tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post5882506448907791307..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Retrospective: Deities & DemigodsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35090063501467099302012-08-24T21:33:13.625-04:002012-08-24T21:33:13.625-04:00I never found a use for the dieties & demogods...I never found a use for the dieties & demogods. The whole thing was poorly presented. Why do Gods need stats? The book should have focused around the cults and religions and temples and not so much on the Gods themselves. Then it would have been useful, instead it was like a giant research paper with stats suggesting that if you played long enough you could fight demi-gods.rjschwarznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24546104818118601112010-03-02T16:21:45.515-05:002010-03-02T16:21:45.515-05:00I derived immense enjoyment from DDG back in the d...I derived <i>immense</i> enjoyment from DDG back in the day. I had the original version, with all the naughty bits (HPL, Leiber, etc.).<br /><br />As a DM, it was a useful tool for the clerics and for plot hinges.<br /><br />As a resource for the world's religions, it was terrific, too. Seeing as I jumped into D&D in the 3rd grade in the early 1980s, I found DDG and EGG not talking down to me and assuming I was not a fool to be refreshing. Also, I had few other resources for old religions. I read every book on Norse & Greek myths in the school library, but they had nothing on all these other religions found in DDG.<br /><br />Oh, EGG was likely a bit over the top in writing that DDG was essential to DM, but it surely did add flavor & depth.<br /><br /><br />Another thing: I just don't get is the cleric angst. If one is suspending belief for hermetic magic, one more step to divine magic ought not be that difficult. Every human culture I can recall has had a divine order of some sort. To leave such out of a world is to design a crippled world.jfruserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01002178940479903025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30837941936260184902010-01-30T13:34:45.968-05:002010-01-30T13:34:45.968-05:00I've always enjoyed D&DG for the backgroun...I've always enjoyed D&DG for the background on various interesting mythologies and the sometimes utterly fantastic art, rather than the game stats therein.<br /><br />I mean, Erol Otus' art for some of the cthulhu mythos was inspired!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14934359516519013740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1329607078182813662010-01-29T17:31:43.112-05:002010-01-29T17:31:43.112-05:00@Referee
Wow. Great post. I think I buy that. Wha...@Referee<br /><br />Wow. Great post. I think I buy that. What did I know about Lovecraft, Leiber, Moorcock, and pulp fiction beyond, of Howard, and the swamp of related books before I saw D&D? Zilch, I'd say. Afterward they were so canonical to my reading that I took it for granted that they'd always been in my awareness. Then, on Sundays, when the flea market came to Trafalgar Village in Oakville, I could identify City Of The Beast by Moorcock as something I'd probably like at the second hand book stall. <br /><br />"You know what, you've convinced me. Give me my dollar back."brasspenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00740202895575678193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61252585780716567862010-01-29T09:22:18.167-05:002010-01-29T09:22:18.167-05:00[i]These days I'm seeing a lot of parallels in...[i]These days I'm seeing a lot of parallels in the career arcs of Gygax and, say, George Lucas. Although to me Gygax rehabilitated a lot in the late era and there's precious little sign of that from Lucas.<br /><br />I hesitate to say it, but I suspect that Gary's having lost control of his own creation probably had a lot to do with this, whereas Lucas has, if anything, only become even more iron fisted in his control.<br />[/i]<br /><br />Once again another set of interesting reflections by all. But, it was this last comment that made me think.<br /><br />The more control one exerts over the product the less power/authority one actually has to change perceptions of the product. Hence, Lucas even though is more in control is reviled more. Also, because D&D is an exercise in collective storytelling it cannot be devolved to a single author - even if that author is a corporation (I use corporation in a much older meaning) - LucasFilm Inc.<br /><br />Back to the post, I remember having mixed feelings about Deities & Demigods. I remember thinking: "So that is going to happen to Magic User when he passes Lv 25..." Also, the Gods represented the ultimate Boss, as you noted, when you said it was simply another (rend)ition of the Monster Manual. However, I don't think many of us playing D&D would have accepted the statless gods, like we would today. It was important for the Gods of the gaming milieu to appear all powerful but flawed, so that players are merely not reduced to pawns in their affairs but feel that they can make a difference in the world.<br /><br />Deities & Demigods also I think was an attempt to break out the Christian mould that Dungeons & Dragons was rapidly beginning to fall into. If you look at some of the art of the period, shields bear crosses and clerics (even the evil ones) wear vestments akin the Catholic (or similar High Church) Church. Yes, Gary probably had his own mythology but many gamers of the 1970s were readily co-opting the religion around them and incorporating that into their games and at that time the dominate religion was Christianity (remember how many fanboy and official articles there were for stat'ing Satan there were). So, I could see Gary foreseeing the problems with that and forcibly introducing polytheism into the D&D mix.