tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5137312816929698609..comments2024-03-19T07:16:47.924-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Huh?James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88657452501421158782008-09-30T10:44:00.000-04:002008-09-30T10:44:00.000-04:00If the execs perceive 4e as a move in the board ga...<I>If the execs perceive 4e as a move in the board game direction, and if they feel 4e also underperforms, then they may actually decide it needs to go in the opposite direction rather than continue farther along the board game route.</I><BR/><BR/>You are indeed an optimist :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68645085931604617012008-09-30T02:30:00.000-04:002008-09-30T02:30:00.000-04:00My gut feeling is that 4e was produced, at least i...<I>My gut feeling is that 4e was produced, at least in part, to answer Hasbro's likely concerns that D&D is an "underperforming brand."</I><BR/><BR/>Assuming this is true... While I’m certainly one to rail about the potential stupidity of executives—having witnessed plenty of it first-hand—I think there’s actually a bit of hope here.<BR/><BR/>If the execs perceive 4e as a move in the board game direction, and if they feel 4e also underperforms, then they may actually decide it needs to go in the opposite direction rather than continue farther along the board game route.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15320286345349569582008-09-26T11:32:00.000-04:002008-09-26T11:32:00.000-04:001st and 2nd level spells come not from the interce...<I>1st and 2nd level spells come not from the intercession of a divine power but from the cleric's own belief and so could never be taken away, even if the cleric had otherwise strayed from the tenets of his patron deity.</I><BR/><BR/>leads inevitably to the 4th level spell: <I>al Ghazzali's question</I>: On a failed saving throw, causes a cleric to lose that natural faith that is the source of spellcasting power. On a second failed save, also prompts 2D6 years of intense, introspective soul-searching, during which no adventuring is possible. At DM's option, the character may emerge from this soul-search as a new character class, Philosopher.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42528400421873979842008-09-25T11:25:00.000-04:002008-09-25T11:25:00.000-04:00That's increasingly my feeling too, but the na...<I>That's increasingly my feeling too, but the name is a very powerful one -- which is why it continues to get re-used. I recall Ryan Dancey saying a few years ago that the name "Dungeons & Dragons" has public name recognition in the 90% range. If true, that more than explains why WotC/Hasbro will continue to use it for whatever fantasy-themed game they produce, no matter how dissimilar it is in content or spirit to the game Gygax and Arneson published in 1974.</I><BR/><BR/>Depressingly accurate, I fear.<BR/><BR/>RE: The potential 5th Ed.<BR/><BR/>When the 3.5 core books were announced, several friends and I started discussing why. Our thoughts were that any serious change would require a genuinely new edition, whereas any minor changes would warrant only an errata. Then one of us pointed out that WotC made more money by selling core books than they did by selling supplements... Virtually everybody in a group wants a copy of the PHB, fewer (but still a goodly amount) want the DMG and MM, and only a handful will buy modules and supplements. Given this line of thought, I suspect that a 5th edition will come sooner than we might otherwise think.Doctor Apocalypsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06002801879387232554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90399222821659491962008-09-25T11:05:00.000-04:002008-09-25T11:05:00.000-04:00There is still the same amount of freedom and crea...<I>There is still the same amount of freedom and creativity in each approach.</I><BR/><BR/>For me, not being able to make up rules on the fly is a good example of game's <I>not</I> being flexible. It might still be a good game; it's certainly a tightly designed one. That's not the same as a flexible one, though, particularly when you're comparing it to OD&D. I understand the point is to say that 4e is more flexible than its immediate predecessor, but, unless there's something about 4e I'm just not seeing, there is no way that it's more flexible than even 2e, never mind OD&D.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3927928224572374962008-09-25T10:13:00.000-04:002008-09-25T10:13:00.000-04:00Also I would add that the only other RPG I read th...Also I would add that the only other RPG I read that has a similar approach of D&D 4th's combat heavy non-combat lite. Is the Melee/Wizardry/Fantasy Trip series by Metagaming.