in the early modules. Do you recall specifically any instances of it from those modules?</i><br /><br />D3, The Great Fane, Level 5, especially rooms 1 and 3.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10566780759389822915noreply@blogger.com