tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post571154553852881781..comments2024-03-19T03:02:38.228-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Character Generation ThoughtsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50935566581637290412009-08-16T18:47:48.684-04:002009-08-16T18:47:48.684-04:00Random is just that, 'school'. Nothing mor...Random is just that, 'school'. Nothing more.<br /><br />I do prefer it, though. But, for me it's because I suck at 'designing' characters. I always takes what the dice give me and try to see how I can portray that character, funny voices and all. The times when I try to design a character with point buy system I usually find that I don't know what to do with it after a few sessions. That just my style.AndreasDavourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17170806742393291962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19226199464387351762009-08-14T10:37:32.294-04:002009-08-14T10:37:32.294-04:00I think it depends greatly on how one uses the ter...<i>I think it depends greatly on how one uses the terms "old" and "modern." I don't think it's impossible to create a new old school game. "Old school" is, for me anyway, a description of an approach to game design and game play that has its roots in the past -- hence the "old" part -- but isn't limited to that past. There are plenty of "modern old school" games out there; they're just not the norm. </i><br /><br />See, and I think ascribing random char gen as an indicative of being 'old school' not only glosses over the early point-buy and choice based systems of the past but it also ignores the fact that random char gen has been a common design choice throughout the history of RPGS. <br /><br />For me, and I suspect many others, Random Character Generation isn't 'old school,' it's just 'school.' <br /><br />I fear that there is a tendency for people to label everything they like about role-playing games as 'old school' and everything they dislike as a modern deviation from their ideal, regardless of accuracy.Mike Schulzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10733098315094942284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80954383265166878172009-08-13T23:42:36.042-04:002009-08-13T23:42:36.042-04:00Heck, I don’t consider role-playing games to be ga...Heck, I don’t consider role-playing games to be games. At least, not in my own sense. I’m not sure about any traditional sense.<br /><br />But then, I guess I already admitted to being OK with “character crafting”—even if I’m personally likely to make some impromptu die rolls to help me decide things when doing it myself.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55890548316930927052009-08-13T15:56:30.569-04:002009-08-13T15:56:30.569-04:00Sure, many of these games have older roots, but th...<i>Sure, many of these games have older roots, but the designers of these incarnations of these games clearly feel that Random Char Gen isn't incompatible with modern gaming.</i><br /><br>I think it depends greatly on how one uses the terms "old" and "modern." I don't think it's impossible to create a <i>new</i> old school game. "Old school" is, for me anyway, a description of an approach to game design and game play that has its roots in the past -- hence the "old" part -- but isn't limited to that past. There are plenty of "modern old school" games out there; they're just not the norm.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80199256861066544382009-08-13T15:54:16.764-04:002009-08-13T15:54:16.764-04:00From that perspective, a complaint that "it&#...<i>From that perspective, a complaint that "it's no fun if I don't get the character I want" is as odd as someone insisting on picking the cards with which he or she starts in Pinochle.</i><br /><br>I agree, but, of course, I don't think many gamers would liken RPGs to card games these days. Indeed, I suspect that a great many of them no longer even consider them <i>games</i> in the traditional sense at all, at least if the descriptions given in the obligatory "What is Roleplaying?" sections are any indication.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39525096792890246742009-08-13T15:52:26.702-04:002009-08-13T15:52:26.702-04:00How is the GM supposed to deal with a party compri...<i>How is the GM supposed to deal with a party comprising a Nadsokor beggar, an Ilmoran farmer, and a Melnibonean dragon-rider?</i><br /><br>With some difficulty, I suspect, but, if he somehow manages to do it, I'll bet it'd be a campaign worth remembering :)<br /><br />More seriously, yes, there is a danger of just what you describe happening in games where randomness is the sole name of the game. Fortunately, I think most old school players and referees have as much fondness for common sense as they do for randomness and so would make appropriate tweaks to ensure smoother campaign play.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45360030420299843242009-08-13T15:50:12.166-04:002009-08-13T15:50:12.166-04:00In other words, the narrative is assembled out of ...<i>In other words, the narrative is assembled out of the pieces that drop out of play, rather than playing through a pre-scripted narrative.</i><br /><br>That's my preference as well.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77607763183552071992009-08-13T15:49:26.614-04:002009-08-13T15:49:26.614-04:00I’m not saying it’s wrong. I can appreciate it. I ...<i>I’m not saying it’s wrong. I can appreciate it. I could probably even enjoy it on the rare occasion. It’s just not something I’m going to enjoy on a regular basis.</i><br /><br>You and me both. With the exception of <i>The Dying Earth</i> RPG, I've never been a huge fan of Robin Laws's designs, but that's purely a matter of taste and many people whom I respect think highly of his work.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10282747487629154792009-08-13T14:51:27.363-04:002009-08-13T14:51:27.363-04:00Robert Fisher said...