<BR/><BR/>You could argue that about Arms Law but that quickly evolved into the full Rolemaster RPG.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11262101404802775522008-09-25T10:12:00.000-04:002008-09-25T10:12:00.000-04:00I agree. I grow very frustrated with the chorus of...<I>I agree. I grow very frustrated with the chorus of people who claim that 4e is somehow more "flexible" than any edition since OD&D, .. but there are many, many areas that are verboten to such adjudication, most notably anything relating to characters and their play.</I><BR/><BR/>The combat system is crunch heavy like GURPS, Harnmaster, Rolemaster, and a dozen other RPGs. <BR/><BR/>In those games you don't generally don't make up rules on the fly to handle various situations. Instead you make up tactics using the rules as building blocks to handle the situation. <BR/><BR/>Each rule is very basic (facing, movement, to hit, damage, etc) but in a well designed game they combine to do a lot of interesting things.<BR/><BR/>There is still the same amount of freedom and creativity in each approach.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10262743653903995272008-09-25T09:15:00.000-04:002008-09-25T09:15:00.000-04:00Re: 5eMy gut feeling is that 4e was produced, at l...Re: 5e<BR/><BR/>My gut feeling is that 4e was produced, at least in part, to answer Hasbro's likely concerns that <I>D&D</I> is an "underperforming brand." Given the name recognition the game enjoys, I'm sure Hasbro wonders why it's not making more money from <I>D&D</I> than it is. 4e's design is at least partially an attempt to answer that challenge and I suspect, even if it does phenomenally well -- better than 3e -- it still won't do well enough to justify its continued existence as presently constituted. Any game in the future to carry the name <I>Dungeons & Dragons</I> will be less like a tabletop RPG and more like a board/minis game.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27854374678639391632008-09-25T09:10:00.000-04:002008-09-25T09:10:00.000-04:00But there are other areas which are very strongly ...<I>But there are other areas which are very strongly considered off-limits to DM meddling - the assumption being that DMs are prone to an abuse of power. I think this lack of trust says a lot about where Official D&D is heading nowadays, and whom it is interested in accommodating.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree. I grow very frustrated with the chorus of people who claim that 4e is somehow more "flexible" than any edition since OD&D, because they seem to be overlooking the central lack of trust that characterizes 4e's design. Yes, it's true that there's a lot of leeway give to the referee in adjudicating certain situational game mechanics -- moreso than 3e as written anyway -- but there are many, many areas that are <I>verboten</I> to such adjudication, most notably anything relating to characters and their play.<BR/><BR/><I>Also, I am feeling a bit like Baron Boddissey.</I><BR/><BR/>Bodissey often spoke good sense, so that's not a bad person to emulate.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10136035868056010262008-09-25T08:59:00.000-04:002008-09-25T08:59:00.000-04:00"(Of course, I don't think there will a 5e, but th...<I>"(Of course, I don't think there will a 5e, but that's a separate topic)"</I><BR/><BR/>I'd also be interested in hearing your opinion on this subject. At this point, I find an eventual 5e likely, but very probable that it will lose most pretensions to the status of roleplaying games as we now know them.Melanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26078607482748123482008-09-25T08:33:00.001-04:002008-09-25T08:33:00.001-04:00"(Of course, I don't think there will a 5e, but th..."(Of course, I don't think there will a 5e, but that's a separate topic)"<BR/><BR/>Care to speculate further on that topic, perhaps in a seperate post?<BR/><BR/>I'm curious to hear what your theories are for the game's future.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130831351237667189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63352563758723451052008-09-25T08:33:00.000-04:002008-09-25T08:33:00.000-04:00Re: the last comment -- I believe that is correct....Re: the last comment -- I believe that is correct. 4e-as-written seems to be mostly friendly to DM preparation; obviously, the designers have learned some lessons about 3e's problems in this regard (although, to be fair: if you are okay with stripped-down stat blocks and don't stray too far into templates and advanced monsters, 3.0 works well enough). <BR/><BR/>But there are other areas which are very strongly considered off-limits to DM meddling - the assumption being that DMs are prone to an abuse of power. I think this lack of trust says a lot about where Official D&D is heading nowadays, and whom it is interested in accommodating.