tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post4994844341952356261..comments2024-03-19T04:29:47.922-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Retrospective: Authentic ThaumtaurgyJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10509751033251552822012-03-09T19:42:36.979-05:002012-03-09T19:42:36.979-05:00Hmm, dying grain gods. That sounds like an cool ba...Hmm, dying grain gods. That sounds like an cool basis for a campaign. I need to check out The Golden Bough. I don't mind dry writing one bit.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72260955368769873492012-03-09T19:37:23.577-05:002012-03-09T19:37:23.577-05:00the peacesful coexistence of beliefs in polytheism...<i>the peacesful coexistence of beliefs in polytheism. For example in India, where there are over a thousand deities, and yet people live in peace</i><br /><br />I think you are idealizing Hinduism. Perhaps you should read some of the history. Just for one example, Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh used to all be one country. They did not separate peacefully. For an example avoiding monotheism, look at the history of Sri Lanka. Hinduism also perpetuates a tremendously repressive caste system. For another example, do a web search for "conflict between buddhism and hinduism" and see what you find.<br /><br />This is not meant to bash India in any way. I could find similar examples in most (all?) cultures.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43578174643925792752012-03-06T13:27:28.494-05:002012-03-06T13:27:28.494-05:00we should have a proper discussion of Nephilim som...we should have a proper discussion of Nephilim some time. Interesting stuff, although the whole "consulted with a realio trulio occultist" thing in the intro looked an awful lot like a "ms. found in a coffin" type claim to me - that is, not even a hoax but a literary allusion/bit of genre emulation. <br /><br />Eliade's interesting but Durkheim argues that for analytical purposes there's no sociologically defensible line to be drawn between magic and religion, and I'm afraid I've internalized this idea so thoroughly that I find it hard now to imagine why clerics and MUs should be separate, except for tradition. <br /><br />...and now that's enough flamebaiting for me. I reckon occultism stands in relation to RPGs much as heavy metal does; they're bedfellows, even though there's no very good reason behind it.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63566918104414063942012-03-06T13:17:02.097-05:002012-03-06T13:17:02.097-05:00those academics are all secret satanists anyway.those academics are all secret satanists anyway.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36015786066705588602012-03-03T07:51:53.021-05:002012-03-03T07:51:53.021-05:00Just noticed my copy of Liber Ka. Couldn't fi...Just noticed my copy of <i>Liber Ka</i>. Couldn't find any recommendation. Although I did think there was one somewhere. Oh well.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78669552628438552372012-03-03T07:09:58.064-05:002012-03-03T07:09:58.064-05:00Divination implies a linearity to time and a pre-e...Divination implies a linearity to time and a pre-existing future path, all of which are irrational. It is a fun narrative element, though.<br /><br />I think we are splitting hairs on the causality issue. A magic user produces a fire ball. How is this done? Magic. But how does that work? Magic works like Magic, etc. Magic is almost a pronoun standing in for a process we do not understand.Joe Johnstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08847388615721715893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90386112061370241902012-03-02T20:51:00.241-05:002012-03-02T20:51:00.241-05:00Point of fact: Christianity did not identify any a...Point of fact: Christianity did not identify any and all other non-Christian viewpoints as demonic, just some of them. Other were taken up as not only true, but as propaedeutic and even prophetic of the Christian dispensation.Theodric the Obscurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18201793290118146978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86435589827478570832012-03-02T10:57:11.774-05:002012-03-02T10:57:11.774-05:00And how does that work, this intolerance idea of y...And how does that work, this intolerance idea of yours? Are you saying that pointing out what Christians have done in the past is the equivalent of actually doing those things? That is a vast jump over a very dark chasm. Historians who talk about the persecution and death by horrific execution that the Spanish Inquisition inflicted, for example, according to yourself, are somehow being as intolerant as those whose morals were so loose that they actually did these things to other people. None of which had done anything wrong.