tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5535958646977184470..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Retrospective: DiplomacyJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91820378414191991342011-01-29T13:34:03.985-05:002011-01-29T13:34:03.985-05:00I do find it odd that you don't seem to think ...<i>I do find it odd that you don't seem to think you'd have the "patience and strategic level thought" for wargames...just seeing the work and detail you put into Dwimmermount would seem to belie that statement.</i><br /><br>I'm a good improviser and have a decent memory, that's all. I don't mean to minimize their value, especially when refereeing a sandbox campaign, but I don't think my talents as a referee translate very well to wargaming. Past experience bears out the truth of this; I'm really not very good at them.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65720684696309429002011-01-29T13:31:59.520-05:002011-01-29T13:31:59.520-05:00James, have you played MtG?
No. I avoided CCGs lik...<i>James, have you played MtG?</i><br /><br>No. I avoided CCGs like the plague back in the 90s, out of fear I'd get hooked and blow lots of time and money on them and I've never regretted that decision.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50936190740421294442011-01-29T13:31:10.564-05:002011-01-29T13:31:10.564-05:00Playing Diplomacy without social incident requires...<i>Playing Diplomacy without social incident requires people to be able to very firmly compartmentalize because so much of the game requires management that level of meta-gaming that lies just above the surface of the table. Diplomacy is cunningly designed to piss off two kinds of gamers: those who don't want overt, player interaction in their games (or want it muted) AND those who demand that "players always play the table situation to win" (i.e. always make the emotionless, "optimal move").. The game, as written, encourages players to reject either of these approaches (in fact, practically demands it), and I can see easily why it creates such nasty play experiences amongst people.</i><br /><br>Very well said.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-17578478331693986912011-01-29T13:30:33.770-05:002011-01-29T13:30:33.770-05:00James, have you seen this game I am working on cal...<i>James, have you seen this game I am working on called Statecraft?</i><br /><br>I have not, but I'll try and take a look at the blog sometime soon.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36695480341606188672011-01-27T19:17:59.522-05:002011-01-27T19:17:59.522-05:00'increased demands of work':
this also con...'increased demands of work':<br />this also contributes to people not wanting to play a sustained game, I've found.<br /><br />'they frequently comment on how little in comparison their own fathers did or were expected to do.'<br />8-|. Wow, my grandad worked 60+ hour weeks voluntarily as a bricklayer, helped around the house, took care of us(and we were allowed a great deal of freedom[stupidity would bring punishment, though :-)] to do whatever, glorious!), and still had time to hang out with his friends.(Mostly on the weekends.) I believe it was because he was able to make his own schedule(and his employers seemed very respectful, as well; in may ways I don't see that type of relationship anymore.), as he subcontracted for larger construction businesses. I'm holding out hope for leisure time to be prioritized again, myself.velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55767870772184480322011-01-27T17:49:52.204-05:002011-01-27T17:49:52.204-05:00About leisure time shrinkage: in addition to incre...About leisure time shrinkage: in addition to increased demands of work, I wonder too if 21st century adult males with wives & kids are just expected to spend a LOT more time supervising kids, ferrying them too and from their after-school activities, and doing household chores then was the case back "in the day.". <br /><br />I know at lunch, when the guys bemoan how little personal time they have, they frequently comment on how little in comparison their own fathers did or were expected to do.JBMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13915780514486101083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29265895111626406832011-01-27T11:15:34.144-05:002011-01-27T11:15:34.144-05:00Diplomacy has ruined more friendships than anythin...Diplomacy has ruined more friendships than anything else on earth. It should be banned.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-16922104295007722912011-01-27T10:22:29.837-05:002011-01-27T10:22:29.837-05:00UWS guy wrote: “Interesting question, is magic the...UWS guy wrote: “<i>Interesting question, is magic the gathering a war-game and would 4e be a better game if it incorporated more of MtG 'large scale'/dominion type rules and not just the synergy of combat/deck building abilities that classes use together in an adventuring group.</i>”<br /><br />Although I have played both MtG and 4e, I’m not much of a fan of either, I’m not sure I should say much about that. But I don’t think either qualifies as a wargame even in my own rather broad definition.<br /><br />merricb wrote: “<i>Time is a killer these days; one occasionally wonders at the LONG older games and wonder why life has changed so much... how were they able to play them then and we can't play them now?</i>”<br /><br />There’s that as communication technology has developed, we seem to devote more time to it. There’s that we have many more options for on-demand entertainment. There’s that our kids seem to have busier schedules—that we as parents have to keep up with—than we did.<br /><br />I don’t know that it was really all that much easier then, though. It can still be done. Plus, we have tools like eVite that can help a lot in organizing such things.