<BR/><BR/>I have said my piece about the "positive reinforcement" bit some time ago (in fact, way back in 2006), and it still seems to be making the rounds over the internet, with a recent 500+ post thread on Gleemax, and choice quotes such as<BR/><BR/><I>"Untruth dressed up as pretentious intelectualism and with heavy weight of text is still untruth."</I> -- The Ubbergeek, Gleemax<BR/><BR/><I>"Melan's an idiot. An eloquent, very well-written idiot, but an idiot nonetheless. He gets up on a soapbox with dreams of being a demagogue and gets it kicked out from under him because he forgot to build his soapbox out of facts twisted to support his argument."</I> -- Ardent, Gleemax<BR/><BR/><I>"This supposedly "brilliant" rant is, in actuality, the ramblings of a dim bulb."</I><BR/>-- arderkrag, Gleemax<BR/><BR/><I>"The general attitude I got from Melan is that not only should a game not be fun the entire time, but it should also frustrating and randomly punishing you for reasons beyond your control."</I> -- Antioch, Gleemax<BR/><BR/><I>"What's the point of having the Rust Monster at all if its only purpose is to be a "test of faith" that the DM will wave his magic wand and make it better afterwards?<BR/><BR/>Oh, wait, I forgot, we're talking about the scary immersionist belief that *things that happen* in the game are inherently "fun", whether or not they're actually interesting or rewarding. Silly me."</I> --ArcTan, Gleemax<BR/><BR/><I>"It's just not fun. Maybe some people can wear that lack of fun as a badge of honor, but I say why? I learned modesty out in the real word. I learned humility from real people. I learned the error of pride in the arena of love. Why do I need to suffer those things in a game of fantasy where I've taken on the mantle of street scoundrel."</I> --Exposed Wires, Gleemax<BR/><BR/><I>"The article is written with such gravity and conviction, you would think the subject concerned such subject matters as loss of freedom, the censoring of art, or the loss of human life on a grand scale."</I> -- Chef Mike, Gleemax<BR/><BR/>I obviously did something right. Also, I am feeling a bit like Baron Boddissey.<BR/>--MelanMelanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07165894144553629675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40464761886929077902008-09-25T08:05:00.000-04:002008-09-25T08:05:00.000-04:002. An obsession with eliminating (well at least mi...<I>2. An obsession with eliminating (well at least minimizing) any kind of "negative reinforcement" for players as well as any discretion for the DM.</I><BR/><BR/>From what I can tell, 4e is about <I>increasing</I> the latitude of referee control (compared to 3e) <I>within a narrow range</I> (compared to OD&D/<I>AD&D</I>). That narrow range specifically does not include anything that has implications for the way the player plays his character (thus the downplaying of alignment, the homogenization of races/classes, etc.). It's a strange hybrid approach who inconsistencies, I predict, will be the source of 4e's being eventually deemed "broken" by those arguing for the need for a new edition.<BR/><BR/>(Of course, I don't think there will a 5e, but that's a separate topic)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43675912064243135952008-09-25T07:59:00.000-04:002008-09-25T07:59:00.000-04:00Sadly, there's nothing left but the name.That's in...<I>Sadly, there's nothing left but the name.</I><BR/><BR/>That's increasingly my feeling too, but the name is a very powerful one -- which is why it continues to get re-used. I recall Ryan Dancey saying a few years ago that the name "<I>Dungeons & Dragons</I>" has public name recognition in the 90% range. If true, that more than explains why WotC/Hasbro will continue to use it for whatever fantasy-themed game they produce, no matter how dissimilar it is in content or spirit to the game Gygax and Arneson published in 1974.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43267911143715527622008-09-24T16:21:00.000-04:002008-09-24T16:21:00.000-04:00I'm suprised I hadn't heard about this any...I'm suprised I hadn't heard about this anywhere earlier. Definitely another major break with the traditions of D&D. Paladins have always been a tough choice for players: I can get a guy with wicked cool powers...but I have to play him as a good guy..all the time..or lose my wicked cool powers. I liked that a lot. Neither I nor anyone I knew played Paladins very often, but when we did it was something special. A lawful good Faustian bargain between the player and DM if you will. <BR/><BR/>I think this comes about from 2 things:<BR/><BR/>1. An obsession about "balancing" all the races, classes, etc. <BR/><BR/>2. An obsession with eliminating (well at least minimizing) any kind of "negative reinforcement" for players as well as any discretion for the DM.