tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5142453309329150913..comments2024-03-19T05:48:34.142-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Save or Die, Part IIJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69241510808260278002009-07-10T10:08:05.606-04:002009-07-10T10:08:05.606-04:00@Brunomac:
"I have always found character cr...@Brunomac:<br /><br />"I have always found character creation to be one of the coolest, most interesting, most fun, (etc) part of the entire rpg process. So if you were to die in my game, just taking over the grunt who has been shelping your gold sacks would blow out an entire chunk of player creativity and fun right there."<br /><br />Taking over the henchmen also doesn't have to be a permament thing - I like to let them do it sometimes as a way to keep them playing until the session ends. Then they can take the time to properly work out a new character before the next game.Big McStrongmusclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07067031012393190130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5047583625379190342009-07-09T17:28:43.409-04:002009-07-09T17:28:43.409-04:00you can always have the players create their own h...you can always have the players create their own henchmen - what I mean is that when they hire somebody, the DM can set a few guidelines (OK, he is a level 3 fighter, has a sword+1 and X amount of gold worth of equipment) and let the player create the NPC from there. That way, if the player ends up kicking the bucket and has to take over the henchman, the element of character creation is not missing (I agree with Brunomac to an extent that the character creation process is in itself quite fun, although I don't think it is one of the most fun aspects of roleplaying IMO).<br /><br />You will also normally end up with more fleshed out NPCs this way because the DM, even a good DM, will likely rush the process of creating a bunch of henchmen much more than individual players creating an individual henchman to serve each of them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07648499022366444265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62416884976730627892009-07-09T14:10:19.622-04:002009-07-09T14:10:19.622-04:00I like the use of henchmen as a way to keep player...I like the use of henchmen as a way to keep players in the game >when primary characters are indisposed -- and the strategic element in using them as replacements for PCs who have perished<<br /><br />I have always found character creation to be one of the coolest, most interesting, most fun, (etc) part of the entire rpg process. So if you were to die in my game, just taking over the grunt who has been shelping your gold sacks would blow out an entire chunk of player creativity and fun right there. Sure, they can put some of their own personality and background into it, but I think any player who doesn't get to start a character from scratch is getting seriously shafted.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47068665693098498762009-07-09T13:05:38.892-04:002009-07-09T13:05:38.892-04:00A clarification: The DM in that game has been most...A clarification: The DM in that game has been most up front about matters; the element of dishonesty is not present. There is very much a sense that adjudication ought to stand up to a consensus of informed opinion among us. To me, that makes a big difference!<br /><br />We are all of middle age, and started playing back in the 1970s. I am sure that there are variations in experience among that demographic, but I don't think our commonality of expectations is terribly unusual.<br /><br />I think that only one of us (not I!) had as an adolescent the finances to build much of a game collection. My experience was mostly of games in which but one person owned the rule book, and thereby became GM. I think that circumstance may have shaped a relationship among players, referee and rules a bit different from that prevailing among folks who have always known a greater proliferation of the books.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89123856635389242712009-07-09T12:49:45.152-04:002009-07-09T12:49:45.152-04:00I will note that those dislikes of mine feature in...I will note that those dislikes of mine feature in a game in which I am (very delightedly) currently a player. There is an element of compromise in what is at heart a social engagement. Losing sight of that seems to me often the root of many problems in campaigns. It takes open and friendly communication and mutual respect to ensure that everyone is on the same page.