tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6088472738058751576..comments2024-03-18T20:22:06.331-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: A Game of One's OwnJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger118125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-53668561135629152322009-10-11T11:15:19.312-04:002009-10-11T11:15:19.312-04:00Hear, hear!Hear, hear!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49959104522900991832009-10-11T09:19:29.241-04:002009-10-11T09:19:29.241-04:00Wally,
Why are you even here? From what I can tel...Wally,<br /><br />Why are you even here? From what I can tell, you have no affinity with the preferred way most of my readers play roleplaying games nor much interest in the early history of the hobby beyond using as a debate point to show how gaming has "evolved" since then. Your comments, though lengthy, border on the troll-ish. Your primary purpose here seems to be in rattling the dinosaur cages and that's something I simply won't abide.<br /><br />My recommendation would be to leave us befuddled old fools alone to wallow in our ignorance of the Truth. I think we'll all be happier that way.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87726887208340322882009-10-11T08:50:43.651-04:002009-10-11T08:50:43.651-04:00We do not like storytelling games.
Yes, I know. A...<em>We do not like storytelling games.</em><br /><br />Yes, I know. And as I've suggested and even said a few times, your absolutism on this point likely places you in a small minority.<br /><br />Storytelling =/= Forge<br /><br /><em>If even 1% OF 1% of gamers are into "Forgey" story games, I would be quite surprised.</em><br /><br />The #2 RPG publisher has been White Wolf for a long time now, correct? And they have a pretty sizable player base - three years ago they held 26% of the RPG market. Are White Wolf games good storytelling tools? Well, who knows. But they do represent an attempt to bring dramatic/narrative specification into adventure-gaming rules.<br /><br />And Those Darn Kids just gobble 'em up.<br /><br /><em>To address point 1)The best we can say is that plenty of gamers like it when their game adds up to some kind of entertaining narrative. Which IMO, is little surprise to anyone. But demand for rules to shape it? Harder to tell.</em><br /><br />Out of curiosity, have you read the new 4e DMG2? I've mentioned it a couple of times in these threads. The first few dozen pages are by Robin Laws, and are explicit advice for integrating 'indie'-type storytelling techniques and dramatic structure(s) into D&D games. Maybe there wasn't demand for these rules, I don't know.<br /><br /><em>I don't want to play in a game where the priority is to generate a story (especially when, as has been pointed out repeatedly in other venues, the types of stories being generated are by and large at the soap opera/"Grey's Anatomy" level of storytelling -- not exactly sophisticated and intellectually challenging stuff even if those who champion it like to pretend otherwise).</em><br /><br />I'll bite my tongue here and just point out the glass house you're living in, with the words 'Appendix N' on the mailbox. D&D players don't actually get to criticize anyone else's chosen subject matter on the grounds of puerility and simplicity. :)<br /><br /><em>Wrong. "Most players" stopped playing tabletop RPGs c. 1985, moved on to computer games, and are now playing World of Warcraft, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the sort of "storytelling" you're talking about.</em><br /><br />I would guess that WoW doesn't attract tabletop gamers <em>in particular</em>. You're right to emphasize its importance. But the tabletop hobby still retains a few million players, and I'm contrasting them with those who think <em>Dragonlance</em> represents a BAD THING in RPG history. i.e. With your almost nonexistent 'old-school' affinity group.<br /><br />In my ideal world this thread would be like 4e - everybody wins! Nobody ever ever hurts! Skills have random outcomes rather than narrated ones! Hey wait...Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-120723005465946502009-10-09T13:49:32.687-04:002009-10-09T13:49:32.687-04:00"Your arrogance with which you demean those p..."Your arrogance with which you demean those players who play either different editions or different gaming styles -where they like to tell stories- is astounding."<br /><br />It's not demeaning to point out the obvious: That this segment of RPG gaming is, and always has been, so small as to be statistically insignificant. <br /><br />If even 1% OF 1% of gamers are into "Forgey" story games, I would be quite surprised.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24927851126644789932009-10-09T06:15:57.529-04:002009-10-09T06:15:57.529-04:00T.Foster wrote