Whether old or not, I will s...Robert Fisher said...<br /><i>Whether old or not, I will say that TFT was clearly and intentionally a different school than D&D.</i><br /><br />Agreed. I was trying to point out that the "Then" vs. "Now" distinction is a bit fuzzy. The Mike and Jenny post also pointed it out in the opposite direction by mentioning new games' use of randomization in character generation.Marc Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10595934909921503455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46766765980091225932009-08-13T13:00:22.473-04:002009-08-13T13:00:22.473-04:00"My suspicion is that you're thinking in ..."My suspicion is that you're thinking in terms of the story you want to see rather than the story you ought to tell."<br /><br />I'm not thinking <i>story</i>. I'm thinking <i>game</i>. Ultimately those are polar opposites, and therein lies our fundamental inability to agree.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11240842981174830992009-08-13T11:13:01.217-04:002009-08-13T11:13:01.217-04:00Random rolls can't be that 'old school'...Random rolls can't be that 'old school' given that Mongoose Traveller, all of the ORE games and the current editions of BRP and all of the Warhammer FRP games (including Dark Hersey)feature Random Char Gen. <br /><br />Sure, many of these games have older roots, but the designers of these incarnations of these games clearly feel that Random Char Gen isn't incompatible with modern gaming.Mike Schulzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10733098315094942284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25830956467486007222009-08-12T22:50:52.244-04:002009-08-12T22:50:52.244-04:00I don’t know that I disagree about Robin being the...I don’t know that I disagree about Robin being the most important mainstream RPG writer. If there is such a person, he may well be in the running. It just seems more and more like his approach and mine are divergent enough that they aren’t even the same hobby anymore.<br /><br />Could you elaborate on laying waste to gamer pretensions and assumptions? I’m not seeing what you mean.<br /><br />Whether old or not, I will say that TFT was clearly and intentionally a different school than D&D. (So much ground was explored in the early days, I have a hard time trying to classify with terms like “old school” and “modern”.)Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31210569063735037402009-08-12T18:30:40.832-04:002009-08-12T18:30:40.832-04:00The comments about "old school" being ra...The comments about "old school" being random vs. "modern" point-buy should be taken with a grain of salt, since The Fantasy Trip, which started in 1977 with Melee, was total point-buy from Day 1. No randomness in chargen at all.Marc Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10595934909921503455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52840156545402134132009-08-12T12:38:19.839-04:002009-08-12T12:38:19.839-04:00But reading Robin Laws’ latest “See Page XX” about...<em>But reading Robin Laws’ latest “See Page XX” about applying the structure of fiction to role-playing games really drove home to me how much I don’t want to play that game</em><br /><br />Laws is probably the most important mainstream RPG writer right now, in both theory and practice. His 'See Page XX' collection is worth every penny of its low price, and more - really lays waste to a lot of gamer pretensions and assumptions.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49245346499208475282009-08-12T12:35:29.688-04:002009-08-12T12:35:29.688-04:00"I'm inclined to disagree. A premise is a...<em>"I'm inclined to disagree. A premise is a premise, not a story in itself. If you're cooking up a Fox Mulder-type character, you wouldn't want to game out the abduction of his sister before moving him into the FBI and whatnot..."<br /><br />I completely don't see that in any way, shape, or form.</em><br /><br />My suspicion is that you're thinking in terms of the story you want to see rather than the story you ought to tell. For example: I 'want to know' whether Angel and Spike and Gunn survive the battle at the end of the <em>Angel</em> TV series - but it's not a cliffhanger. This thing that I don't know, I don't know because not knowing is part of the story.<br /><br />As for Mulder's sister, not seeing the event at first makes its eventual presentation more eventful, and puts the audience in the position of facing the memory along with Mulder, linking character experiences to audience experiences. I don't need to see him in college to 'make more sense' of the bits of college-related backstory the show gives. See what I mean?<br /><br />Closer to home (alas), the value of Strahd von Zarovich is as a badass villain and tragic figure. If you leave his backstory up to chance, maybe you end up with the same dramatic situation eventually, but what if you don't? Backstories work in one direction; 'filling in the past' is an important dramatic technique, 'filling in the future' is usually cheating.<br /><br />PCs =/= NPCs, and playable material =/= backstory. They have different functions and should be treated differently. That seems obvious to me so I wonder what you mean by your disagreement.