tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5057240022877928325..comments2024-03-19T05:48:34.142-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Sea ChangeJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62860258124171701352008-04-24T11:33:00.000-04:002008-04-24T11:33:00.000-04:00Re: "wargames"This is a very good point. OD&D self...Re: "wargames"<BR/><BR/>This is a very good point. OD&D self-identifies as a "wargame" on its covers and did so right up till the appearance of the Homes Basic Set. The reason for this, despite the idiotic claims of the 4e crowd, is not that <I>D&D</I> was a miniatures game or that it was solely focused on combat -- neither of which is true, either philosophically or historically -- but that, at the time, "wargame" was a broad term for games that were clearly not boardgames and that had grown out of wargaming proper (both miniatures-based and hex and chit-based). <I>Diplomacy</I> is thus a wargame, as were the proto-RPG "Braunstein" games.<BR/><BR/>In any case, this just hits home once again that we really do need someone to write a scholarly history of both RPGs generally and <I>D&D</I> in particular.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65600102553366534282008-04-24T11:28:00.000-04:002008-04-24T11:28:00.000-04:00Re: design of 4eI remain convinced that 4e will ac...Re: design of 4e<BR/><BR/>I remain convinced that 4e will achieve all of its design goals and do so elegantly. I dissent from the view that it will be the bestest edition of <I>D&D</I> ever because I don't think those design goals will serve <I>D&D</I> or its fan base very well. I think there's simply a lot of confusion, even among professional designers, about what <I>D&D</I> is, why it's unique, and why it continues to have such a powerful appeal after nearly 35 years. I also think the wrong lessons are being drawn from the observation of <I>D&D</I>'s "children" -- video games and MMOs -- and that those lessons will deform the vision Gygax and Arneson had back at the beginning. Of course, I'm not sure anyone at WotC cares about that vision anymore.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52062055269257188032008-04-24T10:56:00.000-04:002008-04-24T10:56:00.000-04:00James,I hope you don't mind me hijacking this thre...James,<BR/><BR/>I hope you don't mind me hijacking this thread with a personal post.<BR/><BR/>I found my way here via Jeff's Gameblog when I saw a comment you had posted there. If you don't mind me asking are you the James M. from SMC in the 90's? If so, (or if not as well, though it will mean much less to you) this is Terry Lago from the same place.<BR/><BR/>I had no idea you were an RPGer! I have been getting interested in the hobby again, especially since I've seen this retro-D&D renaissance (mainly through games like Castles & Crusades and reading through Jeff Rients' and philotomy's web-musings), and I've been pining for my old-skool days of D&D in high school.<BR/><BR/>If you want to drop me a line you can get me at dulac3-at-yahoo-dot-com. If you are someone else entirely...please ignore me and sorry for the intrusion! :)<BR/><BR/>Take care!<BR/><BR/>T.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14568999759925296562008-04-23T12:29:00.000-04:002008-04-23T12:29:00.000-04:00“I remember the fumble that was the first edition ...“I remember the fumble that was the first edition of Star Wars d20.”<BR/><BR/>It’s kind of sad. Wizards win a huge license. Maybe one of the few that are worth their effort. With the potential to reach huge numbers of potential customers they might not otherwise.<BR/><BR/>Yet they put—maybe not a <I>minimum</I> of effort—but not as much as they probably should.<BR/><BR/>RPGs based on licensed intellectual property is a whole ’nother issue, though. So, ’nuff said.<BR/><BR/>“I’m very curious to know, though I doubt anyone here can answer, whether we find the ‘old school’ games fun because they conform to our expectations of RPGs (created by us or our original DMs learning these games first), or if they do, in fact, represent an optimal balance between rules and openness.”<BR/><BR/>When I formed expectations for RPGs was when I <I>fled</I> “old school” games. To come back, I had to <I>change</I> my expectations.<BR/><BR/>Remember that Arneson and Gygax weren’t rookies. (Nor a bunch of other pioneers.) They’d both had games published before D&D. They both made up this game to <I>play</I> with their friends.<BR/><BR/>(I <I>might</I> be tempted to argue that wargame designers had a much...I dunno...wider...base of knowledge and experience...to draw upon than most present-day RPG designers—for whom it might be more narrow and deep. “Wargames” covered such diversity including things for which the “war” part didn’t really fit.)<BR/><BR/>Optimum? I don’t know. Well crafted and playtested? Yes.<BR/><BR/>Gygax’s closeness to the material and the limitations of the cost of paper may have meant that it wasn’t communicated as clearly as possible. We have the benefit of lots of out-of-band communications to help us appreciate that the game itself was—and is—awfully good. In my case, in <I>spite</I> of my expectations. (^_^)Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5310580853394907802008-04-22T11:47:00.000-04:002008-04-22T11:47:00.000-04:00"I have little doubt that 4e will be an extremely ..."I have little doubt that 4e will be an extremely well-designed game, perhaps even the best designed edition of D&D ever in an "absolute" sense..."