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07130831351237667189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55827224927547692512008-09-24T15:56:00.000-04:002008-09-24T15:56:00.000-04:00Now I know you're an intelligent guy... why haven'...<I><B>Now I know you're an intelligent guy... why haven't you managed to grasp this simple concept yet? Or do you merely enjoy acting like you don't get it to highlight what you consider faults in the new game?</B><BR/><BR/>I think it's truer to say that, while I do get the fact that 4e is in fact a different game -- I've said as much in this blog on many occasions -- I don't really get it on a deep level. I keep hoping against hope that somehow, somewhere, beneath it all, there's still something left of the game I've been playing for nearly 30 years.</I><BR/><BR/>Sadly, there's nothing left but the name. I wish that WotC had chosen to market their new game on its own merits, rather than use the name of an older game that they happen to own, but such is the world we live in.Doctor Apocalypsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06002801879387232554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87047761356536953802008-09-24T14:44:00.000-04:002008-09-24T14:44:00.000-04:00Thinking about it, the impossibility of "losing" y...Thinking about it, the impossibility of "losing" your paladin powers if you shift alignment raises a tantalising possibility: why not have paladins who "fall" get "headhunted" by gods of the appropriate alignment? Winning the loyalty of a sworn vassal of a rival is precisely the sort of thing gods love...Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082868759668427041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46057567334915787472008-09-24T13:53:00.000-04:002008-09-24T13:53:00.000-04:00Within the areas the rules system covers it THE su...<I>Within the areas the rules system covers it THE substitute for our world's physic.</I><BR/><BR/>I can't agree with that (as a perception I would be inclined towards), but this probably isn't the place to extensively debate it.<BR/><BR/><I>My attitude is because the games rules are the physics for my setting. It is the game rules that must conform to my setting assumptions not the other way around. I will read the rule system and figure out all the rough spots where it doesn't fit well with the my Majestic Wilderlands and make a house rule on it.</I><BR/><BR/>That seems more agreeable to me, but it is not a process I would favour. <BR/><BR/><I>The fallacy of that person's statement was also that the rules doesn't say that they CAN'T fall. 4e just doesn't address the issue at all.</I><BR/><BR/>I find that most jokes don't stand up to a close analysis.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6896263648409556382008-09-24T12:43:00.000-04:002008-09-24T12:43:00.000-04:00Not sure I understand the intent of this sentence ...<I>Not sure I understand the intent of this sentence correctly. If this refers to the rules of the game literally being the physics of the imagined reality, I probably could not oppose that view strongly enough.</I><BR/><BR/>Within the areas the rules system covers it THE substitute for our world's physic. <BR/><BR/>But the point of my statement is that the using a particular rule system straight up will cause certain consequences to occur for a setting.<BR/><BR/>In D&D 4th those consequences are limited in the class and power section. It is the ritual system that has most implications for a campaign world. <BR/><BR/>For example Leomund's Chest has implications for Dungeon Crawls. As well as the teleport ritual that allow you return to a arcane circle from anywhere in the world.<BR/><BR/>My attitude is because the games rules are the physics for my setting. It is the game rules that must conform to my setting assumptions not the other way around. I will read the rule system and figure out all the rough spots where it doesn't fit well with the my Majestic Wilderlands and make a house rule on it.<BR/><BR/>In general my experience is that switching between the assumptions of GURPS 4th Ed Magic and the assumptions of the D&D 4th Magic/Ritual system hasn't been difficult.<BR/><BR/><I>Somebody made the amusing comment over on GitP that now that Paladin's can no longer fall</I><BR/><BR/>The fallacy of that person's statement was also that the rules doesn't say that they CAN'T fall. 4e just doesn't address the issue at all.