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25508283458543732022011-01-27T08:42:07.543-05:002011-01-27T08:42:07.543-05:00Diplomacy always was hit or miss, as I recall. I ...Diplomacy always was hit or miss, as I recall. I was a Risk guy, myself. Politics by other means and all that!<br />@uwarr:<br />The poster(mericcb) was referring to adults like Arneson, Gygax, Andre, and Arneson having time to play Diplomacy and the like.(See Gygax and crew's epic D&D sessions as well.) I'd say that the difference is the employer's demands on your time(flex scheduling, mandated overtime, etc..) and the willingness(or desperation) of today's workers to meet them. Not to mention, there are more options now, and a seeming shortness of attention span(Speed Monopoly? Really? Turbo Bridge? :-)) that comes with the proliferation of same. Kind of worrisome, imo. I'd like to think things will work out. Leisure time is important for development. And fun!velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14110396403473488932011-01-27T01:57:20.362-05:002011-01-27T01:57:20.362-05:00You know, you could keep a side page right here, p...You know, you could keep a side page right here, post photographs of the board each turn, and conduct all backstabbing and brokering in comments. . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36152870264211649762011-01-26T22:46:56.166-05:002011-01-26T22:46:56.166-05:00I haven't looked at the rules in a while but I...<i>I haven't looked at the rules in a while but IIRC the 2-player rules turn the game into a two-way WWI slugfest. Basically straight wargame with no need for diplomacy.</i><br /><br />I'll have to go to their website and check out the two-player rules. This sounds far more interesting than the four to five hour snorfest I remember.uwarrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14317203334211498424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56249241077237068192011-01-26T22:00:06.138-05:002011-01-26T22:00:06.138-05:00I haven't looked at the rules in a while but I...I haven't looked at the rules in a while but IIRC the 2-player rules turn the game into a two-way WWI slugfest. Basically straight wargame with no need for diplomacy.JBMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13915780514486101083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30940714937377122622011-01-26T21:07:48.076-05:002011-01-26T21:07:48.076-05:00Here's a good online site to play. Be prepare...Here's a good online site to play. Be prepared to spend oodles of time here.<br /><br />http://www.playdiplomacy.com/index.phpBuster Bluthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16618112768695716860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44197279478979193622011-01-26T20:48:30.182-05:002011-01-26T20:48:30.182-05:00My wife and I once went to a highly romantic b&...My wife and I once went to a highly romantic b&b in an idyllic locale... and I noticed amidst the checkers and romance novels on the shelves next to the roaring fireplace: a Diplomacy game.<br /><br />Sadly, I and the nerd on the couch before the fireplace could not convince our wives to get a game going.<br /><br />It's one of the most out of place things I've ever seen, that Diplomacy game. They may as well have had a pistol for nice Russian roulette games.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5268514634029882952011-01-26T20:12:00.576-05:002011-01-26T20:12:00.576-05:00I love this game (and so does, apparently, Henry K...I love this game (and so does, apparently, Henry Kissinger). Great game. No luck involved. <br /><br />I like Civilization from Avalon Hill slightly more since it has a greater scope of challenge and can involve a 'Diplomacy' angle as well.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08863118245243138750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8613590110152203942011-01-26T19:40:21.280-05:002011-01-26T19:40:21.280-05:00For some reason Diplomacy and Squad Leader were ju...For some reason Diplomacy and Squad Leader were just part of the RPG milieu back in the 80s for people I knew. I remember sitting in a small basement room with five or six people playing Diplomacy. It seemed more of an event, and I guess that was because you needed a quorum to play it.brasspenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00740202895575678193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44443310612078408052011-01-26T18:37:27.587-05:002011-01-26T18:37:27.587-05:00To this day I run the Diplomacy tournament at the ...To this day I run the Diplomacy tournament at the local convention, but alas, the last couple of years nobody has expressed an interest. The newfangled games of today have overtaken it, it seems. <br /><br />Doesn't make me love it any less. I'd be up for a PBeM game.Greyhawk Grognardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13929743865700766901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-92198353409637405892011-01-26T16:51:30.586-05:002011-01-26T16:51:30.586-05:00In the version I have, published in 1976, the game...In the version I have, published in 1976, the game is billed for 4-7 players. The modern version is billed for 2-7 players. I can only wonder what changes were made to make it playable for 2, and kudos, I suppose, to Avalon Hill for recognizing the unfeasibility of getting 4-7 players together.<br /><br />I share radnoff's view. Diplomacy isn't a game I was fond of, and it was quickly relegated to the fourth division after a few plays. <br /><br />@merrich <i>one occasionally wonders at the LONG older games and wonder why life has changed so much... how were they able to play them then and we can't play them now?