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2336144349236315552009-07-09T12:40:04.992-04:002009-07-09T12:40:04.992-04:00Gygax, DMG p.110: Now and then a player [-characte...Gygax, DMG p.110: <i>Now and then a player [-character] will die through no fault of his own. He or she will have done everything correctly, taken every reasonable precaution, but still the freakish roll of the dice will kill the character. In the long run you should let such things pass as the players will kill more than one opponent with their own freakish rolls at some later time. Yet you do have the right to arbitrate the situation. You can rule that the player, instead of dying, is knocked unconscious, loses a limb, is blinded in one eye or invoke any reasonably severe penalty that still takes into account what the monster has done. It is very demoralizing to the players to lose a cared-for player character when they have played well. When they have done something stupid or have not taken precautions, then let the dice fall where they may! Again, if you have ample means of raising characters from the dead, even death is not too severe; remember, however, the constitution-based limit to resurrections.</i><br /><br />Short form (I think): Be mindful of the nuances peculiar to your campaign and your players. D&D is not a rigid set of rules, but a framework for cooperative construction of a game suited to the tastes of the participants.<br /><br />As a very basic principle of design, I find a high casualty rate opposed to lengthy character generation. In old D&D, equipping seems the one aspect where there is much room for streamlining.<br /><br />I like the use of henchmen as a way to keep players in the game when primary characters are indisposed -- and the strategic element in using them as replacements for PCs who have perished. I do not like games in which charisma is a "dump stat". YMMV, of course.<br /><br />"Fudging" to a greater extent than Gygax mentioned has never sat well with me. I detest the dishonesty of a DM who <i>pretends</i> to be following rules, effectively transforming players who think they're playing a game into pawns. Far better to my mind is for all to agree to a new set of rules.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59027287288804137522009-07-09T10:20:28.558-04:002009-07-09T10:20:28.558-04:00"That seems a bit harsh. I'd like to thin..."That seems a bit harsh. I'd like to think I'm a pretty high caliber player, but even I have had PCs that have ended up in pretty stupid circumstances and paid the price. Consider the fact that you might be playing a dumb character to begin with."<br /><br />This. I do stupid stuff when I play all the time. Sometimes doing something dumb seems appropriate, sometimes I want to to find out what will happen, and sometimes I just didn't think it through. Whichever way, it's important to be able to admit when you make a boneheaded decision.Big McStrongmusclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07067031012393190130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28243062177024429642009-07-08T17:22:09.741-04:002009-07-08T17:22:09.741-04:00Again, using terms like stupidity instead of perha...<i>Again, using terms like stupidity instead of perhaps more appropriate terms like brave or curious is bullshit. Anybody who needs to do that maybe needs to find a better quality of player, or perhaps check their superior attitude at the game room door.</i><br /><br />That seems a bit harsh. I'd like to think I'm a pretty high caliber player, but even I have had PCs that have ended up in pretty stupid circumstances and paid the price. Consider the fact that you might be playing a dumb character to begin with.<br /><br />I think a distinction should be made between a player's stupidity and the character's. As our group plays, these two are very different things.Jimmy Swillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12549837261062727446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91376374241805714982009-07-08T16:35:23.621-04:002009-07-08T16:35:23.621-04:00I'd be willing to concede that stupidity might...I'd be willing to concede that stupidity might be too harsh a description for what a PC does in seeking adventure, but it sure isn't safe! <br /><br />In my setting, people who are seen as travelling beyond the 20 miles from their homes most folks stay within are definitely odd, maybe crazy. IMO, they'd have to be, civilization is in a dark age and the wilderness is crawling with bears, ogres, and the occasional dragon! Don't even ask about what may have happened to the ruins after centuries of being left to either rot or become the lairs of fiendishly clever kobolds.<br /><br />In some settings, Save or Die Saving throws are the last chance for a character to mitigate the consequences of venturing out into a dangerous world seeking riches, fame, power, thrills, or what have you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13973301663176412762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85149286946446213552009-07-08T16:10:21.230-04:002009-07-08T16:10:21.230-04:00>>You mean the stupidity of taking up a swor...