tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5802955288277999682..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Worlds without Magic MissilesJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7294785066413815502010-11-05T09:28:52.289-04:002010-11-05T09:28:52.289-04:00...(as real medieval people apparently did - check...<i>...(as real medieval people apparently did - check out the many depictions in medieval art of Romans and Greeks and Biblical figures wearing anachronistic medieval clothes and equipment)....</i><br /><br />For an interesting update on that, check out Avram Davidson's _The Phoenix and the Mirror_--it's set in a pre-Christian Rome/Mediterranean basin as imagined by medieval scholars.<br /><br /><i>But no one in the campaign world really knows for sure. </i><br /><br />Except for the elves, who live far longer than a couple of human generations. So that approach would seem to imply that they don't bother to pay attention to human fashions, and that their interactions with human society are quite limited. There's a lot of good RP potential hidden in things like this....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58478077147859924182010-11-04T13:09:31.097-04:002010-11-04T13:09:31.097-04:00"That seems like a workable approach, albeit ..."That seems like a workable approach, albeit one that carries a bit of the "PCs are special" trope."<br /><br />I have no problem with the idea that PC's (or at least PC and NPC "adventurers") are special. My view is that adventurers are chosen by the gods to do battle with the forces of darkness - albeit often unwittingly and motivated by the prospect of gain rather than by any more "noble" motive. Intentionally or not, adventurers roll back the tide of evil, or at least hold it at bay for a little while. So I think the gods can show them a few unusual signs of favor (e.g., allowing them to be raised from the dead when most people can't be).<br /><br />"There are a lot of campaigns that posit medieval Western European-like societies that have persisted, essentially unchanged, for thousands of years. This tends to break my WSOD unless there's some very good handwaving involved."<br /><br />My personal approach is to give the players roughly the same amount of knowledge of the past as real medieval people had. So they know what happened in the gaming world for the last couple generations fairly well, have a sketchy idea about the previous couple centuries, and know nothing but vague legends about earlier periods. Their characters probably believe the past was just like the present (as real medieval people apparently did - check out the many depictions in medieval art of Romans and Greeks and Biblical figures wearing anachronistic medieval clothes and equipment) and they're probably wrong about that. But no one in the campaign world really knows for sure.TheShadowKnowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11073693648569864707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54574665152802505212010-11-04T09:49:19.615-04:002010-11-04T09:49:19.615-04:001) There just aren't that many high level spel...<i>1) There just aren't that many high level spell casters. Most clergy aren't "clerical" class but rather 0 level normal humans, and high level clerics are few and far between. Magic users who reach name level tend to go insane or blow themselves up while experimenting with potions, so there aren't very many of them either.</i><br /><br />So all 11th level clerics, e.g., are High Priests, but not all High Priests are 11th level clerics? And with regard to MUs, the argument is that non-adventuring XP gain has dangers comparable to adventuring? That seems like a workable approach, albeit one that carries a bit of the "PCs are special" trope.<br /><br /><i>Other people might have different answers, but those are some of the ways I would justify a world that has a lot of magic, but isn't really that different from the actual medieval period. </i><br /><br />That reminds me of another issue with the default game setting being similar to medieval Western Europe: Cultural stability. In RL, the medieval period lasted roughly a millenium, give or take. But it was by no means a period of technological, cultural, or political stasis. There are a lot of campaigns that posit medieval Western European-like societies that have persisted, essentially unchanged, for thousands of years. This tends to break my WSOD unless there's some very good handwaving involved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20401517828385671042010-11-03T10:01:00.580-04:002010-11-03T10:01:00.580-04:00"My feeling is that, as written, most version..."My feeling is that, as written, most versions of D&D imply a highly magical world, one where things like food shortages, unclear water, and disease should be, if not unknown, at least a lot more uncommon."