tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5440654149334715474..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Of Goblins and Pig-Faced OrcsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11153699108872679362012-08-23T00:47:31.814-04:002012-08-23T00:47:31.814-04:00Of course, as per Tolkein, orc was simply the elvi...Of course, as per Tolkein, orc was simply the elvish name for goblins, so Gygax was wrong to create them as seperate species...cr8383942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55791773115336163152008-12-09T09:31:00.000-05:002008-12-09T09:31:00.000-05:00Sounds like Gygax was more interested in creating ...<I>Sounds like Gygax was more interested in creating level titles for humanoids than worrying about naturalism or credibility.</I><BR/><BR/>Almost certainly. I think it's a mistake to ascribe any single motive to most of the design decisions in <I>D&D</I>. In the case of the many humanoid species, I think Gary had many motives, including providing a continuing "ladder" of challenges for players, so that there were humanoids for every stage of their level advancement. At the same time, in the context of Gary's campaign, he generally tried to contextualize and provide an explanation (of sorts) for what could be found therein, even if the explanation only amounted to "it's magic!"James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72694096845437769602008-12-07T06:57:00.000-05:002008-12-07T06:57:00.000-05:00Isn't that what RQ III did with its (non-Glorantha...<I>Isn't that what RQ III did with its (non-Gloranthan) version of orcs?</I><BR/><BR/>Quite possibly, but my memory of other game systems that did this keeps springing back to The Fantasy Trip as the earliest known example. Come to think of it, the goblins there were also noted potion-crafters. For the life of me I can't think of an Ur source that might have influenced both of us though; I put it down to convergent evolution.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33154095537706011542008-12-07T03:54:00.000-05:002008-12-07T03:54:00.000-05:00"To correspond with the 8 levels of fighters ..."To correspond with the 8 levels of fighters in the original D&D game I decided upon eight levels of humanoids--kobolds, goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, ogres, trolls."<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://unclehyena.livejournal.com/214973.html" REL="nofollow">The Gnoll Interview</A><BR/><BR/>Sounds like Gygax was more interested in creating level titles for humanoids than worrying about naturalism or credibility.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55628687214400127962008-12-06T18:35:00.000-05:002008-12-06T18:35:00.000-05:00Wow. I feel really old.If it helps, I only just tu...<I>Wow. I feel really old.</I><BR/>If it helps, I only just turned 18 two days ago, so it's less that you should feel old and more that I should feel really young, 'cause I think I was 10 when fellowship came out.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32687735810570061222008-12-06T12:30:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:30:00.000-05:00Thanks, James! Someone sent me the Enworld conver...Thanks, James! Someone sent me the Enworld conversation -- or at least the parts relevant to Orcs -- a while back. Here it is:<BR/><BR/>Henrix asked: "I wanted to ask you about the old illustrations of the pig-snouted orcs and asian-looking hobgoblins. Is it true they were inspired by the Minifigs miniatures, or was it the other way 'round?" <BR/><BR/>Gary responded on 3-13-07: <B>As I recollect, Dave Sutherland, rest his soul, did the hog-faced orcs and the hobgoblins in samurai-like armor. Minifigs worked from those illustrations.</B><BR/><BR/>In response to that answer, John Drake asked: "Interesting, I wondered about that too. A related question: is that how you personally imagined orcs etc, to look like or did you have a completely different conception of how such creatures were to look?" <BR/><BR/>Gary responded on 3-13-07: <B>"Actually I envisioned the D&D game orcs ase porcine in appearancem but not actually pig faced--more like largfe, upturned noses and small tushes jutting from their mouths, heavy bodies and small, pig-live eyes. Hobgoblins I saw as apish in visage and build."</B> <BR/><BR/>Here's the link: http://www.enworld.org/printthread.php?t=171753&page=25&pp=30 <BR/><BR/>In response to that answer, Henry asked: "So in other words, Orcs as portrayed on the D&D cartoon would have been kind of close to the mark?" <BR/><BR/>Gary responded on 3-16-07: <B>"Actually, those D&D Cartoon Show orcs were a bit too porcine like in my view, but they did match up pretty well with the orcs in the MM."</B> <BR/><BR/>In response, Sir Elton said: "Gammorean Guards in Jaba's Palace in Return of the Jedi squealed in fear or in excitement. They had the porcine, hog like faces. Ugly brutes too." <BR/><BR/>Gary responded on 3-19-07: <B>"I envisooned D&D orcs as more human looking, but those Gammorean Guards would certainly make do..."</B> <BR/><BR/>Here's the link: http://www.enworld.org/printthread.php?t=171753&page=26&pp=30<BR/><BR/>Thanks, again :)Scott Odenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17917296669418463518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55210394796736720622008-12-06T12:26:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:26:00.000-05:00Orcs on the other hand, were actually a different ...<I>Orcs on the other hand, were actually a different species of human, much as neanderthals were in our world.</I><BR/><BR/>Isn't that what RQ III did with its (non-Gloranthan) version of orcs?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51227208876781947132008-12-06T12:25:00.001-05:002008-12-06T12:25:00.001-05:00Ork means pig, and it was the 'Isle of Pigs'Though...