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23220919079025396712008-09-24T12:35:00.000-04:002008-09-24T12:35:00.000-04:00I find the "once you get them, you have them for e...<I>I find the "once you get them, you have them for ever" approach to divine powers to be full delicious nuance.</I><BR/><BR/>For what it's worth, this approach has a mild resemblance the orthodox Christian concept of a "sacramental character" imprinted by baptism, confirmation, and holy orders. A priest is ordained "a priest forever," for example, which means that even an evil priest retains his faculties, regardless of the state of his soul.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74118744316263262222008-09-24T12:30:00.000-04:002008-09-24T12:30:00.000-04:00As a believer in predestination (note: I'm lying a...As a believer in predestination (note: I'm lying about that) I find the "once you get them, you have them for ever" approach to divine powers to be full delicious nuance.George Austinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12978533835518319514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4939227300789642882008-09-24T12:24:00.000-04:002008-09-24T12:24:00.000-04:00After all, the Lay-on-Hands, I lose my powers if I...<I>After all, the Lay-on-Hands, I lose my powers if I fall Paladin is very much a product of D&D, not of any recognizable source material.</I><BR/><BR/>You have to remember that of equal importance to me is the mantra that "<I>D&D</I> is always right," which I've talked about in several entries. By this I mean that you don't mess with decades of tradition without good reason. So far as I can tell, the change to the way the paladin works in 4e was implemented for no reason other than "a bad DM could abuse this." That's simply not good enough reason in my opinion.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71279809371129675982008-09-24T12:16:00.000-04:002008-09-24T12:16:00.000-04:00I'm surprised the loss of the "traditiona...I'm surprised the loss of the "traditional" Paladin bothers you so much. After all, the Lay-on-Hands, I lose my powers if I fall Paladin is very much a product of D&D, not of any recognizable source material.<BR/><BR/>Thinking about actual Fantasy or Mythology, I can't think of a single example of an individual who loses their God-given powers when the god turns against them. Lancelot didn't become a worse knight after he boinked Guenivere, Odysseus didn't lose his legendary cunning after he hacked off Athena. Darth Vader didn't become unable to control the Force when he turned to the Dark Side. The whole idea that betraying your calling makes you less powerful is very much a D&D-ism and one which *arguably* acutally cheapens the path of the Paladin. After all, what's more admirable, pursuing a life of virtue because it gives you cool powers, or pursuing a life of virtue because it's the right thing to do?Dan Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05711867728179306264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40908748363570338252008-09-24T11:29:00.000-04:002008-09-24T11:29:00.000-04:00To me a RPG's combat system, lite or heavy, is it'...<I>To me a RPG's combat system, lite or heavy, is it's physics.</I><BR/><BR/>Not sure I understand the intent of this sentence correctly. If this refers to the rules of the game literally being the physics of the imagined reality, I probably could not oppose that view strongly enough.<BR/><BR/>Somebody made the amusing comment over on GitP that now that Paladin's can no longer fall, the only recourse for gross misconduct is for a higher power to kill them. I got a chuckle out of that.<BR/><BR/>I don't mind the idea of "belief" being enough to power spells, but I think one has to understand that you can't just believe in any old thing. What is believed is of considerable importance.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12616877636667303522008-09-24T11:28:00.000-04:002008-09-24T11:28:00.000-04:00Now I know you're an intelligent guy... why haven'...<I>Now I know you're an intelligent guy... why haven't you managed to grasp this simple concept yet? Or do you merely enjoy acting like you don't get it to highlight what you consider faults in the new game?</I><BR/><BR/>I think it's truer to say that, while I do get the fact that 4e is in fact a different game -- I've said as much in this blog on many occasions -- I don't really <I>get</I> it on a deep level. I keep hoping against hope that somehow, somewhere, beneath it all, there's still something left of the game I've been playing for nearly 30 years.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com