"Wrong. "Most players&quo...T.Foster wrote<br />"Wrong. "Most players" stopped playing tabletop RPGs c. 1985,"<br /><br />Let me assure you that there are a few players who started RPGs after 85'.<br /><br />T.Foster wrote:<br />"...moved on to computer games, and are now playing World of Warcraft, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the sort of "storytelling" you're talking about. Furthermore, most players who are still involved in tabletop RPGs are playing 4E D&D, which also has pretty much nothing to do with the sort of storytelling you're talking about."<br /><br />Your arrogance with which you demean those players who play either different editions or different gaming styles -where they like to tell stories- is astounding.<br />Furthermore you do not deliever any examples to you statements. Show me some evidence of migration from RPGs to Computer games within the age group of gamers that already played RPGs 85' and I conce that you are right. At the moment you just state your opinion.<br />Mind you, I do not deny that RPGs are in decline since the 80ties!<br />And lastly, neither you nor any non WoC employee knows the real numbers of how many copies of 4th edition were sold. For all that we know, there might still be more people playing 3rd edition than 4th.<br /><br />T.Foster wrote:<br />"So even in the small picture of current RPG players you're wrong; and in the big picture of all historical RPG players you're really, really wrong."<br /><br />Again, your arrogance is astounding. You do not speak for all players! You do not even speak for the majority of players! Using your own argumentation from above: if the majority of players is playing 4th edition and New School you as "hardcore" OS gamer can hardly be their voice, can you?KristianHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00232005660954059260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52461901348387408022009-10-09T06:09:30.331-04:002009-10-09T06:09:30.331-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.KristianHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00232005660954059260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80022012230014673552009-10-09T05:46:07.977-04:002009-10-09T05:46:07.977-04:00Nagora said:
The touchstone for an RPG is this: if...Nagora said:<br />The touchstone for an RPG is this: if you as a player can freely define what constitutes "winning" for you (including "nothing"), then it's a role-playing game. If the game, or the GM, defines it for you, then it's not. It might still be fun, of course.<br /><br />So CoC is not a rolepalying game then?<br />I mean, the game rules pretty much define that my PC will go mad sooner or later or die horribly in an adventure.<br />So "winning" in CoC is defined as surviving another adventure more or less sane.<br />An that, after your definition, is no roleplaying game.KristianHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00232005660954059260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45991075709882563502009-10-08T18:00:19.923-04:002009-10-08T18:00:19.923-04:00James V:
However, it does mean that someone is giv...James V:<br /><i>However, it does mean that someone is giving me their opinion of what makes a great story. </i><br /><br />And what I think is a good story is one which confounds my expectations, bucks the general literary forms etc (Elric is an example that springs to mind). This is why we play with other people: because of the different, <i>unexpected</i> elements we each bring to the table.<br /><br />(I am correct in assuming that a sub-game of RPGs is for the players to confound the DM's expectations of the scenario? And this is a good thing, right?)<br /><br />Rules telling me how to create what the rules writer thinks makes a good story are therefore unwelcome.<br /><br />And yes, anecdote generation is a byproduct of <i>all</i> gaming and sports, however boring they might be to people who weren't there (eg. "golf stories").Chris Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064988977152302364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55300147466183672502009-10-08T17:19:52.366-04:002009-10-08T17:19:52.366-04:00The touchstone for an RPG is this: if you as a pla...The touchstone for an RPG is this: if you as a player can freely define what constitutes "winning" for you (including "nothing"), then it's a role-playing game. If the game, or the GM, defines it for you, then it's not. It might still be fun, of course.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2316865404622547882009-10-08T14:32:21.617-04:002009-10-08T14:32:21.617-04:00"OD&D shows us that game design is someth..."OD&D shows us that game design is something that happens at the game table more than at the game company that produced the original rulebook."<br /><br />This is a good thing. Thanks, James!Carter Soleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01286436801953647693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7931836023648130612009-10-08T13:06:16.211-04:002009-10-08T13:06:16.211-04:00It would take a ton of space to copy each point in...It would take a ton of space to copy each point in its entirety, so I'll just put up the headings to mark each category:<br /><br />Disclaimer: Each response is according to my experience, of course.