>>You mean the stupidity of taking up a sword and getting into a life of adventure? <br /><br />That's the base assumption I start with about adventurers. There's a reason most people just stay on the farm (or in the market, or whatever).JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1036344334135930182009-07-08T16:01:30.671-04:002009-07-08T16:01:30.671-04:00It's a last chance to mitigate the consequence...It's a last chance to mitigate the consequences of his own stupidity<<br /><br />You mean the stupidity of taking up a sword and getting into a life of adventure? So, don't go anywhere there are spiders or open flames? I'm almost as old school as it gets, but the old school mentality of punishing players for playing still pisses me off. I outgrew it before I was out of high school.<br /><br />I find the attitude of "saves vs. stupidity" condescending and insulting to players in general. Sure, there are a lot of obnoxious douche bag players out there, but in the last 20 years plus I guess I have been blessed with players that don't need that kind of smarmy "DM as God" mentality that gives a lot of us "Imperial in a good way" DM's a poor rep. <br /><br />Again, using terms like stupidity instead of perhaps more appropriate terms like brave or curious is bullshit. Anybody who needs to do that maybe needs to find a better quality of player, or perhaps check their superior attitude at the game room door.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44545734311631041682009-07-08T15:36:44.946-04:002009-07-08T15:36:44.946-04:00James Said: I treat saving throws, by and large, a...James Said: <i>I treat saving throws, by and large, as a kind of check against a player's foolhardiness. It's a last chance to mitigate the consequences of his own stupidity.</i><br /><br />I'm totally down with that, some of the time. <br /><br />Other times, it's a model of Conan's will to resist the terror of the cosmic horror confronting him, or the dominance of his psyche by an enemy wizard.<br /> <br />Still, in other instances, it is Fafhrd and Mouser laughing the laugh of the Elder Gods in the face of Death and the Lord of Necessity.Grumpy Old Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11087904102183244773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82195167654876514062009-07-08T15:10:16.616-04:002009-07-08T15:10:16.616-04:00Indeed, "save or die" is an issue mainly...Indeed, "save or die" is an issue mainly in railroady or High Fantasy campaigns.Santiago Oríahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004778441776946649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27516351687726623222009-07-08T14:46:22.571-04:002009-07-08T14:46:22.571-04:00@ Killgore: If only there WAS a "save versus ...@ Killgore: If only there WAS a "save versus railroad." Ha!<br /><br />Giant spiders should remain scary throughout the life of a campaign, if at all possible...because they're GIANT SPIDERS. How much scarier do you get?!<br /><br />Save versus Poison or die is an example of excellent game mechanics influencing a solid design choice. Keep those spiders coming!JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44424679978685503012009-07-08T14:18:56.179-04:002009-07-08T14:18:56.179-04:00Many players seem to feel they must run into save ...Many players seem to feel they must run into save or die situations and is really not the case, at least in the way I play. <br /><br />The playing skill relies in avoiding the save or die situation altoguether so as not to force the roll.<br /><br />It's challenging and fun. Otherwise every encounter is just a charge into the monsters.Santiago Oríahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004778441776946649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27122448040888279372009-07-08T12:19:48.187-04:002009-07-08T12:19:48.187-04:00Giant spiders caused a total party kill in my camp...Giant spiders caused a total party kill in my campaign once, in a random encounter that was completely optional - see my blog post here http://therecursionking.blogspot.com/2009/05/total-party-kill.html<br /><br />It was a shock but everybody enjoyed the evening regardless and just rolled up a bunch of new characters in the next session and carried on. I think they've learned not to mess with giant spiders now because recently the party were near a heavily cobwebbed room in a ruined citadel and avoided entering it!Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29407368296197020032009-07-08T11:48:23.742-04:002009-07-08T11:48:23.742-04:00I like this turn of relating how we treat this iss...I like this turn of relating how we treat this issue in our own games, so I'd like to pitch in. <br /><br />In my game there are save or die effects, and it only involves certain traps or attacks where I consider the threat of death as a reasonable outcome. If the party is going after giant cobras or didn't take the time to look for that one-ton stone block trap at the entrance, I think it's reasonable to give them the save, but if they fail, they're toast. Instant death is rare (hasn't happened yet) and is based off a tighter range of reasonable circumstances, like Kilgore's cliff scenario, or coups de grace on a completely helpless charater with an appropriately deadly weapon. It depends greatly on my judgement, so I take my decisions on how to treat an effect with care. I'm not out to mess with the party, but I'm not out to make it easy either. I told them up front my world is a dangerous place, and it would be a disservice to the setting to not emulate that in game.