tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6060666826684451287..comments2024-03-28T20:36:33.364-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Pulp Fantasy Library: Chariots of the Gods?James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6492598690360115442011-02-25T11:30:00.821-05:002011-02-25T11:30:00.821-05:00People are looking too hard to find racism in the ...People are looking too hard to find racism in the book; there is none. It takes it from a purely technical point of view; did the ancients have the tools to build the monuments, were they technically capable? He says no, therefore, a different technically advanced culture did it; more advanced than the whites (for those who see racism where there is none, how do you square that).. his explanation is a species from another planet is involved.<br /><br />I suspect he doesn't talk about Stone Henge and so on because the they are not such great technical achievements, nor are there intriguing details about them that match star constellations, or weird pictures in them that seem out or place, or whatever.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19700443292798167262011-02-16T18:17:38.976-05:002011-02-16T18:17:38.976-05:00von Däniken stole the idea from Lovecraft - the wh...von Däniken stole the idea from Lovecraft - the whole Great Old Ones creating mankind from primordial ooze and then uplifting ever so gradually to sentience till he rebelled and the great war in heaven ensured...so you get the back story for Traveller in there too.<br /><br />von Däniken was a runaway success in the 1970s but his ideas are old as Milton. Merely, substituting aliens for Angels and Demons taking away the morality play and later on adding on salacious, scandalous sex - so that it can become a new witch craze.<br /><br />As you said, it is pure pulp and should be relegated as such...the problem is that von Däniken wrote so obtusely and was tied into that whole Fortean revival of the 1970s - his legacy and followers are likely to be with us for some time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52412916223423043792011-02-15T13:13:19.152-05:002011-02-15T13:13:19.152-05:00@TheShadowKnows:
You know, for some reason I have...@TheShadowKnows:<br /><br />You know, for some reason I have never made that connection. However, now that you point it out it seems ridiculously obvious!Narmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08635665594860371230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57415836226959888472011-02-15T12:53:37.450-05:002011-02-15T12:53:37.450-05:00Shadow knows said; "I find von Daniken's ...Shadow knows said; <i>"I find von Daniken's entire body of work nauseating and insulting on every level."</i><br />I suspect that if von Daniken is guilty of 'racism,' it is of a more subconscious type that, say, Lovecraft's feelings on the subject. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Lovecraft felt that some types of humans (white Anglo-Saxons) were clearly morally and mentally superior to other types (Africans, mixed race people, etc.). Given the times he lived in, his views were not unusual. I view von Daniken as more of an opportunist. The <i>implication</i> in his theories that the Pre-Columbians couldn't have built things like the Nazca lines probably is racist at it's core, but is a less conscious form than Lovecraft's in my opinion. One of the problems of being a white European writing books that claim that Notre Dame or The Colliseum were built (or inspired by) aliens is that much of your White western audience is going to have some experience of these monuments and cultures and will not accept your claims. In the 60s and 70s there was only a fraction of the pre-Columbian scholarship there is today and most American people without a deep knowledge of South America or Pre-Columbian culture didn't <i>know</i> about things like the Nazca lines, so von Daniken could say whatever he wanted about them. For the average American in the 1970s, those who hadn't visited Paris had at least seen pictures, so while Paris or Notre Dame might be considered a romantic or attractive place, it wasn't a <i>mysterious</i> or unknown place. And while the Pyramids were common knowledge to anyone who had any exposure to National Geographic or similar sources, the pyramids were still a subject that most of us didn't know about; I remember being a kid in school and having my teacher tell me that archaeologists couldn't agree on HOW the pyramids were built... which almost sounds like a backhanded embrace of von Daniken's tales.Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12266640067204153712011-02-15T11:51:33.220-05:002011-02-15T11:51:33.220-05:00"As much as I loved this stuff as a kid in th..."As much as I loved this stuff as a kid in the '70s, it does kinda piss me off now. It completely discounts the ingenuity of humans."<br /><br />More specifically, it discounts the ingenuity of non-white humans. Von Daniken never says aliens built Stonehenge, the Parthenon, or Notre Dame - all impressive monuments reared by Europeans like himself. But he seems so honestly baffled by the idea that "brown" people could carve and stack rocks that his preferred explanation is UFO's.