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22661494606808449402009-08-12T06:28:45.438-04:002009-08-12T06:28:45.438-04:00The selection of random generation or a point-buy ...The selection of random generation or a point-buy system is to my mind centered squarely in consideration of an RPG as, in fact, a <i>game</i>. The former is like getting dealt a hand in a card game, and involves similar structural implementations of the interaction of chance and skill.<br /><br />From that perspective, a complaint that "it's no fun if I don't get the character I want" is as odd as someone insisting on picking the cards with which he or she starts in Pinochle.<br /><br />However, another perspective has become common, one that taken to an extreme results either in subversion of the game (via GM "fudging" and "railroading") or in transformation into a different kind of game.<br /><br />With Marvel Super Heroes, I greatly downplay the whole game aspect. I use completely free-form character generation, working with the player to translate his or her concept as accurately as possible into mechanical terms. In play, I treat it more as an entertainment, a collaborative story-telling exercise. The use of formal rules is so fast and loose that I would consider it a "game" only in a very tenuous sense. "Interactive fiction" would be spot-on!<br /><br />"One size fits all" simply does not. I also dig V&V and Champions, each used in its traditional way.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53741392536677255302009-08-12T04:03:15.071-04:002009-08-12T04:03:15.071-04:00@Delta:
There's value in *sometimes* declarin...@Delta:<br /><br />There's value in *sometimes* declaring the abduction of Mulder's sister part of a characters a background for a couple of reasons.<br /><br />6) That kind of stuff gives the player a little bit of input into the world-building, which gets certain kinds of players more involved in the game.<br /><br />5) The player may want to play a character with certain particular traits and/or motivations, which might require a particular life experience to have happened a certain way. This is not unusual, and frankly, there's nothing wrong with it. The drama club crowd is allowed to game too.<br /><br />4) Some folks just hate playing spell-casters. Or they only really like playing ninjas. These guys can't rely on random generation to give them characters they want to play, and a lot of them use background and motive to differentiate their characters instead of race and class.<br /><br />3) Past events offer a 1st-level character a motivation, which is a handy role-playing hook when the player doesn't yet know what he wants to do. Beginning sandbox games often suffer from this malaise. And as core motivation goes, the goals a player comes up with himself are usually better than anything the DM comes up with for him.<br /><br />2) The player is very often more intrigued by the fallout from his background than by actually playing through it. For instance, the abduction might have happened while Mulder was out of town, or asleep. He wouldn't get to play a part in any of the exciting bits.<br /><br />But most importantly:<br /><br />1) If the abduction serves as a reason for the character to meet the party, playing it out would mean a lot of time that the other PCs don't get to game. We can probably all agree that having one guy playing and four people watching for six hours at a time is bloody stupid. If you keep the psychodrama confined to character background, the player gets a character and an initial goal that makes sense to him, and the rest of the group can actually get in a word edgewise.Big McStrongmusclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07067031012393190130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42363813532844813892009-08-12T03:25:47.866-04:002009-08-12T03:25:47.866-04:00Stormbringer is the one game I own where I find th...Stormbringer is the one game I own where I find the character generation process excessively random. How is the GM supposed to deal with a party comprising a Nadsokor beggar, an Ilmoran farmer, and a Melnibonean dragon-rider? I don't need perfect balance between PCs, but Stormbringer chargen, unlike OD&D, mostly creates mundane people unsuited to adventuring. Certainly unsuited to the kinds of adventures published for the game, which seem to assume a more typically D&Dish gang of warriors, rogues and wizards, not peasants and tradesmen.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14485994080281600072009-08-12T03:03:56.190-04:002009-08-12T03:03:56.190-04:00"I'm inclined to disagree. A premise is a..."I'm inclined to disagree. A premise is a premise, not a story in itself. If you're cooking up a Fox Mulder-type character, you wouldn't want to game out the abduction of his sister before moving him into the FBI and whatnot..."<br /><br />I completely don't see that in any way, shape, or form.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64169683979142154182009-08-12T00:42:57.682-04:002009-08-12T00:42:57.682-04:00I think part of the issue here, based on this thre...I think part of the issue here, based on this thread and several conversations I've had with other gamers on this subject, is the interplay between "narrative" and "game", between what is "scripted" vs. what happens as a result of randomness and on the spot player choice.<br /><br />For me, I think the reason I prefer random generation is because I believe that the synthesis of these two situations is a story that emerges from the randomness. In other words, the narrative is assembled out of the pieces that drop out of play, rather than playing through a pre-scripted narrative.