<br /><br />It is not that Pulp Fantasy had not been polytheistic but that literature was largely inaccessible to the average young gamer. I don't know how it was in Baltimore but here in Toronto there were only a few places where you could obtain fantasy/pulp literature...the mainstream stores a la WH Smith had very small fantasy/science fiction sections...used bookstores were not much better...save those on the Strip (the seedy areas of Yonge St.); the World's Biggest Bookstore wasn't built yet and Barraka was inaccessible. So, what Gary was probably doing was carving out a path, where those evil gods could be defined and therefore ultimately defeated. For once our heroes have dealt with ever growing powerful minions it would be time sooner or later to take on the Big Boss.<br /><br />Also, Gary probably wanted to introduce some elements of his own Greyhawk game which was quite diverse like the old Star Trek series...whereby adventures could meet Apollo, fight along side with Hercules/Grey Mouser to defeat Ra. Such fantastical adventures were the bread and butter of many an early D&D game before they got codified into a mythology of their own.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82149848071260764222010-01-28T10:10:45.413-05:002010-01-28T10:10:45.413-05:00These days I'm seeing a lot of parallels in th...<i>These days I'm seeing a lot of parallels in the career arcs of Gygax and, say, George Lucas. Although to me Gygax rehabilitated a lot in the late era and there's precious little sign of that from Lucas.</i><br /><br>I hesitate to say it, but I suspect that Gary's having lost control of his own creation probably had a lot to do with this, whereas Lucas has, if anything, only become even more iron fisted in his control.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68195259294296309972010-01-28T10:09:01.024-05:002010-01-28T10:09:01.024-05:00I'm not one who believe UA = "Bad Gygax&q...<i>I'm not one who believe UA = "Bad Gygax" or "The End of the Golden Age", as I tend to like the writer better than a fixed point in time.</i><br /><br>Nothing wrong with that. It's a minority opinion in old school circles these days, but it's not an indefensible one, even if I don't share it myself.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66523260039151000862010-01-28T10:07:57.526-05:002010-01-28T10:07:57.526-05:00I know Gygax did not want to explore real world re...<i>I know Gygax did not want to explore real world religions outside of inspiration of historical clergy. He had demons but not angels.</i><br /><br>That's a point he frequently made, as I recall. He felt it inappropriate to draw too heavily on (most) real world religions, which is why, for example, the archdevils and demon princes largely use obscure Goetic names rather than ones more strongly associated with actual religions.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43760273077523044362010-01-28T10:05:50.062-05:002010-01-28T10:05:50.062-05:00Gary would also occasionally discuss this. He said...<i>Gary would also occasionally discuss this. He said one of JRRT's weaknesses with LoTR was the complete absence of anything spiritual in the work. It was an interesting discussion.</i><br /><br>Yes, I recall Gary's having said similar things in various forums and it was such statements that, combined with others he'd made about LotR, that clinched for me the sense that he never really understood Tolkien or Middle-earth.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60177104510923195832010-01-28T09:58:01.473-05:002010-01-28T09:58:01.473-05:00Speaking of wargaming: If you think the DDG is bad...Speaking of wargaming: If you think the DDG is bad with its stats for the gods, check out Bruce Galloway’s <i>Fantasy Wargaming</i>. ^_^<br /><br />Also, although my AD&D group never did any deity hunting, I’ve got an idea for a campaign playing on that cliché that I’ve been hoping to run someday. The great thing about this hobby is that you can take almost anything, turn it on its head, and <em>use</em> it. Even a “bad” RPG book can be a gold mine of inspiration.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29320541274155347972010-01-28T09:50:27.037-05:002010-01-28T09:50:27.037-05:00I also dislike giving the gods statistics, it'...I also dislike giving the gods statistics, it's just asking for trouble.<br /><br />In my own campaign, the gods are at war and constantly meddling with the affairs of men. My players have even met one and one of them converted to worship her. Woe betide any of my heroes from challenging one of the gods in Summit, though. That is when Hitpoints, Armour Class, Magic resistance and Saving throws cease to function. The gods of Summit will rip the soul from its fleshy container and imprison it forever as they see fit, or enact a punishment similar to what happened to Prometheus... for they are *not bound by the rules* as *mortals are*.<br /><br />I suspect that giving attributes to the gods comes from too much wargaming.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52630654269265854442010-01-28T08:22:37.545-05:002010-01-28T08:22:37.545-05:00I remember my first brush with this very book, and...I remember my first brush with this very book, and although I was still naive enough to believe that I needed every single product to be a true DM, I was never a fan of Deities and Demigods.<br /><br />Maybe it's because my rival for DMing dominance was obsessed with it, or maybe it was just because I didn't like that Gods were being reduced to a level on par with the players.