<br /><br /><i>Dodge</i><br />Storytelling guidance is unwanted, because it is unneeded. A story is naturally created through the events in the game. IMO, rules come in handy to adjudicate player activities, the aggregate of which creates a story. In all of the games I played, you might see them (and I would relate them) as a collection of those anecdotes you're not so fond of. Parse that chatter, however and you get a narrative, you get a plot, you get a story. All of this without any guidance from the rules. I'm not saying that I can stick them bewteen covers and sell them at the local B&N, but we enjoyed it, and that's all that matters.<br /><br />About your last two points there? Try not to equivocate the internet with the RPG community at large. Sure, there are tons of people dickering over this stuff on blogs and webfora, but proving they represent real demand for rules for story? Tougher to prove. The best we got is a study from WoTC* that tries to categorize the player base distinct from any consideration of rules. <br /><br />To address point 1)The best we can say is that plenty of gamers like it when their game adds up to some kind of entertaining narrative. Which IMO, is little surprise to anyone. But demand for rules to shape it? Harder to tell.<br /><br />Though to address point 2)The most popular game in the market (D&D) has remained so and will likely remain so, apparently despite lacking rules that explicitly guide or shape the creation of story. As a matter of fact, it may prove that what gamers have really wanted over the past 35 years is a set of rules that are consistent across a wide variety of situations, to reduce the GM's need to adjudicate.<br /><br /><i>False equivalence</i><br />I will make a consession here. Perhaps "right" is the wrong word for what I was describing. How about "optimal"?<br /><br />Beyond that all you can prove is that a niche of people seeking games with story "optimizing" rules exists. I completely agree. The rest is speculation on your part. Even if I take the risk of using internet buzz as an example, D&D 4 and Pathfinder, which have a lot of internet eyeballs on it, are still very traditional games in regard to its rules. And with the examples you gave, WoD is the only game that I think people could agree has serious market presence (Though CoC is pretty cool).<br /><br /><i>Misrepresentation</i><br />Again, "right" was a poor choice of words. But even then, the story-type games that have been showing up do more than present suggestions. The whole point of this discussion is that they are also making rules in regard to story: shaping the way the game plays to encourage certain behaviors. <br />It's fine that they exist and there are folks out there that are tickled pink by them. However, it does mean that someone is giving me their opinion of what makes a great story. For that to actually work with a storygame, the player has to agree with not only the opinion on story, but how that opinion affects the way the game works! Because if the player doesn't it can actually affect their character's ability to function.<br /><br />I'd rather have a game that lets me make those kinds of decisions for myself.<br /><br /><i>BONUS</i><br />Every RPG is a series of anecdotes, just because you have to parse them to create the story does not make it poorer. You are right, an improvised story is not the same thing as what an RPG does. If what you are doing is the former, you are not playing the latter.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13973301663176412762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-9237536038441658042009-10-08T12:58:05.341-04:002009-10-08T12:58:05.341-04:00You may not like it, but those kinds of rules repr...<i>You may not like it, but those kinds of rules represent a big step forward for RPGs in the eyes of most players (and, incidentally, most designers by the looks of it).</i><br /><br />Wrong. "Most players" stopped playing tabletop RPGs c. 1985, moved on to computer games, and are now playing World of Warcraft, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the sort of "storytelling" you're talking about. Furthermore, most players who are still involved in tabletop RPGs are playing 4E D&D, which also has pretty much nothing to do with the sort of storytelling you're talking about. So even in the small picture of current RPG players you're wrong; and in the big picture of all historical RPG players you're really, really wrong.<br /><br /><i>I know that I'll get stories from OSR types about their games. I also know that improvising a structured story in the moment is totally different from sharing an anecdote about a great day around the table ten years ago. I don't play games to generate anecdotes. Neither do you! Let's not confuse these activities, eh?</i><br /><br />I suppose in a very narrow sense this is correct in that I don't play games to generate anecdotes -- they're something that arise naturally (or don't -- there are plenty of satisfying sessions I've played in that I haven't felt any need to talk about afterwords). BUT I don't play games to generate stories either. It's not just that this isn't my number 1 priority, it's honest-to-goodness NOT A PRIORITY AT ALL. I don't want to play in a game where the priority is to generate a story (especially when, as has been pointed out repeatedly in other venues, the types of stories being generated are by and large at the soap opera/"Grey's Anatomy" level of storytelling -- not exactly sophisticated and intellectually challenging stuff even if those who champion it like to pretend otherwise). I play games for the challenge, for the fellowship of the other players, and for the immersion in the created worlds and characters. None of those, not even the last, have anything to do with telling stories.Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73530702613881892252009-10-08T12:19:20.861-04:002009-10-08T12:19:20.861-04:00"...we can agree that these are worthwhile go..."...we can agree that these are worthwhile goals for a storytelling game, right?... I don't play games to generate anecdotes. Neither do you!"<br /><br />Man, you are just completely off the deep end. <br /><br /><i>We do not like storytelling games.</i><br /><br />I <i>do</i> play games to generate anecdotes.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12860180453003122912009-10-08T10:55:50.486-04:002009-10-08T10:55:50.486-04:00Did you just imply there's a difference betwee...<em>Did you just imply there's a difference between GMing and roleplaying?</em><br /><br />Oh no - I'm asserting a difference between the kind of interest this (self-selecting demographically-narrow affinity group) commenter crowd has in RPGs, on the one hand, and what I take to be the draw of RPGs for most players. I stand by that, though on rereading my comment I think I'm projecting my own narrative focus onto players who probably just want to roll dice and shit around with their friends. In any case I doubt that the average RPer has been particularly interested in ruleset tinkering since the early 80's. That's like starting a rock band because you're really interested in how microphones work.<br /><br /><em>Old-Scoolers are not disinterested in "story". Yes, the definition of what "story" is and how it occurs in an RPG has changed, and there is a definite gap there. At the same time, I feel safe in saying that if you ask any old-schooler, GM or PC, about their games, you will most definitely get a story!<br /><br />In a way you sized the gap accurately.<br /><br />OS - Story doesn't need guidance to happen.<br />NS - Story needs guidance to make sure it happens "right".<br /><br />Old-schoolers get cranky if a game or its rules suggest there's a right way to tell a story, and if you ask me, quite a few games today do try just that.</em><br /><br />This claim is wrong and unfair on a few levels: you're employing a dodge, a false equivalence, and a misrepresentation.<br /><br />Dodge: D&D has indeed given detailed instructions on how to play from the <em>Basic</em> days onward - and of course AD&D is a <em>very</em> opinionated ruleset, storywise. But my point here is that OD&D was a story-game that treated storytelling as a second-class activity <em>in terms of the rules</em>, even though shared collaborative storytelling is the basic activity of even primitive roleplaying games like OD&D! See what I'm saying? 'Old-school' folks insist that storytelling guidance is unwanted even though (1) plenty of gamers obviously want it and (2) the last 35 years have shown the value of constraint and evocation in ruleset treatments of storytelling.<br /><br />False equivalence: Systems as various as WoD, <em>My Life with Master</em>, <em>GURPS Goblins</em> (ingenious), and <em>Call of Cthulhu</em> are interested in very specific kinds of storytelling - so they present rules that guide players toward those stories, forms, and styles. Why would any RPer gravitate toward such a thing? Because she WANTS to tell those stories. Because she's not interested in a boys' adventure wargame that happens to involve narration, but in a game in which narration, dramatic-conflict resolution, and story control are first-class subjects in the rules' eyes. You may not like it, but those kinds of rules represent a big step forward for RPGs in the eyes of most players (and, incidentally, most designers by the looks of it).<br /><br />Misrepresentation: Nah, 'new school' rulesets don't want you to tell your story 'right.' Rather, they tend to offer suggestions for noticing that your storytelling is improving. Getting richer, more complex, streamlined, dynamic; less egocentric, plot-obsessed, generically hidebound...we can agree that these are worthwhile goals for a storytelling game, right? If a game states up front that <em>more complex storytelling</em> is one of its play goals, then its rules should foster more complex storytelling. That doesn't involve having an 'ideal' story in mind any more than the goal of a creative writing class it to produce a word-for-word copy of <em>Don Quixote</em>.<br /><br />BONUS sidestep: I know that I'll get stories from OSR types about their games. I also know that improvising a structured story in the moment is totally different from sharing an anecdote about a great day around the table ten years ago. I don't play games to generate anecdotes. Neither do you! Let's not confuse these activities, eh?Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85146069273975592742009-10-08T01:17:41.886-04:002009-10-08T01:17:41.886-04:00KristianH said: "One query to you: It seems t...KristianH said: "One query to you: It seems to me, that you used a 3rd edition rather than a OD&D approach. Did you try just to go with "the flow" and adjust rulings if you needed them? For example using the "hide" and/or "move silently" skill as an indikator if it can surprise the party? High skill = surprise on 1-3 on d6?"