<I>Ork means pig, and it was the 'Isle of Pigs'</I><BR/><BR/>Though true, I wonder how much influence that had over Gygax and/or Dave Sutherland.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39887801397022486222008-12-06T12:25:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:25:00.000-05:00Who were the Thulians responsible for creating? It...<I>Who were the Thulians responsible for creating? It looks like the Eld are getting them all.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, it does. What I had planned to do was to introduce some more weird and "specialized" humanoids in Dwimmermount that were experiments of the Thulians that extended the work of the Eld. <BR/><BR/><I>Who cursed the ogres? Is it known, is there any chance of redemption?</I><BR/><BR/>Since they're cursed humans and only humans have gods, I think they're likely responsible. As for redemption, I am open to the possibility, but no one, at the start of the campaign, will have ever heard of its having happened with any plausibility.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31831430884452273042008-12-06T12:20:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:20:00.000-05:00Probably because my first orcs were those in Peter...<I>Probably because my first orcs were those in Peter Jackson's adaptation of LOTR.</I><BR/><BR/>Wow. I feel really old.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32431557337702028612008-12-06T12:19:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:19:00.000-05:00Now I think James has a point: the ecology of fict...<I>Now I think James has a point: the ecology of fiction is different from that of reality</I><BR/><BR/>That's really all I meant by my comment.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88707023227694901372008-12-06T12:18:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:18:00.000-05:00One of the things I enjoy best about D&D is th...<I>One of the things I enjoy best about D&D is that it both hearkens back to our own mythologies and can still create completely new/original ones.</I><BR/><BR/>And one of the strengths of the game is that it's possible to continue to create completely new/original mythologies with a minimum of tweaking. I've been enjoying re-imagining classic monsters in ways that harken back to the original presentations of them while also bringing something new to the table.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43465210769326342992008-12-06T12:16:00.001-05:002008-12-06T12:16:00.001-05:00That, and a rules example states that their mouths...<I>That, and a rules example states that their mouths are big enough to throw a potion bottle into.</I><BR/><BR/>I must have missed that one. Where is it?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89694819659211878202008-12-06T12:16:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:16:00.000-05:00Your dwarves spring asexually out of rock, right? ...<I>Your dwarves spring asexually out of rock, right? Could trolls come from a different rock, or from rock closer to the roiling chaos? Or could they be Eld-experimented dwarves?</I><BR/><BR/>I like the roiling chaos idea.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35467409148105239472008-12-06T12:15:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:15:00.000-05:00Did you ever read Julian May's rationale for elves...<I>Did you ever read Julian May's rationale for elves/goblins in his Many Colored Land series?</I><BR/><BR/>I have not.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53163379915264352302008-12-06T11:39:00.000-05:002008-12-06T11:39:00.000-05:00You wouldn't happen to have a citation for this, w...<I>You wouldn't happen to have a citation for this, would you?</I><BR/><BR/>I can't find the original, lengthier post, which seems to have been swallowed up by the ether, but I did find a cached comment in which Gygax explains, "Actually I envisioned the D&D game orcs ase porcine in appearancem but not actually pig faced--more like largfe, upturned noses and small tushes jutting from their mouths, heavy bodies and small, pig-live eyes."<BR/><BR/>That's from here: http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:8fZ9m2uNaQwJ:www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D171753%26page%3D25+pig+faced+orc+gygax+dave+sutherland&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=ca&client=firefox-a<BR/><BR/>I'll keep looking for a more specific citation beyond that, though.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91336106431981746822008-12-06T07:34:00.000-05:002008-12-06T07:34:00.000-05:00Interesting. I had the goblins (thoroughly evil b...Interesting. I had the goblins (thoroughly evil bastards) in my old campaign breed the hobgoblins as shock troops and bodyguards (using human women as breeding stock for the initial runs as some players eventually found out). But the goblins were firmly in control (due to their mastery of potions and pain weapons). Bugbears were an attempt to make super-hobgoblins through applied potioncraft. Kobolds, who were a stunted offshoot of goblinkind (probably because they were not evil), usually ended up as slaves of whichever Big Bad (or Big Good for that matter) was around. [However in tribute to Brian Asbury's game column <I>The Incredible 30th Level Kobold</I> the highest level character in my campaign was, in fact, a 30th level Paladin Kobold.]<BR/><BR/>Orcs on the other hand, were actually a different species of human, much as neanderthals were in our world.<BR/><BR/>YMMVReverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37376113183948727202008-12-06T05:47:00.000-05:002008-12-06T05:47:00.000-05:00I've always been of the mind that the 'pig ork' ca...I've always been of the mind that the 'pig ork' came from the Orkney Isles over here. Ork means pig, and it was the 'Isle of Pigs' The Drow come from there too.Brendan Falconerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05981719537527659745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76224423231673265592008-12-06T01:23:00.000-05:002008-12-06T01:23:00.000-05:00This brings me to pig-faced orcs. Again, Gary clai...