tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6177885484039030101..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Random Roll: DMG, p. 110 (Part II)James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78653216148656537762021-07-22T00:44:36.226-04:002021-07-22T00:44:36.226-04:00The worst encounter I've ever had with a playe...The worst encounter I've ever had with a player was when I was starting up a Pathfinder campaign in Japan. He proudly presented me with a character "build," arguing that he should be able to throw several darts per round (as a first-level druid) and that part of his starting equipment was bottles of wine that his character would sell in town in return for several hundred GP.<br /><br />This wasn't the worst possible munchkinism, but nor was it in keeping with the tenor of campaign I was aiming for, so I said No. But he thought it would be appropriate to start a huge fight about it, repeatedly citing "Rules As Written" and ignoring DM prerogative, and culminating in him calling me a rapist (!?!) after I told him flatly that the discussion was over.<br /><br />He'd always rubbed me the wrong way so kicking him out of the campaign and cutting off all contact at this point wasn't exactly tragic, but I still marvel at the fact that somebody was willing to burn things to the ground so completely in the real world just because his paper man didn't get a special rules-lawyery boost to wealth and damage output.Confanityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361443460498670841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-26375099171408739042021-07-14T03:23:02.103-04:002021-07-14T03:23:02.103-04:00How can lacking an interior monologue lead to soci...How can lacking an interior monologue lead to socially awkward situations? I’m mystified.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-21370154069106739472021-07-13T14:25:46.123-04:002021-07-13T14:25:46.123-04:00Not sure, actually! My sense is that it's rece...Not sure, actually! My sense is that it's recent enough that it has not, though there's been some interesting anecdotal follow-up. As with anosmiacs, it seems like at least some people who lack an interior monologue kind of pretend that they have one to avoid socially awkward situations. I think the research into atypical inner speech is also pretty interesting, in that there may well be "levels" of monologueJasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17808216932213232929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19639294157910585802021-07-12T16:39:22.480-04:002021-07-12T16:39:22.480-04:00My college group, which was large, had to invoke t...My college group, which was large, had to invoke the "if you tell someone to do something when you aren't there, they explicitly are forbidden from doing that exact thing" rule. This kept spotlight hogs from hogging the spotlight even when their character wasn't there and provided space for more...passive (slow? shy? It varied.)...players time to work out what they were going to do. It set a norm for the gaming group that helped roleplay and provided space for all the players.<br /><br />I tended to run into the more petulant players in board games. Mostly people with low frustration tolerances who needed to learn to grow up, no matter how old they actually were.PatrickWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02083947433803227063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-35131019585302943372021-07-11T13:35:30.691-04:002021-07-11T13:35:30.691-04:00I think the best response I ever heard from a DM t...I think the best response I ever heard from a DM to a rude player is, "keep this up and I'm going to kill off your PC!"Old Black Staffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15673828726570977353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64989340390831649592021-07-11T12:24:18.960-04:002021-07-11T12:24:18.960-04:00And given that the average videogame player is a t...And given that the average videogame player is a teenager or younger, emotional and social immaturity is to be expected in MMOs.<br /><br />But so many RPGers who do this nonsense are (technically) adults.<br /><br />If it's just that humans have issues, then every game played by adults would be plagued by this issue. But they aren't. It's primarily RPGs that are. What is it about RPGs that attract that type of personality and/or encourage this type of behavior?Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24635644170862684092021-07-11T09:49:08.105-04:002021-07-11T09:49:08.105-04:00Sorry, I don't know what it means to blow up p...Sorry, I don't know what it means to blow up planes. Is that like rules lawyering?Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19015916043625862392021-07-11T08:21:39.670-04:002021-07-11T08:21:39.670-04:00Not necessarily- many are but there are other genr...Not necessarily- many are but there are other genres of MMO - FPS, RTS, etc. All have griefers (people who blow up planes before other players can get them, etc)<br />Kevin J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12822203839411266747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65048563588294579932021-07-11T00:56:36.757-04:002021-07-11T00:56:36.757-04:00Another good one is Monster Derby. A bunch of mons...Another good one is Monster Derby. A bunch of monsters race and battle. Each player ranks the monsters in order they hope they win. Players take turns moving the monsters to try and influence the order of winning. It does become somewhat clear which monsters each player hopes will come in up front or in back, but usually there is suspense right up until the end.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-64315282892536323392021-07-10T17:08:46.324-04:002021-07-10T17:08:46.324-04:00Oh, and Nexus Ops is another good multiplayer batt...Oh, and Nexus Ops is another good multiplayer battle game that avoids player elimination, turtling, compound interest, and advantages based on turn order, and keeps the identity of the leader somewhat masked. (You need 12 points to win and good players will often arrange to get a large proportion of those on their final turn,)Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55502066651170927572021-07-10T17:03:06.656-04:002021-07-10T17:03:06.656-04:00I’ll have to look up Riddle of the Ring and Barbar...I’ll have to look up Riddle of the Ring and Barbarian Kingdom and Empire.<br /><br />If you like 18xx and 3M’s Acquire, you might like Reiner Knizia’s best auction games, like Ra and Modern Art and Beowulf: The Legend (as opposed to Beowulf: The Movie - Knizia is perhaps too prolific for his own good though he’s made a lot of other great games of other types).