<BR/><BR/>I'm not quite as convinced as you on this point. I suspect you're likely to be correct, but in my more dour moments, I remember the fumble that was the first edition of Star Wars d20. The game was still playable, of course, but issues like armour made it just a little silly in spots. It showed a lack of polish and attention to detail. My nightmare vision of 4e is a game where the optimal party is a pair of warlords and a bunch of rogues and warlocks, and where a monster being an orc or a demon matters less than it being "artillery" or "controller". <BR/><BR/>But that usually happens only when I let my bloodsugar get too low. ;)<BR/><BR/>I'm very curious to know, though I doubt anyone here can answer, whether we find the "old school" games fun because they conform to our expectations of RPGs (created by us or our original DMs learning these games first), or if they do, in fact, represent an optimal balance between rules and openness. I suspect it's probably a mix of the two. Within a certain amount of wiggle-room, the most important factor towards fun is the group and the GM. But beyond that, players must have certain issues dealt with in terms of realism or game pacing before they can relax and just enjoy the rules for themselves. That is to say, some are just fine with a vague background for their character, others need a list of feats or skills spelled out for them, while still others get grumpy if every facet of their character, from learned abilities to physical or emotional defects to philosophical outlook are not modeled in some way by the mechanics. Where you fall on that continuum dictates what sort of game best allows the fun to happen for you.trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48954513612776721332008-04-22T10:48:00.000-04:002008-04-22T10:48:00.000-04:00I had no idea the world of boardgames was rocked w...I had no idea the world of boardgames was rocked with similar sorts of "philosophical" debates, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64719895817878031212008-04-21T16:22:00.000-04:002008-04-21T16:22:00.000-04:00If someone asked my *why* I enjoy OD&D so much, I ...If someone asked my *why* I enjoy OD&D so much, I think I would've been at a loss trying to describe my preference. You've hit the nail on the head with this post. "Fun isn't a formula. Fun is what you bring to a game." <BR/><BR/>Good stuff.Sham aka Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14329116400656617173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-872886665557745252008-04-21T12:34:00.000-04:002008-04-21T12:34:00.000-04:00The reason older properties were never opened is t...The reason older properties were never opened is that WotC was only interested in supporting the current version of the game. They had no interest in keeping older games alive or encouraging people to stick with them rather than move to 3e--in fact, they were seriously concerned that people might NOT migrate to the new edition, as their research showed that a lot of people were still playing 1e at the time. <BR/><BR/>Based on what I know this plan was wildly successful, and the core books sold millions of copies. Compare that to current sales of WotC D&D books which are probably in the 25-50K range.Kevin Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05436497363925902795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88027207006176705422008-04-21T12:14:00.000-04:002008-04-21T12:14:00.000-04:00Regarding an old-school renaissance: I've been kno...Regarding an old-school renaissance: I've been known to wonder aloud at Wizards giving (from their perspective) their prize jewel (3e) away (SRD+OGL) whilst keeping a tight hold on oD&D, classic D&D, and AD&D. Why wouldn't they make those open content as well? We know Gygax pushed them to.<BR/><BR/>Could it be that they expect--at some point--those older properties to become more valuable than the one they gave away?<BR/><BR/>Nah! Couldn't be.<BR/><BR/>Regarding mechanics: I've noticed something about a lot of games. Some of the best games--that have stood the test of time--have some of the simplest rules. Go. Pente.<BR/><BR/>Even Chess and Monopoly aren't all that complex.<BR/><BR/>Diplomacy.<BR/><BR/>It isn't enough to master the rules to be good at these games. The strategies and tactics aren't laid out for you in the rules. You have to think at least one level above the rules (if that makes any sense) to develop strategies and tactics that make you a good player.<BR/><BR/>Mastering the rules is only the first step towards becoming a master chess player.<BR/><BR/>So often, I see the opposite in role-playing games. You get complex rule systems. Players expect that mastering the rules is all you need to do to be a master player. (People have even argued to me that you can't use a tactic unless it is explicitly laid out in the rules.) Instead of trying to apply better strategy and tactics, it becomes about simply having more mastery of the rules.<BR/><BR/>The result? In my group, it was a divide. Those whose eyes quietly glazed over when the other group delved into the intricacies of the rules. The first group never complained. I think they expected it was a necessary part of the hobby. But I didn't like it. When I brought simpler rules to the table, I found that <I>both</I> groups stayed engaged more. That's what I want.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17719963484236003362008-04-21T11:15:00.000-04:002008-04-21T11:15:00.000-04:00Agree wholeheartedly. Simply put, newer games are...Agree wholeheartedly. Simply put, newer games are not the type of games I want to play. Delving back into the history of rpgs has turned up a number of gems that are.<BR/><BR/><BR/>It's funny, if you replace "rpgs" with "board games" your whole post could have been written about the "ameritrash revolution" that occured in the online boardgaming community about a year and a half ago. Basically, people were fed up with new games that focused on "elegant" mechanics and balance but were ulitmately hollow and missed the free wheeling fun of the games of their youth. People started posting and suddenly everyone realized there were a LOT of people who felt likewise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com