<br /><br />To compensate for the danger, my players roll up a new charcter with 1/2 the xp of the prior and I get back into the game as soon as is humanly possible, even if it may seem a little odd. I use the Basic Fantasy RPG, so a new character can pop up in as little as 10-15 minutes. My setting also involves the slim possibility of divine intervention (can only be done rarely, and has less than a 5% chance of success unless you're a high-level cleric or have sacrificed and donated much to the god in question). I was shocked the one time it did work, but then again, that's the fun in rolling the dice, you can never know what will happen.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13973301663176412762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27352811637530709432009-07-08T09:08:33.373-04:002009-07-08T09:08:33.373-04:00I find that save or die effects work just fine, pr...I find that save or die effects work just fine, provided they are not a 'zap' effect. Death by yellow mold or green slime is fine - Any seasoned player knows that touching that stuff is like playing with fire. Walking down a random corridor to get nailed by an invisible magic death trap that you couldn't *possibly* have known was there? That's just pointlessly harsh.<br /><br />I like to use save-or-die effects as a hazard the players bring on themselves by fiddling with things, rather than as an attack that gets inflicted on them uncontrollably. This is partly a learning experience from the first (and so far, only) TPK that I ever DMed, back in 1995 or so. Turns out AD&D wyverns are considerably nastier than their Hit Dice would indicate. C'est la vie.<br /><br />Generally these days, I instead have low-level save-or-die monster attacks deal ongoing poison damage (with a save each round) until either the character makes three consecutive saves or someone hits him up with a Slow/Neutralize Poison spell. That way you actually have time to cast such a spell, too. I relegate Real save-or-die effects to big deathtraps (not just some sissy poisoned needle) and "trap monsters" like green slime.<br /><br />As for Death Spell? At that level of play, if a dead character is a game-breaking problem, something is horribly horribly wrong.<br /><br />I also think that a lot of the hate against save-or-lose effects in D&D (of which save-or-die is a tiny subset) comes from the longer and longer amounts of time it takes to run a combat round. Combat is 3.x in particular tended to take up to 2-3 hours, and while 4e is a teensy bit faster, it's not faster enough. Someone who gets sleeped or held, say, could potentially be out of the game for hours. When the fight you died in only lasted 5 minutes, you were less likely to mind missing it because you were at least busy rolling up a new character.Big McStrongmusclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07067031012393190130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34923582975504595612009-07-08T08:58:48.989-04:002009-07-08T08:58:48.989-04:00"The thief, Black Leaf, did not find the pois..."The thief, Black Leaf, did not find the poison trap and I DECLARE HER DEAD!"<br /><br />Okay, so the "NO save AND die" should be used very sparingly. :)<br /><br />The "save OR die" doesn't really have a huge impact on low-level characters, as melee with giant spiders could kill them whether or not the spiders are poisonous.<br /><br />But the "save vs. poison or die" keeps the fear of sudden death a factor for characters with more hit points. Sure, level drain is considered a fearsome attack (no save, incidentally), but a giant spider can KILL your PC dead in one round if you roll bad.<br /><br />Some have suggested huge hit point damages instead of death, or maybe making the death non-instantaneous. Both of these are fine, but they lessen the impact of "death could be around the next corner."<br /><br />I use a mix of all of them, making some poisons take a few rounds to work, making some poisons deal hit point damage. But most poisons still kill on contact.<br /><br />I've never used a "you're dead, no save" except for things like falls from mountain cliffs (where they had already been given a chance not to fall) and one shameful incident where the plot required someone die (there's no save vs. railroad, as far as I could tell at the time).