<br /><br />Answers are generally "no". I wanted to scrupulously use a base that was cut out from 3E, and thus solidly legal for publication under the OGL. I wanted to iron out obvious problems if they occured to me before play. I wanted to get the Hide/Move, etc. skill modifiers out of the notes entirely so as to have stat blocks of OD&D size (specifically, <a href="http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2007/04/magic-number-seven.html" rel="nofollow">about 7 items long</a>).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-46833823520842149092009-10-07T22:19:25.955-04:002009-10-07T22:19:25.955-04:00"I don't understand how you could think t..."I don't understand how you could think that OD&D's original intent was in part to provide a way to fight monsters."<br /><br />There's a big difference between fighting monsters and <i>encountering</i> monsters.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36102311068760591462009-10-07T21:30:03.273-04:002009-10-07T21:30:03.273-04:00RPG's are a bit like a schoolyard game. The a...RPG's are a bit like a schoolyard game. The adults demonstrate it, but there's little formal instruction. When the children are left alone, they play using whatever rules the group agrees to. <br /><br />Most RPG's, not just OD&D, imply, if not demand, involvement in the creation of the game's rules. Perhaps 4e is an exception. I haven't played it. That's fine, since not everybody wants to be an game designer. <br /><br />What an RPG should do is provide a set of core mechanics (character creation, resolving challenges and conflict) and options and ideas for play, which may be expanded or contracted to the group's desires.jdh417https://www.blogger.com/profile/14541882649762424101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3124272801855463202009-10-07T21:28:14.232-04:002009-10-07T21:28:14.232-04:00""So if a game--like OD&D which stre...""So if a game--like OD&D which stresses fighting monsters-"<br /><br />You lost me right there"<br /><br />It's easier to dismiss thoughts you disagree with then actually consider why people think that way. You might disagree, but that doesn't mean they are wrong.<br /><br />Maybe you should take a look at some of the adventures OD&D offered. The massive dungeons of rooms upon rooms of monsters. Keep on the Borderlands is an excellent adventure that focused around killing monsters.<br /><br />Consider the first three big books for AD&D, 1/3 of the coverage was monsters.<br /><br />This isn't to say that monster killing isn't the only things OD&D was about. Hardly. But monster killing was a big part of the game. Fighting monsters was one thing it stressed. Again, with a portion of each book dedicated to fighting those monsters, with an entire book about those monsters to fight, and a large number of adventures where there was room after room of monsters to fight, I don't understand how you could think that OD&D's original intent was in part to provide a way to fight monsters.<br /><br />But be dismissive instead. It's easier.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07422374902421619115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38778572953768558752009-10-07T18:08:39.068-04:002009-10-07T18:08:39.068-04:00Akiva,
I think I see why people think you said OD&...Akiva,<br />I think I see why people think you said OD&D is crappy. Here's the first paragraph of your first post:<br />"I find it interesting that what most people would view as a flaw--that the rules are at times incoherent and have holes in them--is here seen as a virtue. I disagree--if a wargame or cardgame had incoherent rules, I'd think it was a crappy game. I don't see why RPGs should be different."<br /><br />In the first sentence, you say that OD&D's rules are "at times incoherent"; you then go on to say that you would consider a wargame or cardgame with incoherent rules "crappy," and that RPGs should be held to the same standard. Since you said that OD&D's rules are incoherent, it follows that you would consider it crappy. You may not in fact consider OD&D crappy, but the inference is sound.John Harper Brinegarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17592827787099084705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87313911654736963062009-10-07T16:54:58.342-04:002009-10-07T16:54:58.342-04:00As to "Last Night on Earth," I don't...<i>As to "Last Night on Earth," I don't know that game, but I probably would find what you describe as a problem. Again, that's fine. I think, however, that most players and reviewers *would* see that as a problem--which doesn't make it a problem for everyone. I think, however, that my view about RPGs is fairly commonly held--if someone put out a SF game with no rules/discussion of different atmospheres and gravities, for example, would probably be seen as flawed by most people.