<br /><br />I hate to be PC and start imputing racism to authors without direct evidence, but I'm pretty sure it exists here. And unlike with Lovecraft, there's no redeeming artistic or entertainment value to dilute the bad taste. I find von Daniken's entire body of work nauseating and insulting on every level.TheShadowKnowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11073693648569864707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89024399461985283732011-02-15T09:27:37.616-05:002011-02-15T09:27:37.616-05:00I have to say, I get extremely irritated with the ...I have to say, I get extremely irritated with the "History Channel" putting this kind of crap in heavy rotation. I can see the young and/or gullable being easily confused by a supposed history channel having shows like this on continually. Just what our already academically struggling kids need!arcadaynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17025690624100512801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90664574964312361542011-02-15T04:21:05.355-05:002011-02-15T04:21:05.355-05:00As much as I loved this stuff as a kid in the '...As much as I loved this stuff as a kid in the '70s, it does kinda piss me off now. It completely discounts the ingenuity of humans. I also find humor in the current television show when they take a piece of archaeological evidence and state that it is "obviously" the work of ancient aliens. For example, the Egyptian representations of lotus flowers that are obviously light bulbs. They have an amazing ability to interpret anything as evidence of alien intervention.Narmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08635665594860371230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30416009237525247322011-02-15T01:51:22.307-05:002011-02-15T01:51:22.307-05:00FYI: There's book out called "The Cult o...FYI: There's book out called "The Cult of Alien Gods: H.P. Lovecraft and Extraterrestrial Pop Culture" that tries to establish a direct line line of influences from Lovecraft's fiction to Von Daniken and some other, more recent folks. I read it a few years ago and don't think that it made the case for direct intellectual influence that it was trying to argue, but it may be an interesting read noetheless:<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Alien-Gods-Lovecraft-Extraterrestial/dp/1591023521Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07448060787771911854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31292243846151034152011-02-15T01:45:29.366-05:002011-02-15T01:45:29.366-05:00Believe it or not, we watched the "In Search ...Believe it or not, we watched the "In Search of..." version of this in my junior high school science classes.... more than once.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07448060787771911854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12284493375929426022011-02-15T00:39:12.073-05:002011-02-15T00:39:12.073-05:00Chariot of the Gods is available in paperback from...Chariot of the Gods is available in paperback from Amazon:<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Chariots-Gods-Erich-von-Daniken/dp/0425166805/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297747978&sr=8-1<br /><br />http://www.amazon.ca/Chariots-Gods-Daniken-Von/dp/0425166805/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297748019&sr=8-1<br /><br />Looking for this took me to some really strange areas of the interweb:<br /><br />http://www.legendarytimes.com/index.phpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-92043107248454907542011-02-14T22:37:25.675-05:002011-02-14T22:37:25.675-05:00Also, Fortean Times has a daily 'weird news...Also, <a href="http://www.forteantimes.com/" rel="nofollow">Fortean Times</a> has a daily 'weird news' roundup, if anyone wants to stay on top of developments in High Weirdness. <br /><br />Captcha: 'fo rill,' haha.huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64009927335155234732011-02-14T22:35:24.038-05:002011-02-14T22:35:24.038-05:00Finding a copy of Chariots itself might be hard, a...Finding a copy of <i>Chariots</i> itself might be hard, actually. I haven't seen many out there. There's a lot of copies of <i>Gods of Outer Space</i> floating around, though. Might've had a larger print run.huthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502682297320819595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37182159134193995142011-02-14T21:43:50.108-05:002011-02-14T21:43:50.108-05:00Just as Daniken drew upon sources like the Shaver ...Just as Daniken drew upon sources like the Shaver Mystery and HPL, both were influenced in some way by Theosophy, one of the true fountainheads of modern fantasy, especially the American variety.Deucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00240457596421236288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76701962671164446082011-02-14T18:48:04.599-05:002011-02-14T18:48:04.599-05:00Why are people complaining about Chariots of the G...Why are people complaining about <i>Chariots of the Gods?</i> inclusion but not the inclusion of the Shaver Mystery? Shaver was (apparently) convinced that what he was writing about was real, and his publisher presented it as such.Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10745062840676790649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1716183192567581892011-02-14T17:24:08.702-05:002011-02-14T17:24:08.702-05:00Jason Colavito, in The cult of alien gods: H.P. Lo...Jason Colavito, in <i>The cult of alien gods: H.P. Lovecraft and extraterrestrial pop culture,</i> rather convincingly argues that von Daniken and company drew on Lovecraft for their basic ideas - not necessarily directly, but certainly through Lovecraft's influence on their sources.<br /><br />(I just posted something similar in the Kirby thread above, before noticing this one, where it fits better.)Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16985843455089174060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84986633154195594932011-02-14T17:16:41.028-05:002011-02-14T17:16:41.028-05:00I've felt the same way about Margaret Murray&#...I've felt the same way about Margaret Murray's <i>The God of the Witches</i>. As history, archaeology, anthropology or Egyptology it's pure BS, but as a source for campaign material it's awesome!Elfdarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17332202910754546307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4619327399340445122011-02-14T16:18:50.857-05:002011-02-14T16:18:50.857-05:00Sheesh, lighten up radnoff. I don't think Jam...Sheesh, lighten up radnoff. I don't think James is suggesting Chariots of the Gods be re-classified in public librarys. He's simply saying that if you choose to read it as such, the book makes for a ripping good pulp fiction yarn...Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00323022731513484213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28341991308056777442011-02-14T16:17:37.375-05:002011-02-14T16:17:37.375-05:00I am a bookseller and I would file it under "...I am a bookseller and I would file it under "utter tosh" but that's not to deny its potential for creative inspiration. Certainly Däniken's pseudohistorical notions, despite - or more likely because of - their outrageousness, became part of the zeitgeist in the 1970s and inspired a whole slew of fun stuff in that decade, much of which has been mentioned above (although I must just add the song "Inca Roads", arguably Frank Zappa's finest creation).ClawCarverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07236809815213343281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81443185730678526662011-02-14T15:43:03.329-05:002011-02-14T15:43:03.329-05:00@ Jeff Rients
Both
This book is more appropriate...@ Jeff Rients<br /><br />Both<br /><br />This book is more appropriate under the New Age/Metaphysics classifications.radnoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006466605445207729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27731607796494124692011-02-14T15:26:46.814-05:002011-02-14T15:26:46.814-05:00Oh, and as for this stuff being pulp fantasy, I ac...Oh, and as for this stuff being pulp fantasy, I actually disagree with James. I think pulp fiction is intended to be fiction. This other stuff is being passed off as "fact," whether out of ignorance, greed, or a honestly warped world view. The purpose serves to distinguish them, I think, though I agree 100% that you can read this schlock as pulp fiction and get the same effect as the real deal. I really like some of the Theosophist writers like Talbot Mundy who toed the line between these two worlds...Keith Sloanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319879076978887933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23754741703528342242011-02-14T15:13:01.629-05:002011-02-14T15:13:01.629-05:00The weirdness is still with us. Just look at all ...The weirdness is still with us. Just look at all the weird subject shows on cable tv (everything from Nostradamus to alien stuff), or in whackadoodle movies like 2012 (itself based on yet more weirdness without any basis even in the mythology from which it is derived).Keith Sloanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07319879076978887933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-23261034092905514312011-02-14T14:48:55.746-05:002011-02-14T14:48:55.746-05:00There are errors, and then there is humor.
Re: Do...There are errors, and then there is humor.<br /><br />Re: Doctor Who, the famous 3rd Doctor Ezekiel quoting scene. (Sadly, not the part commanding the use of wargaming with miniatures as a prophetic technique in ancient Jerusalem.)<br /><br />Re: Ignatius Donnelly, the patient folks at Librivox have made his Atlantis book into a free audiobook. Looking at the chapter listing, I saw his theory was more inclusive than I thought it was; it encompassed Peru. It probably is good to have his book done, though, since it was influential on a lot of fields in its own totally crazy way. It's a sort of American mythology, really.<br /><br />Re: love of the bizarre and hidden, I think that it's a stage most kids go through at some point, just like most kids go through a stage where they read a lot of folklore, sports books, or animal books; or really get into some kind of music.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64921966975320530402011-02-14T14:41:41.025-05:002011-02-14T14:41:41.025-05:00So, radnoff, are von Däniken's ideas insuffici...So, radnoff, are von Däniken's ideas insufficiently fantastic or is the paper they are printed on too high quality?Jeff Rientshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-75776538316557034822011-02-14T14:31:54.530-05:002011-02-14T14:31:54.530-05:00@James:
My point is obvious. "Chariots of th...@James:<br /><br />My point is obvious. "Chariots of the Gods" is not pulp fantasy. Your inclusion of it as pulp fantasy is an error.radnoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11006466605445207729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47910376830223815172011-02-14T14:16:12.410-05:002011-02-14T14:16:12.410-05:00Ah good memories. James P. Hogan's absolutely ...Ah good memories. James P. Hogan's absolutely brilliant 1977 classic takes some of these ideas, and spins them into an amazing and very rational SF tale. I won't give any spoilers but here's a blurb:<br /><br />The man on the moon was dead. They called him Charlie. He had big eyes, abundant body hair and fairly long nostrils. His skeletal body was found clad in a bright red spacesuit, hidden in a rocky grave. They didn't know who he was, how he got there, or what had killed him. All they knew was that his corpse was 50,000 years old -- and that meant that this man had somehow lived long before he ever could have existed!JBMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13915780514486101083noreply@blogger.com