tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post4972575250390491632..comments2024-03-19T05:48:34.142-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: How Did I Miss This?James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53298389132065526932011-06-11T05:06:31.702-04:002011-06-11T05:06:31.702-04:00well spotted :)
I think we used it... but I am no...well spotted :)<br /><br />I think we used it... but I am not 100% sure :(Fabio Milito Pagliarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13043436735116048822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8543384842425888512011-06-10T03:52:26.952-04:002011-06-10T03:52:26.952-04:00We always used it. In fact, the rule was ported to...We always used it. In fact, the rule was ported to AD&D 2e. IIRC there is a mention of the rule also in the 1e DMG. Similar rules appear in the D&D Master set (Str modifies paralysis, Dex mod. dragon breath and wands, Int mod. spells affectin the mind, Con mod. poison but not death).Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17918046398235505132011-06-09T20:14:28.052-04:002011-06-09T20:14:28.052-04:00Sorry, but I need to say: "Really? We always ...Sorry, but I need to say: "Really? We always used that rule."! :)Igor Vinicius Sartoratohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04276560364483845927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75122603045339306092011-06-09T19:40:19.398-04:002011-06-09T19:40:19.398-04:00I am always surprised how many people are unaware ...I am always surprised how many people are unaware of rules like this, but no more than the number who will flat out deny its validity because it does not fit their idea of how AD&D works. I strongly suggest a close reading of the saving throw rules in the DMG, the amount of latitude is considerable.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86314696133924834202011-06-09T18:19:55.509-04:002011-06-09T18:19:55.509-04:00The use of Dex to save against spells is suggested...The use of Dex to save against spells is suggested in Dex decsritpion in OD&D, but never explained (probably a side efefct of Gary's quoting Dave while adding his own rules).Nicolas Dessauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03010015806129652185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18925730954446608762011-06-09T17:37:01.926-04:002011-06-09T17:37:01.926-04:00Maybe the OSRIC team forgot it, but maybe they lef...Maybe the OSRIC team forgot it, but maybe they left it out intentionally, for legal reasons, as they did with a variety of other items.Chainsawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13795026553408942707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13277630542330803772011-06-09T17:26:13.436-04:002011-06-09T17:26:13.436-04:00Coldstream: Understood, grading too much can be a ...Coldstream: Understood, grading too much can be a real mind-bender. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18173003029736040662011-06-09T17:20:14.489-04:002011-06-09T17:20:14.489-04:00Yeah, I remember reading it but I seem to remember...Yeah, I remember reading it but I seem to remember that was contradicted by the DMG (or at least ignored in the DMG). As a DM I treated the DMG as gospel. Damn, I am going to have to look at that rule.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54044224708860929322011-06-09T17:03:36.984-04:002011-06-09T17:03:36.984-04:00@Delta
Yeah, that actually more what I was trying...@Delta<br /><br />Yeah, that actually more what I was trying to get at, but failing, the Saves tied into Stats (Fortitude with CON, Reflex with DEX etc... and feats tied into them) That's what I get for trying to comment while grading papers...incoherent thoughts. Hopefully, I'm grading better.<br /><br />Verification word: dying<br /><br />that's a poor omen...Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49958878391528067452011-06-09T16:49:51.140-04:002011-06-09T16:49:51.140-04:00... and also as originally seen for the monk class...... and also as originally seen for the monk class in Sup-II Blackmoor (p. 2, last paragraph).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24189475582598301912011-06-09T16:48:10.843-04:002011-06-09T16:48:10.843-04:00Coldstream said: "This idea actually has been...Coldstream said: "This idea actually has been carried forward to some extent in later editions of DnD and the online version with the Evasion feat..."<br /><br />Well, I'd say the more direct connection is the Dex-modified Reflex save category.<br /><br />Evasion is the evolution of the AD&D monk ability of the same mechanic (Improved Evasion being the same as the AD&D monk 9th level ability.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86314934151230533022011-06-09T16:27:39.410-04:002011-06-09T16:27:39.410-04:00This idea actually has been carried forward to som...This idea actually has been carried forward to some extent in later editions of DnD and the online version with the Evasion feat: if an attack can be reduced to half-damage with a normal reflex save, then Evasion allows you to reduce it to no-damage with a successful reflex save. <br /><br />So perhaps this small rule is the genesis of that idea.Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57050645303949903652011-06-09T16:05:32.489-04:002011-06-09T16:05:32.489-04:00Hmmm, that suggests that the DEX bonus may be used...Hmmm, that suggests that the DEX bonus may be used against directed magical attacks. I don't remember reading that, or ever applying the idea. <br />I might in future though.E.G.Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10229893317543621720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5180130056697234582011-06-09T16:01:16.400-04:002011-06-09T16:01:16.400-04:00fluerdemal said...