</i><br /><br />Copious amounts of free time as a young teen who was too young to drive, work, or do much of anything else except get together with a few friends in the neighborhood.uwarrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14317203334211498424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82308901111937551202011-01-26T16:39:56.622-05:002011-01-26T16:39:56.622-05:00I adored Diplomacy, but haven't played in year...I adored Diplomacy, but haven't played in years. My fondest moment came in a game where I finished 3rd as Italy (Hey, for Italy that is a major victory!), in the process of which I helped England dismember France. Ah, good times. At least, until the Russian shafted me over Vienna.... :)Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45301950979639387902011-01-26T15:41:36.999-05:002011-01-26T15:41:36.999-05:00@Ariston: Caylus is a totally deterministic Euroga...@Ariston: Caylus is a totally deterministic Eurogame. So are Steam and Niagara. And Endeavor and Imperial.<br /><br />Imperial is interesting: it is Diplomacy turned into a Eurogame! In so doing, you lose most of the Diplomacy and instead it becomes something else. (You're bankers lending money to the nations of WW1; whoever has lent the most money controls the nation...) Very interesting game.<br /><br />I played quite a bit of Diplomacy when I was at high school and later University, but not for many, many years. The number of players required and the time requirement are prohibitive - especially once you add the cutthroat nature of the game, which drops the available number of players...<br /><br />Time is a killer these days; one occasionally wonders at the LONG older games and wonder why life has changed so much... how were they able to play them then and we can't play them now?<br /><br />Not all classic Avalon Hill-era boardgames have managed to hold up that well. I think Republic of Rome (recently reprinted by Valley Games, and a good player negotiation game) still holds up well, but Kingmaker, though with a great midgame, has a horrible endgame where your best strategy is to turtle and not do anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90131838599529889792011-01-26T15:34:55.198-05:002011-01-26T15:34:55.198-05:00Ah, Diplomacy. A most beautiful game that I am ut...Ah, Diplomacy. A most beautiful game that I am utterly unable to play. "Naivete and lack of skill" are what I have in abundance, so I was always eliminated early without even the consolation of a Risk-mad-berserker exit.Bob Portnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04563075580066984380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27260012290930957952011-01-26T15:15:13.765-05:002011-01-26T15:15:13.765-05:00Haven't played Diplomacy in a long time...the ...Haven't played Diplomacy in a long time...the simple matter of finding 5-7 players with time available and the willingness to completely stab others in the back and carry on life otherwise as normal is always a challenge. <br /><br />I've always wanted to play the game with some quality facial hair...waxed moustaches and the like, for maximum authenticty. I never could grow one back in the day...I'm not sure I could now...<br /><br />I do find it odd that you don't seem to think you'd have the "patience and strategic level thought" for wargames...just seeing the work and detail you put into Dwimmermount would seem to belie that statement.Coldstreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16140235342917611032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62911983605390143012011-01-26T15:08:00.546-05:002011-01-26T15:08:00.546-05:00How much fun Diplomacy is depends a lot on who is ...How much fun Diplomacy is depends a lot on who is playing. Because it is so exquisitely balanced, if you get two people who are willing to make a stable alliance -- let's say, one regular gamer and a casual player recruited to fill out the game -- you can have a game that is unbalanced from the start and a bore to play.Matthew Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04905727799828366356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39876532654637436262011-01-26T14:19:18.616-05:002011-01-26T14:19:18.616-05:00I was introduced to Diplomacy by my Grade 12 histo...I was introduced to Diplomacy by my Grade 12 history teacher; and like Alan above, it remains one of my strongest school memories.<br /><br />My gaming group played a fair bit of 4/5-player Diplomacy back in the late '80s. There were a couple of fanatic fans, and a few who were okay with it, but we stopped playing when one player - burned and betrayed once too often - solemnly swore he'd rather have his fingernails slowly removed then ever play Diplomacy again.<br /><br />As a junior high teacher I've used Diplomacy most years as part of the Games Club. Some years it gets really popular ... but I do get the kids to sign a note acknowledging that they it's a game where their smiling friends will probably figuratively shove a knife in their back. <br /><br />It's definitely NOT a game I run in years where Games Club members start off with deep seated internal animosities! In those cases Risk is bad enough ... shudder.JBMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13915780514486101083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33080011519316406012011-01-26T13:48:38.558-05:002011-01-26T13:48:38.558-05:00@robert fischer
Interesting question, is magic t...@robert fischer <br /><br />Interesting question, is magic the gathering a war-game and would 4e be a better game if it incorporated more of MtG 'large scale'/dominion type rules and not just the synergy of combat/deck building abilities that classes use together in an adventuring group. <br /><br />I think I would have liked 4e better if it included this aspect. James, have you played MtG?UWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.com