tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5073831848896803807..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Births and DeathsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27136160934922304322010-03-25T09:46:07.839-04:002010-03-25T09:46:07.839-04:00Sometimes, character death is the dice's way o...<i>Sometimes, character death is the dice's way of telling you you could be playing a better character.</i><br /><br>Someone should make a T-shirt with this written on it. I'd buy one without hesitation. :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31185380933785846372010-03-25T09:45:20.833-04:002010-03-25T09:45:20.833-04:00It has always irked me a bit that the the archetyp...<i>It has always irked me a bit that the the archetypal D&D starting character -- your 17-year-old Conan-like thug -- in like 3 weeks of game time attains superhero status.</i><br /><br>That's part of why I prefer slow advancement systems. In the year of weekly play I've had for my Dwimmermount campaign, the characters are still mostly 4th-5th level. That's admittedly more powerful than a know-nothing kid from the sticks out to make his name in the world, but it's far from a superhero.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-263273637467729242010-03-25T09:43:04.997-04:002010-03-25T09:43:04.997-04:00So James, what you seem to be saying is old school...<i>So James, what you seem to be saying is old school D&D character generation is much like Traveller, in that you can die during character generation, but it takes a lot longer than Traveller -- ending at, say, third level.</i><br /><br>Sorta. The big exception I take to the analogy is that, while a newly created <i>Traveller</i> character might be 46 years old and with an implied history as a result of the character generation system, he's still not much more of a character than a 1st-level fighter in <i>D&D</i>. Becoming a character is what happens through play.<br /><br />That said, I don't one should become any more attached to a 1st-level fighter than to a character you're rolling up in <i>Traveller</i>, who's probably likely to die or fail to re-enlist before you're entirely happy with the results.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3985253671155271292010-03-25T09:38:53.608-04:002010-03-25T09:38:53.608-04:00I think the idea of "made v. born" and &...<i>I think the idea of "made v. born" and "attachment to character concept" are probably a big thing that separates types of players and types of systems.</i><br /><br>I think there's more than a little truth to this.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80647757457639883802010-03-24T22:16:38.326-04:002010-03-24T22:16:38.326-04:00Must be right, no one in my recent B2 ITGW game di...Must be right, no one in my recent <a href="http://trollandflame.blogspot.com/2010/03/itgw-b2-caves-of-chaos-game-report.html" rel="nofollow">B2 ITGW</a> game died! But one player rolled a 4 str for his dwarf and loved it.<br /><br />P.S. I always thought the deadly part was 1/2 an in joke and not to be taken seriously.Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82009620467786185842010-03-24T12:40:35.670-04:002010-03-24T12:40:35.670-04:00Yep, Pendragon's Winter Turn is great stuff.
...Yep, Pendragon's Winter Turn is great stuff.<br /><br />That's one thing I like about using clans in Tekumel. A PC can start with a blank slate character who has some nebulous ties and affiliations to others and if the PC dies before long there's always another clan cousin around to replace the last PC. Or in a pinch a servant. If you're at a new location, neo problem, just go to the local clanhouse or related clan and pick a new PC out. And have an adventure or two at or on the way to the clanhouse.<br /><br />I prefer to have characters built around a concept with a strong spark of inspiration and a few details with plenty of elbow room for development in play and from interaction with the other players. Always looking to try something new or at least based around a setting's appeal to me. <br /><br />Something like Mongoose's Traveller or Runequest 2 themed group skill packages is nice. Loose group concepts with a round robin filling in gaps allows for random chargen while still having some base proficiency.<br /><br />I don't know about using terms like Counter-Reformation et al. Too real world religiously charged IMO. They first bring to mind the Inquisition, an ossified Orthodoxy reaffirming baroque additions and other aspects best not associated with any gaming style. The antithesis of DIY and No One True Way. And sets up "the other side" as being just that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72087200303895556282010-03-24T11:30:11.193-04:002010-03-24T11:30:11.193-04:00@Will: The more of the work you try to artificiall...@Will: <i>The more of the work you try to artificially force up-front (ten-page 1st level character "histories", anyway?), the less believable and memorable the final result.