tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post56717868154997484..comments2024-03-19T07:56:00.031-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Pulp Fantasy Library: ImaroJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3355699449882885742009-08-03T12:44:18.027-04:002009-08-03T12:44:18.027-04:00I disagree strongly with Joshua on his assessment ...I disagree strongly with Joshua on his assessment of the books, though it's important to realize that Joshua comes from a conservative Mormon background while I'm nonreligious, so we have pretty different viewpoints.<br /><br />I disagree with the "ethnologue" comment in particular - the cultures are just fleshed out enough for the reader to accept them as believable.<br /><br />One of the things I liked the most about this book was the dimensionality of the secondary characters, as well as the importance of human groups. Most fantasy protagonists are loners, but Imaro is a much more believable loner because his story relies so much on the relationships between different human tribes.Matthew McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953220371311903744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1579547355756532672009-04-07T17:17:00.000-04:002009-04-07T17:17:00.000-04:00Wow, I couldn't disagree more with the assessment ...Wow, I couldn't disagree more with the assessment you give of the Imaro books and Saunders. I read them (after the fact) from the new Nightshade reprints, and I barely got through them, honestly. I thought his agenda was rather ham-handed, Imaro was a flat, unlikeable, cardboard character (yes, even compared to Conan) and the entire series felt like a cheap excuse for Saunders to show off the fact that he'd done some research on anthropology in Africa. The stories themselves were always second-place to showcasing the setting. Some of them read more like mini-ethnologues rather than fantasy stories.<BR/><BR/>I mean, they weren't <I>terrible</I> per se, but I found more and more as I read them that the fact that they never sold very well was readily apparent from the quality of the writing, not from mishandling of the text by the publisher, as hinted in the introduction.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14818417660371311222009-03-25T04:41:00.000-04:002009-03-25T04:41:00.000-04:00I've read most of the REH originals, in the 'Fanta...I've read most of the REH originals, in the 'Fantasy Masterworks' series. I've come across lots of man-apes, and the story where Conan treacherously massacres allied blacks to get hold of the captive white girl, but nothing about blacks being apelike.<BR/><BR/>From what I could see REH's worldview was a cyclical one where man arises from the apes, founds civilisations, becomes degenerate, and regresses to apelike state before the cycle begins again.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39234891214269351072009-03-24T16:49:00.000-04:002009-03-24T16:49:00.000-04:00I'd rather not drag this down to the racism argume...I'd rather not drag this down to the racism argument, but read the Conan story, "The Man-Eaters of Zamboula" for the worst of Howard's Africans = Apes.Matthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47038198197521976302009-03-24T12:45:00.000-04:002009-03-24T12:45:00.000-04:00I was referring exclusively to the Conan stories, ...<I>I was referring exclusively to the Conan stories, since I haven't read Solomon Kane.</I><BR/><BR/>Heve you read the unedited Howard stories, or are you familiar with conan through the Lancer publications edited by de Camp and Carter? The Lancer books tend to downplay and edit out the worst of Howard's racism.Knightskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08397391662639446678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89872130735530834332009-03-24T12:08:00.000-04:002009-03-24T12:08:00.000-04:00Max:"@ Brian: Mr Saunders wrote about his reasons ...Max:<BR/>"@ Brian: Mr Saunders wrote about his reasons for this decision here."<BR/><BR/>Interesting moral dilemma - author writes fiction where fictionalised group A massacres group B, and this is approved of by the authorial voice, only for real-world group A to massacre group B on a much larger scale. I guess early 20th century pulp fiction authors who wrote about international cabals of sinister Jews, against whom their hero battles, may have felt similarly when they heard of the Nazi Holocaust.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66847723733612601332009-03-24T11:58:00.000-04:002009-03-24T11:58:00.000-04:00Will:"Uh, actually he does. In "Red Shadows" for s...Will:<BR/>"Uh, actually he does. In "Red Shadows" for sure. I'm pretty sure in "The Moon of Skulls", too.<BR/><BR/>And these are just a couple Solomon Kane stories I've read this week."<BR/><BR/>I was referring exclusively to the Conan stories, since I haven't read Solomon Kane.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-18758383333996798002009-03-23T22:45:00.000-04:002009-03-23T22:45:00.000-04:00@ Brian: Mr Saunders wrote about his reasons for t...<B>@ Brian:</B> Mr Saunders wrote about his reasons for this decision <A HREF="http://www.reindeermotel.com/CHARLES/charles_blog16_rwanda.