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65255523855537261632009-07-08T08:52:52.414-04:002009-07-08T08:52:52.414-04:00One of the more irritating "save or ____"...One of the more irritating "save or ____" effects that I experienced in 3rd Edition was "Save vs Fear". In one instance, it meant that for something like 8 rounds I didn't have control over my character, who ran aimlessly away from the battle with the beholder or whatever it was. <br /><br />Combat length in 3rd (and 4th edition, for that matter) is insane. Having one or more players be effectively removed from a 2 hour chunk of a session is a really shitty game mechanic, no matter how you slice it. <br /><br />I remember wishing he'd died and I could start working on a new character who might stumble onto the battle, but of course, as others have already said, the time you have to spend building a character has increased dramatically from the early days.<br /><br />Gygax's idea of there always being some chance, no matter how small, of a character doing something extraordinary is well-taken--one of the things I like about 4E (and there aren't many) is the fact that you get to make a save every round to shake off effects like fear or poison. Of course, to accomplish that they had to change poison to "ongoing 5 damage" and fear to "-2 to your attacks", making it difficult to figure out exactly how "poison" can affect a character for only 2 rounds(12 seconds) before being shrugged off (by a heroic constitution--oh, wait, that attribute doesn't factor into it, it's just a 10+ on d20). <br /> <br />Personally, I like the "save or die" because it reinforces the notion that the world is dangerous--let the dice fall where they may. <br /><br />Then again, my favorite board game is Dungeonquest, where I keep a long list of the characters who have perished playing it in the box. I think even in the rule book they say that a player has about a 30% chance of making it out alive (though I've found that figure to be rather generous).Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04801368017461881806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50648970320369514712009-07-08T08:32:19.735-04:002009-07-08T08:32:19.735-04:00I'm a big fan of "Save or Die Slowly"...I'm a big fan of "Save or Die Slowly"<br /><br />In a situation where the save would normally = death it becomes a steady drumbeat of damage until death. This way the other players don't just ignore the dead guy, they can't he'<br />s sitting there at the table making a whole heck of a lot of noise.<br /><br />For this to work really well there should be some effects with a steady drumbeat of damage that don't' kill all the time.JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38132604761712541792009-07-08T07:48:26.171-04:002009-07-08T07:48:26.171-04:00BTW there sure are a lot of comments on Grognardia...BTW there sure are a lot of comments on Grognardia these days, aren't there? This must be a very high-traffic blog!Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33250876777234845892009-07-08T05:33:58.404-04:002009-07-08T05:33:58.404-04:00Re MMORPGs - the one with permanent death will be ...Re MMORPGs - the one with permanent death will be the one that gets my business. I really can't stand the feel of existing MMORPGs where you just 'respawn' on death. I'd much rather play Ancient Domains of Mystery where death is permanent.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57371074046389295152009-07-08T00:32:21.893-04:002009-07-08T00:32:21.893-04:00* Save or Die: Yes
* No Save: Yes
* Save for Half:...* Save or Die: Yes<br />* No Save: Yes<br />* Save for Half: Yes<br /><br />People wear armour and carry spare magazines of ammunition, AND have medkits because bothering people who own weapons is dangerous.<br /><br />How much more so is going into a monster-infested deathtrap for the sole purpose of looting the place?<br /><br />Saves are a privilege, not a right.Timeshadowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09952601433965644275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47982697074247874512009-07-07T23:10:49.452-04:002009-07-07T23:10:49.452-04:00Im going to go directly and say I like two seeming...Im going to go directly and say I like two seemingly different game goals. I like the high risk of Character death, and I like more "crunchy" character mechanics. But just that doesn't mean I have to choose one or the other (or have dead players sit out of the game). Any problem can be solved with good mechanics design in my mind. In my case I use "Schrodinger's Characters" so someone with a dead character can get immediately back into the gameplay and still have an indepth "crunchy" character.<br /><br />The joy of RPG's is that there is no style of game you can't have if you aren't afraid to change the rules to fit.Zzarchovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07714805545939725730noreply@blogger.com