<br /><br />I've never had any players complain about this problem, but if they did I would have three possible answers in my own campaigns:<br /><br />1) There just aren't that many high level spell casters. Most clergy aren't "clerical" class but rather 0 level normal humans, and high level clerics are few and far between. Magic users who reach name level tend to go insane or blow themselves up while experimenting with potions, so there aren't very many of them either.<br /><br />2) Clerical spells are granted directly by the gods for the purposes of the gods. The gods want HEROES (i.e., PC's) healed, cured, and raised from the dead. They won't cure random peasants of disease and they won't raise useless nobles from the dead just because their relatives have money. So most NPC's are no better off than the inhabitants of the actual medieval world.<br /><br />3) For every magical source of healing or creation, there is a magical source of harm or destruction. So it all balances out to be more or less like the historical Middle Ages in terms of disease, food shortages, etc.<br /><br />Other people might have different answers, but those are some of the ways I would justify a world that has a lot of magic, but isn't really that different from the actual medieval period.TheShadowKnowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11073693648569864707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11419457128339565372010-11-01T19:02:46.351-04:002010-11-01T19:02:46.351-04:00The abandonment of chainmail was unfortunate. It l...<i>The abandonment of chainmail was unfortunate. It led to power inflation (no longer are blacksmiths and soldiers 0-level, but now 8th level blacksmiths and bands of 4th level thieves...imagine that! A band of heroic thieves who's only purpose is to provide a challenge for high level players). It's the problem with MMO's and the problem with 4E where you need 20th level goblins or 14th level giraffes because players are expected to "grind" at high level just as they were at low level.</i><br /><br>This is an intriguing line of thought. I'd like to hear more, actually.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68305091318311282722010-11-01T19:00:24.148-04:002010-11-01T19:00:24.148-04:00I'm curious if there's something in partic...<i>I'm curious if there's something in particular you envision this looking like...and would it be more or less magical than AD&D or D20 which I consider extremely far removed from "Sword & Sorcery;"</i><br /><br>My feeling is that, as written, most versions of <i>D&D</i> imply a highly magical world, one where things like food shortages, unclear water, and disease should be, if not unknown, at least a lot more uncommon. I can't recall any <i>D&D</i> settings that took this as given and ran with it, presenting a world where the game's magic-as-technology undercurrent was given full vent.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67119760249963032842010-10-29T09:31:49.113-04:002010-10-29T09:31:49.113-04:00I'm not sure if this is an objection to what I...<i>I'm not sure if this is an objection to what I said. Nothing stops OD&D characters from continuing to advance in level pretty much forever. They do stop gaining as much power per level, however, and the means by which they gain their power is likely to shift.<br /><br />It's never stated outright in the LBBs that players gain XP for taxes collected in their Baronies, but allowing it would almost inherently lead to a very different "endgame".</i><br /><br />My error--that was intended as an impersonal "you," but in the context of a personal response, I should've been clearer. Getting XP for Baronial achievements would've definitely made for an interesting endgame, albeit one that smacked a bit of Amway-style multilevel marketing.<br /><br />I agree now that the strategic endgame was at least implicit in the LBB/CHAINMAIL combination, but I think I know at least part of why it didn't become more prevalent: In my experience, at least, no one learned to play D&D from the rules alone. With I think one exception, everyone I ever gamed with Back In The Day had at least seen the game played before they tried to DM a game. So something like the late game, that only appears in an established campaign after quite some time, isn't going to be what new people imprint on, and it was lost in transmission.<br /><br />From the POV of a DM, then, I think the thing to do is look at what tropes you want, then come up with the in-game justification for them. If you want to encourage character retirement from active adventuring, set it up so that a Lord advances more quickly in capabilities by leading a Barony than by going out adventuring. Set it up so that Wizards have to spend long periods of uninterrupted time to get any results at all in magical research or item creation, if that's the trope you want; IIRC, Chivalry & Sorcery tried to do something like this.<br /><br />A caveat, though, is that a campaign like this is in a lot of ways even harder to run than one oriented around standard adventuring, and apart from the things you discussed in the LBB & Chainmail there's no good roadmap out there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89401102834797181472010-10-28T13:38:31.990-04:002010-10-28T13:38:31.990-04:00It's been over thirty years since I read CHAIN...