</i><br /><br />I disagree. The most memorable characters my group has ever made were those in which we sat down as a group and spent a few hours doing character creation together. That included coming up with brief (one-paragraph) backgrounds, and tying the characters together through shared experiences and relationships. <br /><br />I'd make the argument that this style of character generation isn't artificial and it certainly wasn't forced. I don't feel there's a big benefit in making people write out long backgrounds for starting characters. In fact, I feel that having people write out long backgrounds in isolation from the rest of the group is a recipe for the group to feel fragmented and disjointed, which is something I try to avoid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12024695286479771632010-03-24T11:22:48.828-04:002010-03-24T11:22:48.828-04:00Giga Boy: If a player is given too much choice/ co...Giga Boy: <i>If a player is given too much choice/ control in character creation, most of the times he or she will end up playing always the same character. This is...one of the hallmarks of "modern" gaming.</i><br /><br />Really? Somehow, I've failed to observe this <i>hallmark phenomenon</i> in my 15+ years of gaming. In fact, typically what I see is the opposite: players who want to try something new and different after their old character retires.<br /><br />Actually, we do have one guy in our group who always plays the ranger. He's been consistently playing rangers from 2nd edition onward. He's even played ranger-like characters in non-D&D systems. I think there's just something about that archetype that appeals to him. He's the odd guy, though. Most people want to move on, try something new, stir the pot a bit.<br /><br />There is something that appeals to me in the challenge of surviving to a certain level before being allowed to become a "true character." I'm trying to convince my group to do some OD&D gaming on nights when we don't run our usual 4e campaign.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69835279569864278552010-03-24T11:19:26.535-04:002010-03-24T11:19:26.535-04:00If this is the RPG Counter-Reformation, can we exp...If this is the RPG Counter-Reformation, can we expect a Thirty Year's War soon? Paging Mother Courage... (Ah well... Paris is worth descending armour class...)<br /><br />More seriously -- in my experience if players are attached to their characters they'll find ways to bring them back, even if resurrection isn't freely available. In the longest campaign I played we had characters poisoned, turned to gold and sucked into extradimensional voids and they all came back (or at least were animated, in the case of the gold dwarf), but not without effort on our part.<br /><br />For most RPGs I tend to hew to the Aristotelian idea that character is repeated action -- in other words, you establish who your character is by what s/he does. (Something I believe in when writing as well.) The main exception is superhero games, where the genre demands more detail before playing.Matthew Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04905727799828366356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81509245402077688942010-03-24T10:23:52.870-04:002010-03-24T10:23:52.870-04:00As I've said before, I've never had a char...As I've said before, I've never had a character croak where a better, spicier character didn't pop up to replace them. <br /><br />When Ferret the Brownie got smushed by a giant, Zzapokk the Lizard Man, my favorite character ever, stepped into his tiny shoes. <br /><br />When Nosnoj the Magic Man got punched in the neck by a zombie, Freddie the Bastard arose from among the hirelings and went on to glory. <br /><br />Sometimes, character death is the dice's way of telling you you could be playing a better character.BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13940778915974984712010-03-24T10:11:46.091-04:002010-03-24T10:11:46.091-04:00Our DM uses skull and cross bones stickers and put...Our DM uses skull and cross bones stickers and puts them on his DM screen as badges of honor, like notches in his belt. It creates a certain gallows humor and dark mirth that we all enjoy.<br /><br />As players we've had a lengthy discussion and our group consensus was that any combination of a series of bad die rolls (not save or die) or player misjudgments are fair game for character death. But then again, we tend to spend time developing their backgrounds, personalities, and playing styles at the beginning.Professor Chappellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14553875574589978412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71973823915523973932010-03-24T09:52:11.587-04:002010-03-24T09:52:11.587-04:00In this way, I am backing you all the way- let a t...In this way, I am backing you all the way- let a thousand flowers bloom for us to recover what was once lost with the mania or as some might see the mad dash to emulate the competition (computer based games). What they failed to realize was that games were fun because they involved real interaction. And, while the old school could allow dice to fall where they may, they were not adverse to dice falling off the gaming table - otherwise, something no mathematical model could construct - the unbelievable creativity that individuals and groups show.