<br /><br />For me, random rolled characters are usually an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse" rel="nofollow">Exquisite Corpse</a> type exercise, 'cos I usually never have a clear idea going in what I want to play.BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2315600069512621912009-08-12T00:41:55.833-04:002009-08-12T00:41:55.833-04:00Well, in my D&D edition-of-choice, 1st level f...Well, in my D&D edition-of-choice, 1st level fighters are Veterans. (^_^)<br /><br />“<b>‘If he survives’ is dramatically worthless</b>...”<br /><br />I’ve tended to downplay the “storytelling” mode as significantly distinct, but more and more I’m thinking that it’s more important than I give it credit for.<br /><br />When making a decision as referee or player, I do consider “What would make a good story?” Among other things.<br /><br />But reading <a href="http://www.pelgranepress.com/site/?page_id=66" rel="nofollow">Robin Laws’ latest “See Page XX”</a> about applying the structure of fiction to role-playing games really drove home to me how much I don’t want to play that game. I’m not saying it’s wrong. I can appreciate it. I could probably even enjoy it on the rare occasion. It’s just not something I’m going to enjoy on a regular basis.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46231580648576651742009-08-11T23:41:50.031-04:002009-08-11T23:41:50.031-04:00Random chargen is pretty fun in my opinion. It doe...Random chargen is pretty fun in my opinion. It does have its limits, sure, and nowhere in Stormbringer does it say that you can't just choose the details for the character you want. I have always liked using random character generation and sometimes get players that appreciate it too. In a case like Stormbringer, I think it was an excellent decision as a way to integrate and introduce PCs into the setting, avoiding the (inevitable?) preponderance of Melnibonean/Pan Tang characters...Ragnorakkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03812860633134547618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-69224981661228081782009-08-11T22:16:00.842-04:002009-08-11T22:16:00.842-04:00"Han's player might've said to his GM...<em>"Han's player might've said to his GM, "Hey, can I supe up my ship a bit at the start of the game if I owe money on it to a big time space gangster?" To which a GM like me says, "Cool. I can create a crimelord and a criminal organization...maybe someone owned the ship before you...sure why not!""<br /><br />Even cooler: Start the PC off pre-any of that stuff and play through it in real time. If he survives.</em><br /><br />I'm inclined to disagree. A premise is a premise, not a story in itself. If you're cooking up a Fox Mulder-type character, you wouldn't want to game out the abduction of his sister before moving him into the FBI and whatnot...you'd introduce Scully (they meet in a tavern called 'Quantico') and bring in backstory as you go.<br /><br />'If he survives' is dramatically worthless - it's machismo. The whole point is that surviving (his early life) brings about the most interesting situations - the best for gaming.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22967587328764138512009-08-11T22:01:30.926-04:002009-08-11T22:01:30.926-04:00"Han's player might've said to his GM..."Han's player might've said to his GM, "Hey, can I supe up my ship a bit at the start of the game if I owe money on it to a big time space gangster?" To which a GM like me says, "Cool. I can create a crimelord and a criminal organization...maybe someone owned the ship before you...sure why not!""<br /><br />Even cooler: Start the PC off pre-any of that stuff and play through it in real time. If he survives.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81684457591787839332009-08-11T21:48:37.770-04:002009-08-11T21:48:37.770-04:00"Try to think of your new PC as a fictional c..."Try to think of your new PC as a fictional character."<br /><br />Ok, ignoring the possibilty that in the last 32 years I've been gaming I've never done that before, I'll try to expand my explanation.<br /><br />I know very little about the fictional character of a book...unless of course he's MY fictional character from MY book. Then, for the sake of the book, I should hope I know a few things about him. Perhaps it's only where he's from, why he does what he does or what his favorite flavor of ice cream is. I don't assume, as both a player and a GM, that just because we haven't eaten ice cream in our campaign up til now that a character has never tasted ice cream.<br /><br />Plus, I do play Superheroes a lot and Superheroes, as it turns out, often have Origins (with a capital 'O'!). These background events explain the nature of the character's power and often their reason for being heroes.<br /><br />I actually generate very little pre-campaign background for my characters compared to some players I've met but I don't ignore the fact that this person existed prior to walking into the tavern and meeting the rest of the party. This has been true of all my character since my very first one in 1977 at the age of 8.<br /><br />Take Han Solo as a good example of what I'm talking about. We don't know who he is or where he's from when we first meet him but it takes use less then 5 minutes to realize that he's lived a life before he met Luke. It's possible the GM came up with his backstory but why not let the player come up with some ideas - it's his character. Han's player might've said to his GM, "Hey, can I supe up my ship a bit at the start of the game if I owe money on it to a big time space gangster?" To which a GM like me says, "Cool. I can create a crimelord and a criminal organization...maybe someone owned the ship before you...sure why not!"<br /><br />AD<br />Barking AlienAdam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.com