<br /><br />I'm not even sure I'm a fan of the likes of the Lords of the Nine Hells being given stats. It makes them into something less than Gods, and something players can just aspire to kill.<br /><br />An informative, entertaining book - but one I'd never use in one of my games.C.W. Bushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765315229139342921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38650205075443357492010-01-28T00:13:33.032-05:002010-01-28T00:13:33.032-05:00It opened my mind to the plethora of pantheons and...It opened my mind to the plethora of pantheons and gods that pre-internet adolescent otherwise was unlikely to encounter. It actually started an interest in foreign cultures and religions that I've pursued ever since.<br /><br />I never took the stats to mean you were suppose to fight the gods. (they were so overwelmhing high and powerful) But rather as the common shorthand description, A shorthand known to all gamers.Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52351552898013442742010-01-27T20:47:08.162-05:002010-01-27T20:47:08.162-05:00Also try looking at Wikipedia and at Theosophy.org...Also try looking at Wikipedia and at Theosophy.org.JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34903615379088739262010-01-27T20:45:59.775-05:002010-01-27T20:45:59.775-05:00Well, most of the Theosophical works I have not re...Well, most of the Theosophical works I have not read myself, but Gary read a lot of work by H. P. Blavatsky. <br /><br />Probably the best quick on-line source regarding the Devas would be a more recent work which explains the concept of Devas in Theosophy. Just reading the few pages--it explains the Deva hierarchy--Solar, the Planetary, then "Nature" which also pretty much explains why Gary created three classes of Devas tied to specific planes. Since the author of that book read all the Theosophy works, this is a good synopsis of the concepts.<br /><br /><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=aTrF1e9V20sC" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/books?id=aTrF1e9V20sC</a><br /><br />Google won't let you read the whole thing, so just be sure to read the first chapter.JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60566766635356678042010-01-27T20:45:18.635-05:002010-01-27T20:45:18.635-05:00I love DDG. I like it more than any other AD&D...I love DDG. I like it more than any other AD&D books outside of the PHB and the DMG.<br /><br />To me, DDG possesses a sense of wonder. Page after page of mythological beings (including the Cthulhu Mythos, and the Melnibonean, and Nehwon's, plus some monster deities) is even more interesting to me than the MM or the FF.<br /><br />I especially love the fact that the gods are given AD&D stats. If you can't kill a god, what's he for? ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15513675051251710412010-01-27T20:16:14.500-05:002010-01-27T20:16:14.500-05:00Another point: Amongst myself and my AD&D comp...Another point: Amongst myself and my AD&D compatriots, the <b>standard divine abilities</b> on p. 8 were considered enough for any deity to survive nigh any encounter with PCs.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84877110773558246242010-01-27T19:55:19.397-05:002010-01-27T19:55:19.397-05:00He was a salesman, whether or not he was cut out f...<i>He was a salesman, whether or not he was cut out for that job (it involves a great deal of precise lying, and I'd count 'logorrhea' high above dishonesty in a list of Gygax's flaws! Indeed, possibly first among them...).</i><br /><br />Well, he <i>was</i> a salesman before he quit his day job, wasn't he?metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14436794035228914412010-01-27T19:48:46.468-05:002010-01-27T19:48:46.468-05:00"I thought D&D clerics were steeped in Ch..."I thought D&D clerics were steeped in Christian influences (e.g., use of holy water and holy symbols vs. undead and specifically vampires, etc.)."<br /><br />And actually, if you're talking LBBs, then it's "cross", not "holy symbol" (see Vol-1 Equipment, Vol-2 Vampires, etc.).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1448971511253313142010-01-27T18:42:45.691-05:002010-01-27T18:42:45.691-05:00A "true AD&D campaign?" What do thos...<em>A "true AD&D campaign?" What do those words even mean? That it's impossible to play the game without the information contained in Deities & Demigods? Or is it that Gygax believes the notion of gods to be a foundational principle of the game?</em><br /><br />I should think the easy answer is that Gygax (1) was more a liability than an asset <em>marketing-wise</em>, and (2) had a famously screwy view of what he was doing in designing and approving these books, evident in the many contradictions and dead ends in his D&D-related talk; but despite (1) and (2) he very definitely (3) wanted you to buy everything his company sold, good or not, competently written/edited or not, fully-baked or not. He was a salesman, whether or not he was cut out for that job (it involves a great deal of precise lying, and I'd count 'logorrhea' high above dishonesty in a list of Gygax's flaws! Indeed, possibly first among them...).<br /><br />Occam's Razor: Gygax wrote that foreword to get you to buy the book, and as he wrote it, he probably meant what he was writing. If a PR person said that stuff you'd have dismissed it 20 years ago, not unjustifiably.