<br /><br />I think you might be able to see, just possibly there is a sliver of a chance, that I am not being intolerant. Those things happened and they are facts. If I contrast those with a truly peaceful culture and highlight the difference between them because it is relevent, it is not my fault if it makes you feel uncomfortable.<br /><br />To pass this off as 'bashing Christians' is to lose the thread of the conversation anyway. From Satanism (a Christian concept) to Druidism (a Pagan religion) and the misconceptions of Christians that this is the devil worship happens exactly because they cannot tolerate other religions, so lets get this the right way around. If they really want to live in peace with other religions, and not convert them, they would have to drop the idea that everybody else is a worshipper of devils. What are the odds of that, do you think? Zero.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48804572475386117082012-03-02T08:16:12.897-05:002012-03-02T08:16:12.897-05:00That's the Christian perspective, which sought...<i>That's the Christian perspective, which sought to demonise any view points that it found conflicting, and burn those who followed them, because it's an exercise in social control. "Believe this or die." Now contrast and compare the dogma of monotheism with the peacesful coexistence of beliefs in polytheism. For example in India, where there are over a thousand deities, and yet people live in peace. So much for some kind of ultimate evil being as the source of those religions. They are tolerant of others, respectful, are not invading foreign countries and yet demonised just the same as the peaceful wise men and women of the past and look what happened to them as a consequence. And look at the world today and the state its in without their guidance.</i><br /><br />I know it's the Christian perspective. That was my whole point.<br /><br />That wasn't an invitation to start a Christian bash. Most Christians I have met in my life--many thousands of such--are extremely tolerant, and don't really have much of a problem with the notion that there are people out there who believe something different than they do.<br /><br />Trying to paint all Christians with the Jack Chick brush hardly contributes to your implicit thesis that Christians are dogmatic and intolerant and non-Christians are not.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31626947365275979882012-03-02T06:09:03.254-05:002012-03-02T06:09:03.254-05:00That's the Christian perspective, which sought...That's the Christian perspective, which sought to demonise any view points that it found conflicting, and burn those who followed them, because it's an exercise in social control. "Believe this or die." Now contrast and compare the dogma of monotheism with the peacesful coexistence of beliefs in polytheism. For example in India, where there are over a thousand deities, and yet people live in peace. So much for some kind of ultimate evil being as the source of those religions. They are tolerant of others, respectful, are not invading foreign countries and yet demonised just the same as the peaceful wise men and women of the past and look what happened to them as a consequence. And look at the world today and the state its in without their guidance.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23479575007086176442012-03-01T21:06:40.867-05:002012-03-01T21:06:40.867-05:00I did (and also Herbie Brennan and Paul Hume), but...I did (and also Herbie Brennan and Paul Hume), but my comment - the one that James M. quoted from - vanished into the æther.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37268797611862978282012-03-01T13:10:32.577-05:002012-03-01T13:10:32.577-05:00Satanism -> Druids in a couple of steps... no s...<i>Satanism -> Druids in a couple of steps... no surprise there. Typical for Paganism to be linked to Satanic cults (Christian propaganda at work again) when the very idea of Satan is a Christian one and not a Pagan one.</i><br /><br />It's not only typical, it's in fact doctrinal. Since the Christian theology states that only Christianity is true religion that correctly describes the nature of god, pagan religions are therefore wrong, and therefore tools--either overt or subtle--of Satan. Blowing off this key doctrinal viewpoint as merely propoganda means that you completely miss the point, and are therefore talking past rather than with any Christians who espouse that view.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86739056867714148332012-03-01T13:04:25.189-05:002012-03-01T13:04:25.189-05:00I am really surprised that no one has mentioned Gr...I am really surprised that no one has mentioned Greg Stafford and RuneQuest in the conjunction of role-playing and the occult. Stafford has been a bigwig in American shamanism and pagan circles, having been the publisher of magazines on those topics, in addition to his work on so many RPGs over the decades.Christopher Heltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17931046076046527750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60433075263448202482012-03-01T11:29:38.079-05:002012-03-01T11:29:38.079-05:00I'd also argue that the D&D system is not ...I'd also argue that the D&D system is not only playable, it is very difficult to successfully modify, and that has also contributed to its longevity.