<br /><br />I am somewhat skeptical of Goodman but like all companies they have their strengths and weakness. I prefer to steal their strengths and ignore their weaknesses by taking ownership over the game. That is what the Old Skool is all about - not being hemmed in by ever increasing supplements or books unless they further liberate the imagination.<br /><br />Newbies of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your rigid application of "the rules".<br /><br />As per main posting, I think we old school gamers accepted that death was part of life. I admit that I was rather late coming on board with this topic (being a child of the Hickman Revolution) but never believed that my characters to be unbeatable even as they strove toward immortality. I also got to enjoy to play lower level characters which drove me into likes of Cthulhu & Traveller - where knowledge acquisition is prized over stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54896809058911246182010-03-24T05:51:27.051-04:002010-03-24T05:51:27.051-04:00Regarding randomly generated characters: it is one...Regarding randomly generated characters: it is one of the things I love more in old games.<br />If a player is given too much choice/ control in character creation, most of the times he or she will end up playing always the same character. This is something I find extremely boring, and is one of the hallmarks of "modern" gaming.artikidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17474295473142339717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6135548349304608212010-03-24T00:36:17.478-04:002010-03-24T00:36:17.478-04:00Dragon #20 (Nov. 1978) -- 600 deaths in 2-3 years ...Dragon #20 (Nov. 1978) -- 600 deaths in 2-3 years of one group's play:<br /><br /><a href="http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2009/09/death-statistics-in-d-1978.html" rel="nofollow">http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2009/09/death-statistics-in-d-1978.html</a>Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54874600373885997662010-03-23T23:26:10.469-04:002010-03-23T23:26:10.469-04:00The best campaign I ever played -- 6 years long --...The best campaign I ever played -- 6 years long -- ended with half of the party dying in the end. And those were glorious deaths. It was an epic, world-shattering ending with the final battle looking iffy until the final end. You had characters knowingly sacrifice themselves just to buy someone else another round.<br /><br />We were more proud of those deaths than any campaign that ended with living characters before or since.Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14039652384328042542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77298005275815029842010-03-23T23:14:22.541-04:002010-03-23T23:14:22.541-04:00"Yeah, ya might want to take that into accoun..."Yeah, ya might want to take that into account in your opinionated commentary, Willie."<br /><br />That doesn't even make sense. Literally.<br /><br />Are you trying to insult me or what? Who even are you?Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83537041425408268402010-03-23T23:05:56.846-04:002010-03-23T23:05:56.846-04:00Adam is dead on, and Grorch was a great character....Adam is dead on, and Grorch was a great character...sadly, having rolled a 3 for personality my radish farmer character proceeded to be anti-social and rather mean spirited...Keith Sloanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319879076978887933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62029490227676226122010-03-23T23:04:20.343-04:002010-03-23T23:04:20.343-04:00That's right. In RPG games, just as in real li...<i>That's right. In RPG games, just as in real life, character is a thing that happens over time.</i><br /><br />Yeah, ya might want to take that into account in your opinionated commentary, Willie.metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22095876164949814442010-03-23T22:40:22.486-04:002010-03-23T22:40:22.486-04:00I corroborate everything Jeff said, although I pla...I corroborate everything Jeff said, although I played the session after his.<br /><br />We each had two characters; my first, Fast Eddie the Astrologer, was the first casualty of the day, as his first action "Gems, you say? I'll pry one out with my knife!" led to his immediate demise. And my other character, like Jeff's, was the one (Grorch the Uncomplaining, Gravedigger) to put the ball in the concavity and get the Vision Of The Goat-Headed Alien (which could only end well, of course).