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Maxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615194097431562045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55085537361304789092009-03-23T22:43:00.000-04:002009-03-23T22:43:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Maxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615194097431562045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34346331059513655662009-03-23T22:11:00.000-04:002009-03-23T22:11:00.000-04:00I've heard mentioned of this series before and lik...I've heard mentioned of this series before and like others, would like to thank you for the reminder. Ordered from Amazon.Joe G Kushnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02454826299896049587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83127086530147182262009-03-23T22:02:00.000-04:002009-03-23T22:02:00.000-04:00Has anyone read the version of Imaro with "Th...Has anyone read the version of Imaro with "The Slaves of the Giant-Kings?" I read on wikipedia that this has been excised from the current version because of parallels to the events in Rwanda of 1994. That disappoints me-- there are some things about that conflict that perhaps can only be said in fiction. The fact that the story was written some 10+ years before the events that they seem to resemble, would seem to make any conclusions all the more powerful. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, I'm really glad to know about these books! The only time in my life when I didn't have anything to do with D&D was when I lived in East Africa-- it seemed redundant-- so it's really exciting to see these two interests of mine intersecting.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88718070670223554372009-03-23T21:25:00.000-04:002009-03-23T21:25:00.000-04:00I haven't read these since they first came out. Yo...I haven't read these since they first came out. Your post has made me decide that it's time to hunt through my boxes of old books and find my old DAW editions and reread them.<BR/><BR/>For those worried about agendas, the only agenda I remember the author having is "tell a good story in a different setting."Randallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879930955049101533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61500290177629616292009-03-23T19:31:00.000-04:002009-03-23T19:31:00.000-04:00"Will, there are lots of man-apes and ape-men in t..."Will, there are lots of man-apes and ape-men in the Conan stories, but that's nothing to do with 'race' - certainly REH doesn't call black characters apelike!"<BR/><BR/>Uh, actually he does. In "Red Shadows" for sure. I'm pretty sure in "The Moon of Skulls", too.<BR/><BR/>And these are just a couple Solomon Kane stories I've read this week.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3781837804711227622009-03-23T19:14:00.000-04:002009-03-23T19:14:00.000-04:00Will, there are lots of man-apes and ape-men in th...Will, there are lots of man-apes and ape-men in the Conan stories, but that's nothing to do with 'race' - certainly REH doesn't call black characters apelike! The Cimmerians themselves were 'regressed into apelike savagery' not that long ago, per the backstory (which also has white-furred arctic apemen), and Hyborean man-apes seem if anything more common in northerly climes. Howard's point concerned how close Man in general was to his ape origins, how thin the line between man and ape. I don't recall anything about whites being less apelike than blacks.<BR/><BR/>The books sound interesting, may give them a look after I've read Jirel of Joiry.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15754800581790192662009-03-23T16:51:00.000-04:002009-03-23T16:51:00.000-04:00"Reimagining sword and sorcery pulp in a way that'..."Reimagining sword and sorcery pulp in a way that's true to its roots while correcting for the simplistic racial thinking is an agenda that I can get behind!"<BR/><BR/>Agreed! While I know that we need to keep in mind that writers like Howard and Lovecraft were products of their times and so on, it's just plain *nice* sometimes to indulge in some quality pulp fiction in which nobody is described as "apelike."Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53875050245318166892009-03-23T16:47:00.000-04:002009-03-23T16:47:00.000-04:00On the topic on of pulp and politics, even the aut...On the topic on of pulp and politics, even the authors of classic era had sociopolitical agendas of one sort or another, albeit generally not too strident (with the exception of HPL from time to time). <BR/><BR/>Leigh Brackett's later Skaith novel <I>The Ginger Star</I> makes her disdain for hippies *hilariously* plain, for example.Maxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07615194097431562045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58745741412280471812009-03-23T16:43:00.000-04:002009-03-23T16:43:00.000-04:00For what it's worth, I think Imaro II (The Quest f...For what it's worth, I think Imaro II (<I>The Quest for Cush</I>) is even better than Imaro I. <BR/><BR/>Those interested might want to know that Saunders revised the first two Imaro novels heavily for their edition in Night Shade books (which is now being supplemented by the "Soul & Sword" editions through Lulu.com). So the DAW volumes won't be exactly the same as the newer ones.James Engehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01959690088080326476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23872051017555047212009-03-23T16:27:00.000-04:002009-03-23T16:27:00.000-04:00I only just read the first book about 6 months ago...I only just read the first book about 6 months ago and had the same reaction: how did I miss this all these years?