<i>It's been over thirty years since I read CHAINMAIL, but ISTR it was focused on squad-level battles; it didn't really get into what I would regard as the key elements of the high-level game. I don't remember any discussion of logistics (although some of that sort of thing showed up in the 1st Ed DMG, of all places), nor anything about advancement. </i><br /><br />There's a lot of information in the LBBs about gathering forces, how much they cost, how fast they can move, how big of a radius around your castle is assumed to stay clear of monsters simply because your castle hasn't been abandoned/destroyed, etc., if that's the kind of thing you're after.<br /><br />What's not present in the LBBs was a decent mechanism for handling combat on that scale.<br /><br /><i>Now, you may reasonably object to a discussion of character advancement when what we're really talking about is the character accruing greater temporal power through the growth of a kingdom. However, I'd argue that a Wizard who's retired from adventuring and set up a stronghold is instead attempting to accrue temporal power by arcane means. (The infamous "Slay Ruler and Transfer Loyalty of Populace to Caster" spell comes to mind.) And in the D&D game, that's represented by an increase in character level. </i><br /><br />I'm not sure if this is an objection to what I said. Nothing stops OD&D characters from continuing to advance in level pretty much forever. They do stop gaining as much power per level, however, and the means by which they gain their power is likely to shift.<br /><br />It's never stated outright in the LBBs that players gain XP for taxes collected in their Baronies, but allowing it would almost inherently lead to a very different "endgame".<br /><br /><i>The intentionality of the differences in power curve between different classes was retconned in pretty early, though.</i><br /><br />Absolutely. The game was shifting towards its modern state even from the first supplement - probably even earlier.Witnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08436715843403046648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67276914139504531882010-10-28T10:39:12.473-04:002010-10-28T10:39:12.473-04:00UWS guy said something like:
The hero and the wiza...UWS guy said something like:<br /><i>The hero and the wizard in chainmail were balanced, it is only the flaws in the early iterations of d&d that created what we consider to be "intended design" of power disparities at different levels. </i><br /><br />I'd never thought of it that way, but you're right. The intentionality of the differences in power curve between different classes was retconned in pretty early, though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13594339022387905672010-10-28T10:29:46.951-04:002010-10-28T10:29:46.951-04:00Witness was alleged to have said:
I think the inte...Witness was alleged to have said:<br /><i>I think the intention at high levels was to raise armies from your Barony and march them out either against your neighbors or into the wilderness to expand your territory. I expect the reason the rules weren't detailed in the LBBs is that you were assumed to have CHAINMAIL.</i><br /><br />It's been over thirty years since I read CHAINMAIL, but ISTR it was focused on squad-level battles; it didn't really get into what I would regard as the key elements of the high-level game. I don't remember any discussion of logistics (although some of that sort of thing showed up in the 1st Ed DMG, of all places), nor anything about advancement. <br /><br />Now, you may reasonably object to a discussion of character advancement when what we're really talking about is the character accruing greater temporal power through the growth of a kingdom. However, I'd argue that a Wizard who's retired from adventuring and set up a stronghold is instead attempting to accrue temporal power by arcane means. (The infamous "Slay Ruler and Transfer Loyalty of Populace to Caster" spell comes to mind.) And in the D&D game, that's represented by an increase in character level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37707016320960899602010-10-28T03:51:35.592-04:002010-10-28T03:51:35.592-04:00None of the listed spells have ever bothered me in...None of the listed spells have ever bothered me in the slightest, though I can see eliminating them if someone wanted to make a low-magic setting.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801468265072232351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67377657936935529362010-10-27T15:54:57.334-04:002010-10-27T15:54:57.334-04:00Sorry, some editing problems...