<br /><br />One of the more popular revisions to the system is to introduce a system of mana points (which used to be all the rage). But it's also extremely difficult to balance such a system, as you just can't say nth level spells cost N magic points.*<br /><br />One thing I found interesting is that we almost never used to use "studying spellbooks" as a method of controlling magic-users. If you had written your spell down on your character sheet you had learned the spell and could cast it. Spellcasters generally regained their spells at a set time - usually midnight for magic-users ("the witching hour"). Sometimes this varied (sunrise, sunset, noon) for poetic effect. {This was a legacy of playing from Original D&D, but it was maintained even in AD&D games because it was simpler and easier.]<br /><br />Other people have tried the <i>Champions</i> approach and tried to reduce the spells to base effects, that are then built up, with the final total determining the level of the spell. Quite possible, and I've seen some excellent analysis based on this, but in the end it's simpler to say "does this feel like a nth level spell" and "how does it compare to it's neighbours."<br /><br />But to fundamentally change the system means you are no longer playing D&D, since you'll have to introduce some other metric to the game (such as skills), which violate the KISS principle.<br /><br />And besides, it's an awful lot of work to rewrite a complete magic system. Or write one.<br /><br />[* I should disclose use a magic point system in my games because I like the effects it has on my game, and ties in better to my campaign world's philosophy of magic (which was actually mostly created in play by magic-users exploring how magic actually worked). And I like the play effects of magic users being able to casually do minor magics, but finding the really serious magics quite difficult to do.]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84877673390163457202012-03-01T11:00:46.100-05:002012-03-01T11:00:46.100-05:00Can't find my copy of Liber Ka to confirm, but...Can't find my copy of <i>Liber Ka</i> to confirm, but from memory (which admittedly is getting holes in it), it was a Wiccan priestess. It <i>definitely</i> wasn't Isaac.<br /><br />It's interesting to note that the French and US editions of <i>Nephilim</i> are actually quite different. After the core book, the rules diverged, often quite heavily. One of the biggest pieces of divergence was an attempt to add greater "authenticity" to the magic system.<br /><br />I actually prefer the French version. They have a better understanding of what the game was about and a different approach to the occult. <br /><br />There was a lot of wish-fulfillment in the US rules (as in "I [the host] want to become a powerful sorceror") which wasn't in the original (where sorcery are tools used by the nephilim). However this was needed, as most Americans objected quite heartily to the essential premise of the game, so something needed to be done to alleviate this.<br /><br />It would have been interesting to see what might have developed - <i>Liber Ka</i> was the rewrite for sorcery, which was the simplest (and most D&D) of the Nephilim magics). The more interesting magics were never revised.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-92191554303048552382012-03-01T10:56:23.845-05:002012-03-01T10:56:23.845-05:00Good points here. Academics really don't seem ...Good points here. Academics really don't seem to understand the source material. A classic example is how the try and mishmash Freya and Frigg together from the Norse pantheon even though they are completely different (quick example: one cries tears of goldfor her lost husband and wanders the world searching for him, while one is happily married to Odin!). But don't let the details get in the way of a good theory, academia ;-)Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54248148056175648312012-03-01T10:39:15.245-05:002012-03-01T10:39:15.245-05:00If you want a nice game treatment of ritual magic ...If you want a nice game treatment of ritual magic I do recommend Ken Hite's <i>GURPS Cabal</i>. His adaption of <i>Nephilim</i> for the US market also has a lot to recommend it, and it would have been interesting to see what would have developed if the game actually sold.<br /><br /><i>Furry Pirates</i> also captures nicely the feel of 18th Century magic belief, although that is mostly the setting's effects. I suspect, in play, that <i>Victoriana</i>, with it's Guild/Society sanctions and the licensing of black magic would have a similar effect.