</i><br /><br />Speaking of Last Night on Earth- I can't say for sure whether "most gamers" find the pieces without rules to be a problem or not, but I will point out that it seems pretty popular and highly rated on Board Game Geek, fwiw. <br /><br />Back to OD&D- Just a quick point about my own gaming style- nostalgia might bring me back to a game for a single session or so, but if the game itself didn't work in any major way, I wouldn't stick with it beyond that. I've been playing OD&D for about five months now, and having a blast with it.TyBannermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241483332119936529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29173416368105560862009-10-07T16:43:25.557-04:002009-10-07T16:43:25.557-04:00"Apparently, visiting OS discussion areas and..."Apparently, visiting OS discussion areas and engaging in conversation with OS-gamers is an invitation to be insulted."<br /><br />No, that would be the Internet.<br /><br />As far as I can see Akiva was never actually insulted for his choice of game. Korgoth did draw an analogy with pre-made toys and kit toys/models which was a bit harsh, but not especially so, IMO, and on reflection it is actually quite a good illustration.<br /><br />In a vague attempt to steer the conversation away from who stabbed who, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to Bob Alberti's Tekumel rules:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.tekumel.com/gaming_advHTPT.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.tekumel.com/gaming_advHTPT.html</a><br /><br />These rules are, IMO, the greatest set ever devised for role-playing <b>provided</b> that the GM has Barker's sourcebooks which describe the world in question. Using my PoV: this is the absolute maximum cruch to fluff ratio possible. The campaign world is deeply detailed in well-written prose while the rules (the fluff) are reduced to a few paragraphs covering character generation and task resolution.<br /><br />The rule-system is about as incomplete as it's possible to be, but that's fine because the GM has all the information needed to fill in the gaps as needed.<br /><br />The role of a rule-set is, IMO, to fill in gaps where source material of this quality is not available. I could certainly sit down tomorrow and play a Lord of the Rings game with Bob's rules and be sure of doing a better job than any published LotR game.<br /><br />One could devise a set of rules which would allow a GM who had never read LotR to run a game in Middle Earth but surely we would all agree that such a rule set would be second-best to having a GM who simply knows how the world works and can smoothly and fairly run a game in it without reference to rule books?<br /><br />Such an ideal is very rare and, as I said earlier, the question is when does "support" turn into "cage"? It's different for everyone, but for me early D&D came closer to the right balance than any professionally published set of rules I've ever seen.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934827653905274555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32985937048993003712009-10-07T16:35:43.542-04:002009-10-07T16:35:43.542-04:00I cannot resist quoting Sayre's law, though I ...I cannot resist quoting Sayre's law, though I am sure everyone knows it:<br /><br />"In any dispute, the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the stakes at issue."<br /><br />I mean this as an insult to no one, it merely seemed apropos.LCMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000605927262574842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-47455454479742301902009-10-07T15:00:47.441-04:002009-10-07T15:00:47.441-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.metamorphosissigmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18163514061779555557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22027766898211186242009-10-07T14:51:51.372-04:002009-10-07T14:51:51.372-04:00"That's not what I said--I said that I ha..."That's not what I said--I said that I hated being insulted for the games I like."<br /><br />Is that really that common, though?<br /><br />I often see a lot of sentiment to the effect that "Jesus, ElfDwarfDragonBash Revised Edition is a worthless piece of ****."<br /><br />I rarely, if ever, see individual posters told things like "Jesus, you're a worthless piece of **** for playing ElfDwarfDragonBash Revised Edition."<br /><br />Then again, I do see a lot of people who conflate their selves with their hobbies to an unusual and arguably unhealthy degree and treat these two sorts of statements as one in the same.Will Mistrettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76744020116150395252009-10-07T14:48:19.801-04:002009-10-07T14:48:19.801-04:00Will Mistreta wrote: But can you expect to encount...Will Mistreta wrote: <i>But can you expect to encounter some pretty strident negative opinions on certain games in places like OSR blogs, Dragonsfoot, Knights and Knaves, etc. It's the nature of the beast.<br /><br />If you're prone to interpret those as insults, that's up to you. </i><br /><br />Being called an inferior gamer <b>is</b> an insult; it's not just that some of us take it as such. Saying that you like or dislike a certain game is fine; implying that I'm a moron because I disagree with your taste is very insulting.Akivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17962605092009953080noreply@blogger.com