A 4th level hero...Sorry, some editing problems...<br /><br /> A 4th level hero can attack four men per round on the MtM table a once on the fantasy MtM table.<br /><br />A seer can attack 2x per round on the MtM table (and has an equally less number of, "hit points" than the hero), but still more than a normal man. He has 1 spell, one "nuke" if you will. He can--with his one memorized spell, he can put down exactly 1 unit of troops in mass combat ( 20 men in MtM) or 1 fantastic/heroic foe.<br /><br />The hero and the wizard in chainmail were balanced, it is only the flaws in the early iterations of d&d that created what we consider to be "intended design" of power disparities at different levels.UWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19433002603937280022010-10-27T15:51:57.457-04:002010-10-27T15:51:57.457-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.UWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65464040650088119552010-10-27T15:46:07.506-04:002010-10-27T15:46:07.506-04:00+1 to Witness. The abandonment of chainmail was un...+1 to Witness. The abandonment of chainmail was unfortunate. It led to power inflation (no longer are blacksmiths and soldiers 0-level, but now 8th level blacksmiths and bands of 4th level thieves...imagine that! A band of heroic thieves who's only purpose is to provide a challenge for high level players). It's the problem with MMO's and the problem with 4E where you need 20th level goblins or 14th level giraffes because players are expected to "grind" at high level just as they were at low level.<br /><br />High level players, "should" be fighting goblins, but not 10th level goblins, rather hundreds and hundreds of "normal" goblins. How can high level players feel powerful if goblins, orcs, and even mundane animals keep scaling with them?<br /><br />I'm going off topic.<br /><br />Let's look at the sleep spell. 2d6 "normal" enemies or 1 "heroic" foe. This is an exact mirror of the mass combat and man-to-man tables. Heroes can attack/kill multiple normal foes per round on the (normal) man-to-man table, but gain only 1 attack on the fantasy man-to-man table (called the fantasy combat chart).<br /><br />Other spells from chainmail are also misconstrued as being mass combat when they are actually man-to-man. Take "slow[ness]]. Which effects 20 figures which is only 1 unit of men on a 1:20 scale. Sleep also, really only effects 1 unit of creatures, or 1 heroic creature.<br /><br />The reason magic missile really isn't all that great at low levels, is that it has no inherent ratio built in on the normal/fantastic level. Magic Missile (had it been created when chainmail was still in the mind of gygax) would have been 2d6 magic darts of 1d6 damage (each dart only hitting one foe using the magic users Thac0/or allowing a saving throw) or a single dart of 4d6 damage (again, allowing a save, or a to hit roll).<br /><br />"But wait!", you say. "This is overpowered for a 1st level magic-user!" Yes it is! But none of these spells were designed for 1st level wizards. The lowest level magic-user in chainmail is a seer which is the equal to a hero (4th level) and the magic missile spell we all know and love <b>was designed for a 1st level mu</b> which is why it is so weak at low levels.<br /><br />With a seer in chainmail who had only 1 spell memorized, it begins to make sense what a spell like sleep was about as it was in the hands of a hero, not an unheroic 1st level apprentice.UWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15784318897497877112010-10-27T15:40:26.973-04:002010-10-27T15:40:26.973-04:00+1 to Witness. The abandonment of chainmail was u...+1 to Witness. The abandonment of chainmail was unfortunate. It led to power inflation (no longer are blacksmiths and soldiers 0-level, but now 8th level blacksmiths and bands of 4th level thieves...imagine that! A band of heroic thieves who's only purpose is to provide a challenge for high level players). It's the problem with MMO's and the problem with 4E where you need 20th level goblins or 14th level giraffes because players are expected to "grind" at high level just as they were at low level.<br /><br />High level players, "should" be fighting goblins, but not 10th level goblins, rather hundreds and hundreds of "normal" goblins. How can high level players feel powerful if goblins, orcs, and even mundane animals keep scaling with them?<br /><br />I'm going off topic.<br /><br />Let's look at the sleep spell. 2d6 "normal" enemies or 1 "heroic" foe. This is an exact mirror of the mass combat and man-to-man tables. Heroes can attack/kill multiple normal foes per round on the (normal) man-to-man table, but gain only 1 attack on the fantasy man-to-man table (called the fantasy combat chart).<br /><br />Other spells from chainmail are also misconstrued as being mass combat when they are actually man-to-man. Take "slow[ness]]. Which effects 20 figures which is only 1 unit of men on a 1:20 scale. Sleep also, really only effects 1 unit of creatures, or 1 heroic creature.<br /><br />The reason magic missile really isn't all that great at low levels, is that it has no inherent ratio built in on the normal/fantastic level. Magic Missile (had it been created when chainmail was still in the mind of gygax) would have been 2d6 magic darts of 1d6 damage (each dart only hitting one foe using the magic users Thac0/or allowing a saving throw) or a single dart of 4d6 damage (again, allowing a save, or a to hit roll).UWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83925867228455463852010-10-27T12:20:38.877-04:002010-10-27T12:20:38.877-04:00The issue there is that, AFAICT, the high-level ga...