"...I remember pointing it...fluerdemal said...<br />"...I remember pointing it out to my DM who didn't know about it - and it was quite a feeling of pride in my ~16-year old heart to point out something new to guys who had been playing for so many years longer then I had."<br /><br />And a rules lawyer is born. What year was it? Maybe you were the first! :)cibethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16815626047653230637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4278259613857700892011-06-09T15:59:01.429-04:002011-06-09T15:59:01.429-04:00We used it all the time....as a matter of fact, pl...We used it all the time....as a matter of fact, players were always trying to shoehorn that save bonus into saving throws..."Are you SURE I can't use my bonus to "dodge" that Light spell thrown at my eyes????"Badmikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199830751033032585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51326114394635058562011-06-09T15:23:06.942-04:002011-06-09T15:23:06.942-04:00Yep, and wisdom gives a bonus on saves against mos...Yep, and wisdom gives a bonus on saves against most illusions too. Always played both rules, although it's up to the player to "claim" the bonus; no do-overs because you forgot to mention it.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34462995800314928002011-06-09T15:16:32.847-04:002011-06-09T15:16:32.847-04:00"It's worth noting, too, that OSRIC makes...<i>"It's worth noting, too, that OSRIC makes no mention of this aspect of Dexterity, so my guess is that it was never widely used, even among diehard AD&D fans."--James Maliszewski</i><br /><br />Or that the OSRIC team didn't - I'm not sure trying to extrapolate out to the entire population of AD&D players based on two samples (the OSRIC group and your group) really bears out.<br /><br />I think that what is almost a little bit more interesting is the not-so-subtle divide that occurred somewhere in OD&D/AD&D that was either "pro-PC bonuses" or "anti-PC bonuses" as revealed in the response to things like weapon specialization. Some folks certainly viewed this as a threat to the balance of the game and others (like myself) saw it as just another factor and (at least here is my perspective) it was up to <i>the DM</i> to provide "balance" -whatever than means.<br /><br />You want a double-specialized, dual-wielding character with a Girdle of Storm Giant Strength and boots of Striding & Springing? No problem. Because I'm the DM <i>and I can throw anything at you that I can imagine and write the stats up for</i> - I don't have to "break the rules" I don't even have to write new rules, I just get to use the rule that says it's my game and I have the responsibility to make sure that people are having fun.<br /><br />But somewhere along the way that was certainly lost and people started looking at the rules as the enemy of the DM instead of a tool to used by the DM. I'm not sure if this is a result of bad players, bad DMs, or bad product - but it's a real shame.<br /><br />D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23634893933737623872011-06-09T14:52:19.125-04:002011-06-09T14:52:19.125-04:00"I imagine it is overlooked because it is not...<b><i>"I imagine it is overlooked because it is not clear what the player can write down on his char sheet other than a say -3 reminder to the dm to judge whether a spell can be dodged. The dm has to remember it."</i>--Kent</b><br /><br />That's what I figure too.<br /><br /><br /><b><i>"Those who flinch from AD&D and resort to OD&D seem to have panic attacks when they have to make a judgement or devise a ruling in AD&D."</i>--Kent</b><br /><br />Now that's just mean. Kinda what I was thinking too, but still just mean.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53029857054752008322011-06-09T14:44:25.477-04:002011-06-09T14:44:25.477-04:00"What's interesting, though, is that Holm...<b><i>"What's interesting, though, is that Holmes didn't include a Dex adjustment to AC and Moldvay didn't come out till 1981. I had the PHB long before then. So how did I get the idea that Dexterity affected AC and not read this passage?"</i>--James Maliszewski</b><br /><br /><i>'Back in the day'</i>, I read the PHB from cover to cover more times than I can remember -- but I still either didn't notice or didn't remember the parrying rule on page 104. With so much information to absorb and process, I'm just surprised that alot more of it didn't get overlooked or forgotten.<br /><br /><br /><b><i>"It's worth noting, too, that OSRIC makes no mention of this aspect of Dexterity, so my guess is that it was never widely used, even among diehard AD&D fans."</i>--James Maliszewski</b><br /><br />That does sound likely.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57130089094588592682011-06-09T13:58:34.525-04:002011-06-09T13:58:34.525-04:00The rule made its way into our games as well. A ...The rule made its way into our games as well. A particularly dextrous player pointed it out one day, and it made some sense taken in isolation, so we used it. Any direct, physical type attack (lightning bolts, traps, etc...) that required a saving throw it affected.Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48186765158328218992011-06-09T12:27:10.707-04:002011-06-09T12:27:10.707-04:00My friends and I all used that rule. I never cons...My friends and I all used that rule. I never considered it that ambiguous: You just got a bonus to saves versus things that could conceivably be dodged or evaded through fast reflexes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45589544055486356742011-06-09T11:55:24.095-04:002011-06-09T11:55:24.095-04:00Not only used it, but I remember pointing it out t...Not only used it, but I remember pointing it out to my DM who didn't know about it - and it was quite a feeling of pride in my ~16-year old heart to point out something new to guys who had been playing for so many years longer then I had.<br /><br />We never considered it that hard to implement, the examples were pretty clear, especially when read in combination with the information on saving throws elsewhere, things that you <i>dodged</i> (Meteor Swarms, Blade Barrier, Ice Storms, etc) you got the bonus against, things that you didn't (Charm Person, Death Spell, Symbol, etc) you didn't.<br /><br />Again, this would fall under the "Divine Law of DMs" set of rulings and is one of those things that (in my mind) reinforces the DM's power in AD&D.<br /><br />D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76709324823699687832011-06-09T11:34:21.508-04:002011-06-09T11:34:21.508-04:00I certainly remember reading it, some years after ...I certainly remember reading it, some years after we had started playing the game. What I cannot remember is if I ever actually /used/ it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32455248957936354662011-06-09T10:43:39.072-04:002011-06-09T10:43:39.072-04:00We used it.The rules-lawyers in my old AD&D gr...We used it.The rules-lawyers in my old AD&D group went through the front end of the PHB with a fine brush comb.JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7556422458983839012011-06-09T10:34:04.396-04:002011-06-09T10:34:04.396-04:00Wow. We missed that completely.Wow. We missed that completely.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.com