<br /><br />And I really like how <i>Torg</i> treated ritual magic (which is presented in the <i>Orrosh</i> sourcebook). Captures the feel of such magical practice brilliantly, and yet integrates smoothly into the very powerful engine that drove the game. ["Orrosh has few recorded spells. Occult spells are built around the desired effect, the occultist, and the object of effect."]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50012648612415831132012-03-01T08:22:20.213-05:002012-03-01T08:22:20.213-05:00Religious/mystical/occult beliefs can sometimes ri...Religious/mystical/occult beliefs can sometimes rise to the level of bad fantasy fiction.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86281631679957907862012-03-01T07:59:43.749-05:002012-03-01T07:59:43.749-05:00Satanism -> Druids in a couple of steps... no s...Satanism -> Druids in a couple of steps... no surprise there. Typical for Paganism to be linked to Satanic cults (Christian propaganda at work again) when the very idea of Satan is a Christian one and not a Pagan one.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29645892031178142072012-03-01T07:57:19.536-05:002012-03-01T07:57:19.536-05:00No no, magic is not an attempt to explain somethin...No no, magic is not an attempt to explain something that has _already_ happened, that's the domain of science, religion and philosophy; it's an attempt to _cause_ something to happen. Divination is the seeing of things that are _going_ to happen, which is different again.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20718309679260935692012-02-29T23:50:42.138-05:002012-02-29T23:50:42.138-05:00Doh ... somehow I thought he'd died in the 90s...Doh ... somehow I thought he'd died in the 90s. Nephilim was mid-to late 90s, so maybe it was Bonewits who endorsed it?Mike Monacohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11474135378521139178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19137069197727823982012-02-29T22:09:54.340-05:002012-02-29T22:09:54.340-05:00Except Attis. If you don't want to invest in b...Except Attis. If you don't want to invest in brain bleach, you're much safer not knowing anything about Attis, much less looking up the footnotes.<br /><br />Hint: nothing at all like Mithra, Adonis, Christ, or anybody else. Seriously, not a pretty mythological story. Ew ew ew.Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57456921937909965622012-02-29T22:06:01.027-05:002012-02-29T22:06:01.027-05:00The Golden Bough is great for accumulations of sto...The Golden Bough is great for accumulations of stories and ideas, but unfortunately it's not exactly reliable. A lot of misrepresentation of the primary sources, basically to forward the author's theory that Christianity (in general) and Catholicism (in particular) were basically some kind of pagan grain and sacrifice cult, along with every other religion except Buddhism. <br /><br />Victorians were much given to generalization, so usually every hero is a "solar figure" or "a dying grain god", and every goddess gets mishmashed into "the Goddess who is also every woman ever." Cabell, Eddison, Graves, Campbell, and many neopagan movements share these assumptions of generality. Sort of monotheistic, really.<br /><br />This isn't to say there's not useful folklore stuff. But you have to research the primary sources if you want good info (ie, decipher the footnotes and go see if they actually say what the author says), and you will probably have to search for secondary sources that come from a variety of academic viewpoints if you want more than a caricature of what people who believed this stuff were thinking.Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87955486644684489522012-02-29T21:52:17.609-05:002012-02-29T21:52:17.609-05:00" Indeed, I'd suggest it predates it and ..." Indeed, I'd suggest it predates it and is in fact a strand of DNA retained from roleplaying's wargaming roots."<br /><br />As I read the earliest Dragon magazines, I often see the word "simulation" in reference to the hobby. This does not refer to a computer program, but rather the set of rules a game follows. <br /><br />This is fascinating to read on its own, but it suggests that much of war gaming was about simulation and modeling the "correct" aspects of engagement to train officers (when used in military settings).<br /><br />The idea of simulating magic, to me, is a non-starter. Magic is an irrational mechanism of explaining effects without known causes. <br /><br />Magic, in D&D, is just another form of artillery fire. But I may be too reductionist for some.Joe Johnstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08847388615721715893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61749615222921516202012-02-29T17:53:37.796-05:002012-02-29T17:53:37.796-05:00Marcie, get out of here. YOU'RE DEAD! You don&...Marcie, get out of here. YOU'RE DEAD! You don't exist anymore.Draculahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00587852177919783864noreply@blogger.com