<i>The issue there is that, AFAICT, the high-level game--the "epic responsibilities" you mention--is not well-described in the OD&D rules set or its clones (to put it mildly).</i><br /><br />My opinion? It's right there in the subtitle: "Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns". I think the intention at high levels was to raise armies from your Barony and march them out either against your neighbors or into the wilderness to expand your territory. I expect the reason the rules weren't detailed in the LBBs is that you were assumed to have CHAINMAIL.<br /><br />Then, of course, the game got hugely popular among people without that wargame background (including me), who just sort of assumed they should keep playing the game at high levels much as they had before.Witnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08436715843403046648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28815017956350611232010-10-27T09:40:01.569-04:002010-10-27T09:40:01.569-04:00Reverance Pavane quoth:
Also a big problem with hi...Reverance Pavane quoth:<br /><i>Also a big problem with high level magic users is that must people still treat them as adventurers, or as resources for adventurers. My expectation is that high level characters (of any stripe) are too busy with competing at their own level to be engaged in what they must be consider to be gratuitous displays of power. They have their own epic responsibilities. Stuff that cannot be solved with the simple application of magic (otherwise it wouldn't be a problem, would it). </i><br /><br />The issue there is that, AFAICT, the high-level game--the "epic responsibilities" you mention--is not well-described in the OD&D rules set or its clones (to put it mildly). This leads to the entirely reasonable conclusion on the part of the players that high-level characters do not qualitatively differ from low-level characters, and thus that their concerns and motivations will be close to those of typical adventurers. (It also creates the perception that setting up a stronghold is sugarcoating permanent character retirement from play--in short, a condition indistinguishable in practice from character death.)<br /><br />As a DM you could, if you wanted, gloss the lack of a defined high-level game by effectively barring player-characters from it. The results may not be what you intended.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65460023784412963052010-10-27T04:10:49.229-04:002010-10-27T04:10:49.229-04:00I actually think spells like Summon Monster and Sp...I actually think spells like Summon Monster and Speak With dead should be the only kind of spells a magic-user should have, at least in concept. They should just be reskined and interpreted a little differently.<br /><br />Say you simply change Summon Monster to summon a demon. Most players are wary of demons and you could give everything an additional layer of threat to it with clever roleplay. For example you describe the demon doing the wizard's will, bound by the magical enchantments, but you also note how he glances at the summoner every now and then and grins or how he accepts orders with a quiet and amused resentment. I imagine players would be scared of such a spell and wary of its use. Perhaps even give it a chance that the demon will break his chains or return from the netherworld later, of his own volition to claim payment from the wizard.<br /><br />Speak with dead would be much the same if described in a particularly gruesome or creepy manner. I mean, it's speaking with the dead. Rather than an instant "answer machine", reskin it as a spell that gives the dead "the power to speak". The dead might be in eternal pain and just scream, maybe they hold a grudge and will lie and curse, maybe they know terrible, terrible secrets, maybe they have ulterior motives.<br /><br />Keep players on their toes.<br /><br />@JB: I think a setting that was more or less built on assumptions of high magic was Eberron, at least to a degree. You've got stuff like magic trains powered by bound elementals etc.<br /><br />I mean, in a world with 8th and 9th level spells, I really don't see why people aren't living on the moon, flying around in magic skyships, using simple magic to help around the house (magic brooms, magic illumination, sewing automatons...) and host monthly public ressurections at the temple. It would be an interesting world to play in.Gregor Vugahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10290626264301416468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3676768298363636702010-10-26T22:10:09.389-04:002010-10-26T22:10:09.389-04:00@ James: thanks for the elaboration. Actually, tho...