<BR/><BR/>Imaro is very, very good, 2nd generation S&S.Matthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86311114719886485132009-03-23T15:01:00.000-04:002009-03-23T15:01:00.000-04:00The characterization of Imaro as a "jungle hero" i...<I>The characterization of Imaro as a "jungle hero" is stupid enough that it actually explains WHY Saunders might have felt the need to make a point of having black lead characters (hint: Imaro's tribe is clearly based on the Maasai--I've actually been to the part of Africa where they live and it's pretty much jungle-free).</I><BR/><BR/>I think that's exactly right. These books are a much needed corrective to popular misconceptions and stereotypes about Africa and Africans, but they're also, first and foremost, really well told stories with complex characters and situations. Those kinds of stories are rare enough in <I>any</I> genre, let alone pulp fantasy. Add in the fact that they're not just rehashes of Epic Hero on an Epic Quest in Generic Fantasy World #937 and you've got something remarkable in your hands here.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32468977764289913362009-03-23T14:58:00.000-04:002009-03-23T14:58:00.000-04:00Reimagining sword and sorcery pulp in a way that's...<I>Reimagining sword and sorcery pulp in a way that's true to its roots while correcting for the simplistic racial thinking is an agenda that I can get behind! :)</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed and, as I noted in the original post, Saunders is a subtle writer and knowledgeable about the genre. He's not a hater of swords-and-sorcery by any means and he understands it well enough to be able to present it through another lens without either making it a parody of itself or undermining the qualities that drew us to it in the first place.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9509995532088973712009-03-23T14:56:00.000-04:002009-03-23T14:56:00.000-04:00Of course if the character is always massacring fi...<I>Of course if the character is always massacring filthy white devils to save the black maiden I'd expect that would get old fast for those of us of the paler persuasion.</I><BR/><BR/>Not to worry. Imaro's world is almost wholly a fantastical pre-colonial Africa. Saunders's genius, I think, is being able to present this world as rich and varied, with its own indigenous heroes and villains. Leaving aside the ancient Atlanteans (or Mizungus, as they're called in the books), there really aren't any white people in the books, in much the same way as there aren't any black people in most European-style vanilla fantasy.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87196109398776887612009-03-23T14:52:00.000-04:002009-03-23T14:52:00.000-04:00I can't speak for Dossouye. Haven't snatched it up...<I>I can't speak for Dossouye. Haven't snatched it up yet.</I><BR/><BR/>Nor I, but I plan to read it once I have finished the Imaro novels. My suspicion is that it's about as "political" as the Imaro books, which is to say not very much at all, unless one takes the fact that the protagonist is a black woman to be a political statement, which perhaps it is, but not one that I find bothersome. As I said, I'm not someone who has much liking for using literature as an explicit soapbox and I don't see Saunders as being in that mold, even if his books do widen one's perspective about African history and legend and the possibilities they hold for telling great fantasy stories.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55618940285557223072009-03-23T14:48:00.000-04:002009-03-23T14:48:00.000-04:00This just sends alarm bells ringing in my head. I ...<I>This just sends alarm bells ringing in my head. I am very weary about reading fantasy books where the author has an agenda.</I><BR/><BR/>I think it'd be unfair to say there's an explicit agenda in the books beyond telling some remarkable swords-and-sorcery stories that draw on African rather than European myths and history. That won't be to everyone's tastes and there's no shame in that, but, speaking as someone who's very sensitive to and disdainful of the overt politicization of literature, you won't find much of it in the Imaro novels.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31975987916534692252009-03-23T14:45:00.000-04:002009-03-23T14:45:00.000-04:00(His origin tale is actually in Dragon magazine of...<I>(His origin tale is actually in Dragon magazine of all places, although I can't remember the issue)</I><BR/><BR/>It's issue 86, from June 1984.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12347441831665760292009-03-23T14:41:00.000-04:002009-03-23T14:41:00.000-04:00I just ordered the first two Imaro books for the g...<I>I just ordered the first two Imaro books for the grand total of a mere $11.84. Unfortunately, the third Imaro book costs $40+.</I><BR/><BR/>I presume that's the original DAW edition? You can get the third novel much cheaper directly from the author.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com