<br /><br />I talked to Goodman a little about this, because he felt I did more characterization than many of the other players, and, well, for me, it was a matter of letting the randomly-rolled stats and the randomly-rolled occupation provide a characterization. Grorch had high stamina, reasonably high intelligence, and crap everything else, including awful luck which manifested (when combined with his low strength) as a -4 (!!) in melee (low agility too). So clearly he's someone who stands in the rain and digs and digs and digs, and thinks a lot about stuff, and never ever ever says anything that could possibly be interpreted as starting a fight. <br /><br />Given what he ended up doing, he's clearly headed towards necromancy. Had Fast Eddie lived, he woulda been a thief or illusionist in the making. Six stats and a job? There's a story there, if you want to think about it for a couple minutes.Adam Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06368676086759298705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71589384789400418972010-03-23T22:03:49.126-04:002010-03-23T22:03:49.126-04:00@ limpey - hahaha!! Consider that stolen! Gives ne...@ limpey - hahaha!! Consider that stolen! Gives new meaning to "In your face" :PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48922210544977570222010-03-23T21:31:14.345-04:002010-03-23T21:31:14.345-04:00That's right. In RPG games, just as in real li...That's right. In RPG games, just as in real life, character is a thing that happens over time.<br /><br />The more of the work you try to artificially force up-front (ten-page 1st level character "histories", anyway?), the less believable and memorable the final result.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66855286431958628732010-03-23T20:57:37.336-04:002010-03-23T20:57:37.336-04:00I am about to run a dungeon base game using osric....I am about to run a dungeon base game using osric. I have had all my players roll two characters and made sure everyone knows death happens. ALLOT.<br />Too me character death is a big part of old games. New games just do everything they can to make it safe to be an adventure. If you survive to level to 3rd level than you got something to brag about.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16841934354409819708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40146926742606989222010-03-23T20:27:03.483-04:002010-03-23T20:27:03.483-04:00One of the things I like about Pendragon is that f...One of the things I like about Pendragon is that failure and death are real risks, but are partially mitigated by the having an heir, which nicely encourages, but does not mandate, getting married and having kids, with all the complications and roleplaying opportunities that ensue.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07197274506610578370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89094282513704387482010-03-23T20:24:29.464-04:002010-03-23T20:24:29.464-04:00D.A.H. -- yes, a combo of random and chosen aspect...D.A.H. -- yes, a combo of random and chosen aspects of character creation. I totally agree.<br /><br />That's why I've been more and more interested in the Traveller system of creation (James has been bringing it up lately, too.) <br /><br />I've been experimenting with using Traveller structure -- choosing careers, with random outcomes -- but adapting it to fantasy, using the careers list from WFRP. The results are extremely fun.<br /><br />It has always irked me a bit that the the archetypal D&D starting character -- your 17-year-old Conan-like thug -- in like 3 weeks of game time attains superhero status.<br /><br />In the system I've been playing around with, we're creating 42-year-old shopkeepers who also have backgrounds as rat-catchers, chimneysweeps, and highwaymen. (And a thousand other combos.) Over that history, they've picked up a wonderful hodgepodge of skills and traits, and they're ready for another career change -- adventurer. <br /><br />We're endlessly tinkering with the setup, but it feels a lot more satisfying than D&D character creation (particularly for a bunch of 40-something gamers!).Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06875162048260852724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86386222156566048942010-03-23T20:10:35.311-04:002010-03-23T20:10:35.311-04:00Tony, you have perfectly summed up my thinking. I,...Tony, you have perfectly summed up my thinking. I, too, am a pre-millennial dispensationalist! That's why my simulacrum has now diverged so far off course. (Though it was a fair jump to begin with.)<br /><br /><br />Also, I love a combination of random and chosen character creation, along with a bit of gamble. I like it when random scores force you to make tough decisions on which class to choose and so forth.David Alastair Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04388339435468414583noreply@blogger.com