@ James: thanks for the elaboration. Actually, though I was referring to the first part of the paragraph:<br /><br />"Now, I'm sure one could create a setting that followed through on those implications -- most D&D setting do not -- but my gut tells me that such a setting would be very different than the default pseudo-medieval/ancient world most referees and players assume when they hear the words "Dungeons & Dragons." "<br /><br />I'm curious if there's something in particular you envision this looking like...and would it be more or less magical than AD&D or D20 which I consider extremely far removed from "Sword & Sorcery;" and yet when you say <br /><br />"...I'm skeptical that such settings would be very workable as places to adventure in the CONVENTIONAL WAYS..."<br /><br />I can only say that I consider AD&D and D20 to be as "conventional" as D&D comes.<br /><br />In other words, I'm intrigued by the idea of a campaign world that makes full use of the high magic potential rendering adventures in it "unconventional" compared to standard D&D fare...the standard fare being far removed from standard S&S fare.<br /><br />You grok what I'm saying? Maybe we just need to blow the top off this mother!<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65399459287109333392010-10-26T20:37:25.955-04:002010-10-26T20:37:25.955-04:00As for spells above 6th level, I went from accepti...As for spells above 6th level, I went from accepting them in my AD&D days, to rejecting them completely, to finally deciding that some spells of level 7+ exist, but can only be learned, not memorized. Which means they can only be cast from a scroll, with an appropriate chance of a spell fumble.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67934917610680797912010-10-26T15:25:50.743-04:002010-10-26T15:25:50.743-04:00Basically agree with this post. Top item is not ex...Basically agree with this post. Top item is not expanding spells beyond 6th level. Your list of problem spells is well-taken, I avoid any of those in my games, too. (Well, I put Legend Lore in <i>Book of Spells</i> in order to make the 6th level have a rollable 1-12 spells, but I scowled a bit as I did it.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62090610736978638462010-10-26T15:07:16.034-04:002010-10-26T15:07:16.034-04:00Sleep was definitely our go to spell for offensive...<i>Sleep</i> was definitely our go to spell for offensive first level magic users. Although I don't know how anyone can go past <i>Charm Person</i> in an LBB campaign. I think I only ever knew one person that took <i>Magic Missile</i> as a first level spell.<br /><br />A nice focus on magic users is that they don't automatically get knowledge of spells. They need to find a teacher or a scroll (even other mage's spell books are useless for transcription purposes, unless they had the same teacher). The possibility of gaining a new spell should be highly valued. And magical research should be ... interesting (especially when researching combat spells). [I always liked the scout in <i>The Misenchanted Sword</i> by Lawrence Watt Evans who discovering a mage hiding in the swamps decries him as a coward until he discovers he is engaged in spell research...]<br /><br />Also a big problem with high level magic users is that must people still treat them as adventurers, or as resources for adventurers. My expectation is that high level characters (of any stripe) are too busy with competing at their own level to be engaged in what they must be consider to be gratuitous displays of power. They have their own epic responsibilities. Stuff that cannot be solved with the simple application of magic (otherwise it wouldn't be a problem, would it).Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5007703908511336342010-10-26T13:12:56.535-04:002010-10-26T13:12:56.535-04:00In AD&D spells in the 3-5 level range for cler...In AD&D spells in the 3-5 level range for clerics were meted out by the deity's messenger. 6 and 7 level spells were granted directly form the deity. A rule like this might provide balance as to what got cast during a game. Players after all wouldn't be picking them, they'd be asking for them....Tomatsohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08196203763445455491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13698044895887908322010-10-26T12:39:12.018-04:002010-10-26T12:39:12.018-04:00Magic Missile can be crazy effective, depending on...<i>Magic Missile</i> can be crazy effective, depending on the circumstance. But more importantly it is dull as dishwater both in effect and in narration. So, I banned it in my campaign.<br /><br />Most of the other spells you list as problematic, I have rarely seen used. Though I like what can be done with <i>speak with the dead</i> as far as storytelling goes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-41660036544579969442010-10-26T12:24:10.248-04:002010-10-26T12:24:10.248-04:00I should also add, in reference to what I said ear...I should also add, in reference to what I said earlier about my AD&D campaigns not having living NPC spellcasters above level ten, that this meant most magic items not made by the gods had been manufactured by liches. This handily explained why so many of them were cursed.TheShadowKnowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11073693648569864707noreply@blogger.com