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50110305805237733522010-01-27T18:41:13.506-05:002010-01-27T18:41:13.506-05:00I thought and do think that this is one of the mos...I thought and do think that this is one of the most staggering of the AD&D books. Like somebody else mentioned it turned me on to reading Lovecraft, Leiber, and Moorcock. The business of there being two editions with the Lovecraft and Moorcock removed makes that book even more special and representative of an era I remember. <br /><br />I must agree that there was not a lot of practical use in the book in terms of game play, and what EGG is quoted here as saying sounds to me just egomaniacal sales spiel. <br /><br />But I'm in disagreement that it's an example of over quantification run rampant in AD&D. That this book dared to quantify the divine was to my junior high mind a staggering step. The idea that the divine could be quantified in any capacity, even in a fantasy game, I found to be a big idea, because if you can quantify something, then you make it real - even if it's pure invention. Half of the fun of D&D (and Arduin, which loves nothing more than a table or chart) is that it quantifies imagination. Quantifying mythic things is probably the secret process that mades D&D like a drug. <br /><br />What can be measured can be known. And what can be imagined can be known more intimately by giving it measure.brasspenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00740202895575678193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47795304475488466352010-01-27T17:29:04.927-05:002010-01-27T17:29:04.927-05:00Funnily enough, I would have said that one of the ...Funnily enough, I would have said that one of the problems with LotR is that there is too much spirituality and not enough grit. The book is absolutely all about magic in the sense of "wonder at creation" and the transcendent value of the spirit/soul, and not enough about hitting things (to be very blunt).<br /><br />Indeed, it seems to me that LotR is very much what a "deities are so far above mortals they're almost abstract" setting would be like. That there is little or no evidence of organised churches and clerics (although some is implied for the side of Evil) merely indicates that JRRT believed that religion did not need organising (an interesting idea for a Catholic).<br /><br />Silmarillion of course dealt much more openly with these issues, but one can argue that it never quite informed the background of LotR in a definite and canonical fashion.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54317820351025764932010-01-27T17:23:39.758-05:002010-01-27T17:23:39.758-05:00The problem is that many people become confused wh...The problem is that many people become confused when they hear the term god; they think in terms of the Abrahamic religions, where God is all-powerful. However, there are many examples in mythology of mortals and gods mixing it up. I watched Jason and the Argonauts the other day, and it reminded me of how influenced by mythology Dungeons & Dragons is: hydra, harpies, skeletons, iron golem, etc. In the context of the game's influences, Deities & Demigods makes perfect sense. In Greek mythology, the gods were very involved in the affairs of mortals. Even in a more strictly medieval milieu, there are still angels, devils, demons, and faeries to contend with.<br /><br />More detail on the gods then is present in Deities & Demigods would actually make the book less usable. Basic stats and sketchy details make it easy to modify and expand the gods as needed for one's campaign; just pick some deities for your campaign when it starts, and then modify them as needed as the campaign develops.sjanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05722064514085502251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58572505681808358862010-01-27T17:18:05.267-05:002010-01-27T17:18:05.267-05:00Many gamers today lean a bit liberal and towards a...<i>Many gamers today lean a bit liberal and towards atheism, or at the very least they don't mind breaking the taboo of Abrahamic religions being kept out of D&D and other FRPGs. I know Gygax did not want to explore real world religions outside of inspiration of historical clergy.</i><br /><br />Really? I thought D&D clerics were steeped in Christian influences (e.g., use of holy water and holy symbols vs. undead and specifically vampires, etc.). What gave you the impression he shied away from it?Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07997164906328234122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15206870902055321392010-01-27T17:14:15.904-05:002010-01-27T17:14:15.904-05:00the distinction between magic and miracles is some...<i>the distinction between magic and miracles is somewhat of a D&D invention</i><br />...well, there was also a lively debate at the turn of the 20th century among anthropologists regarding what was religion and what was magic (ie superstition): Fraser's Golden Bough is a contribution to it. And I don't think it's really true that JRRT presented an "unspiritual" fantasy: there's all sorts of discussion of creation and various kinds of ur-spirit-creatures in his notes, it's just all in a decidedly un-Judaeo-Christian register. ...in certain respects. Gandalf and the wizards, for instance, seem to have been left as some kind of stewards for the world by some entity from the early days of the world that smells an awful lot like providence.<br /><br />I'm really interested in this business of the Devas coming to D&D via Theosophy, though: John, do you have any more information about that?<br /><br />Finally, regarding Gary being "off the reservation" - part of me thinks that excluding his later work is a bit like claiming that Picasso should have stuck with the blue period stuff and ignoring all that cubist stuff, another part of me thinks that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that D&D was always the work of many hands, and that every work leaves its author's control when it's sent out into the world. I wonder what Gary thought about this, in later years.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.com