<I>This brings me to pig-faced orcs. Again, Gary claimed that the pig-faced version was the result of another miscommunication with his artists</I><BR/><BR/>You wouldn't happen to have a citation for this, would you? I've been trying to unravel the mystery of how Orcs got their pig-faced makeover. The earliest, definitive picture of D&D Orcs with pig-snouts is the iconic Sutherland image from the Monster Manual (1977). But, there's a painting from the '76 Bros. Hildebrandt Tolkien calendar (which bears a copyright date of '74) depicting a pig-snouted and rather reptilian Ugluk and Grishnakh arguing over Merry and Pippin. If the dates are correct, Gary's artist seems to have taken his cues from the Hildebrandts.<BR/><BR/>Here's the image: http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/captured.jpg<BR/><BR/>I'm a big 'ol Orc geek :)Scott Odenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17917296669418463518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75559344988362342322008-12-05T20:36:00.000-05:002008-12-05T20:36:00.000-05:00Now I think James has a point: the ecology of fict...<I>Now I think James has a point: the ecology of fiction is different from that of reality....</I><BR/><BR/>That's my take on it. The problem really isn't one of verisimilitude, but of narrative. After a while it gets a bit silly (not unnecessarily unrealistic, mind):<BR/><BR/>FRED: Hey look! It's some goblins!<BR/><BR/>CHARLEY: No, wait. It's approximately 6 feet tall; must be a hobgoblin.<BR/><BR/>FRED: Maybe. But look at the shape of the skull. Might be a small bugbear.<BR/><BR/>CHARLEY: But it isn't furry, so it must be an ogre.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Whereas the reaction should generally be:<BR/><BR/>FRED: Hey look! It's some monsters!<BR/><BR/>CHARLEY: Come on, we should run away.Matthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27609386990791841592008-12-05T19:48:00.000-05:002008-12-05T19:48:00.000-05:00Who were the Thulians responsible for creating? It...Who were the Thulians responsible for creating? It looks like the Eld are getting them all.<BR/><BR/>Who cursed the ogres? Is it known, is there any chance of redemption?K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30442230061749890102008-12-05T16:19:00.000-05:002008-12-05T16:19:00.000-05:00Eugh, pig-orcs.I dunno, something about the pig-or...Eugh, pig-orcs.<BR/>I dunno, something about the pig-orc thing just strikes me as being wrong, somehow.<BR/>Probably because my first orcs were those in Peter Jackson's adaptation of LOTR.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83712759249633154072008-12-05T16:01:00.000-05:002008-12-05T16:01:00.000-05:00the variously coloured Men of Barsoomoops: too fas...<I>the variously coloured Men of Barsoom</I><BR/>oops: too fast on the <I>publish</I> button again. I meant to say, Green and Red have an ecology we understand, but the others (IIRC) lack meaningful niches: Blue, Yellow and Black (and maybe others) are really curiosities, not prime movers of stories, because they aren't very active as agents - they don't have roles relative to Barsoom's other inhabitants.<BR/><BR/>Caveat: it's a while since I last read the Barsoom books, I crave your indulgence if this is simply wrong, please translate to your own favourite example of an also-ran narrative type.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58883891093520867762008-12-05T15:56:00.000-05:002008-12-05T15:56:00.000-05:00This will cause your faux reality to burst at the ...<I>This will cause your faux reality to burst at the seams.</I><BR/>...although it could be nice to have multiple ways of viewing/presenting/expecting a monster, and for the players not to know if it's one thing or the other until they encounter it. That might be a mechanism for getting a bit of mystery back.<BR/><BR/><I> it strains credibility</I><BR/>I initially had the same reaction as others about this, thinking about real humanoids, not to mention beetles. Now I think James has a point: the ecology of fiction is different from that of reality, and having meaningful interactions between the creatures is probably the key to making them meaningful (cf. the variously coloured Men of Barsoom: Green and Red are locked in endless conflict, like nomad and fellah/Indian and cowboy). Assigning them military functions is one way to do it, another might be savannah-ecology, of top predator, helper predator, scavenger etc. Are there other ways? Craftsman, broker, labourer? Gambler, loan-shark, enforcer?richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29695424084236473682008-12-05T15:44:00.000-05:002008-12-05T15:44:00.000-05:00Ripper X: It's true that all these monsters come f...Ripper X: It's true that all these monsters come from human myths, but <I>they do not all come from the same myth</I>. For example, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds etc are conceptually different names for the same thing: the evil humanoid monster. Every myth has such a monster, but usually not more than one. Being a union of many myths, D&D has all of them and has thus tried to differentiate them. In Tolkein's myth, for example, "goblin" and "orc" are actual synonyms.<BR/><BR/>The variuos D&D MMs contains monsters you would <I>not</I> expect to find side-to-side in an authentic myth (say a hydra and a turtle dragon, or a cockatrice and a konold). This is because every D&D campaign is its own manufactured myth. Nevertheless it doesn't mean that you should use all the monsters at the same time. This will cause your faux reality to burst at the seams.Liorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15563497907340566955noreply@blogger.com