<br /><br />It’s expensive but, if you get the chance to play, I’d recommend trying Cthulhu Wars (designed by Sandy Petersen!). Some of the scoring is hidden, so unless someone is way out in the lead, players can’t target an obvious leader. That said, it is a game of skill, so better players will often take a handicap to prevent overwhelming new players.<br /><br />Cosmic Encounter is a lighter classic too.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83125192617219899202021-07-10T16:47:58.302-04:002021-07-10T16:47:58.302-04:00Thanks! Those were very interesting but only the ...Thanks! Those were very interesting but only the second one explicitly backs the assertion. Has Hurlburt’s work been replicated?Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-6246308617785242812021-07-10T14:31:33.141-04:002021-07-10T14:31:33.141-04:00Ah, be careful of talking about Monopoly in that w...Ah, be careful of talking about Monopoly in that way... For one thing, there are some common ways of playing that actually aren't supported by the rules...<br /><br />But yes, RPGs are a different animal than any other type of game. The freedom to do things not explicit in the rules that require adjudication is a huge part of their appeal. Of course this means that there's a tension between the players (and GM if the game has one), where players are always pushing the envelope and the GM or other players are going to push back sometimes. The envelope pushing can get out of hand, and the pushing back can get out of hand.<br /><br />I think the problems increase the more stake one has in one's character and the more risk to that character. That kind of stake creates winning and losing (despite many RPG texts talking about how there aren't winners and losers - the truth is there are, even if there is no final win condition, there certainly are final lose conditions...).Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-37936000482597351232021-07-10T14:26:10.364-04:002021-07-10T14:26:10.364-04:00Good point on playing for hours when you clearly c...Good point on playing for hours when you clearly can't win... That's why I also prefer games where it's not so clear until close to the end who has potential to win. It can be a problem with games where there are those in the running and those not, but the play would get upset if they actually were eliminated. Another bad one is slow death, where you know you're losing but you're not out yet.<br /><br />In the end, there's actually relatively few board games I like...<br /><br />I found ICE's Riddle of the Ring really interesting. One of the few games where it seemed like 3 players could play and it wasn't 2 players gang up on the third. Also, while multiple players could be positioned for the win, the win could flip at the last moment, and going for the win just took a few turns.<br /><br />Another game I love is Barbarian Kingdom and Empire played in the "endless" scenario, where at any point you can decide your position is untenable and you can bail out. It can even be strategic to bail out. And new players can join at any time. Only once did I have an unfun game because two players colluded. I also played an all nighter where it was clear one player was going to win, but we all kept trying to get a good run. The very long game was fun and engaging.<br /><br />I also like economic games like the 18xx series railroad games and Avalon Hill's Acquire. They can have definite probable winners, but can still be fun. And a player not in position to win can still influence who will win which can be fun, try to make the likely 2nd place player win.<br /><br />On a flip side, I always hated the Avalon Hill historical games where the winning conditions were to actually win the battle, yet the battle really wasn't "balanced". So you didn't win just by doing better than historically, no, you actually had to WIN...<br /><br />I've also played some games with hopelessly unbalanced scenarios. I used to be into Starfire. Once, when introducing it to a player, I suggested we skip the 1st scenario due to it's imbalance. I had solo played it many times trying to get a win for the other side. Nope. But the new player wanted to start with that scenario. OK, then you take the side that's going to win. Nope. OK then... Predictably he rage quit when he lost...Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-73602075894370088932021-07-10T13:02:09.378-04:002021-07-10T13:02:09.378-04:00Isn't an MMO a form of RPG?Isn't an MMO a form of RPG? <br />Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54396171932905557502021-07-10T12:55:51.508-04:002021-07-10T12:55:51.508-04:00Arguing whether it was a ball or a strike isn'...Arguing whether it was a ball or a strike isn't being a rules lawyer. But don't take my word for it. :)<br /><br />"Rules lawyer: A role-playing game enthusiast who makes it his life's work to memorize every obscure rule in the game. Usually owns every book and supplement for the game in question. Often uses obscure rules to show up other gamers." -urbandictionary<br /><br />"A rules lawyer is a participant in a rules-based environment who attempts to use the letter of the law without reference to the spirit, usually in order to gain an advantage within that environment... <br />The habit of players to argue in a legal fashion over rule implementation was noted early on in the history of Dungeons & Dragons." -wikipedia<br /><br />None of this behavior is happening on the baseball diamond. Whereas it plagues our hobby. Everyone here has experience with this issue, and strategies to deal with it. Do MLB players? Of course not. <br /><br />And it was Veeck who said, "Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off."<br /><br />A true rules lawyer would beg to differ. :)Etrimynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12412524174369676893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79828391240767063972021-07-10T09:35:37.134-04:002021-07-10T09:35:37.134-04:00The statements Gygax says about attacking troubles...The statements Gygax says about attacking troublesome players with an ethereal mummy are indeed petulant and childish, but honestly, even back in junior-high when I read the DMG for the first time, I didn't take that seriously. Seemed more like winking humor to me.<br /><br />Even if he was being serious though, it should be considered that RPGs were a relatively new thing back then and running the game was a work in progress. Also, I gather that a lot of Gygax's game play came from running sessions at cons, where you have no control over who is at your table to game. It's not just your friends, whom you have already vetted their personalities. I can imagine getting riled up about the actions of some rando trolls at my table quite easily.Duglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04952607750940479779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30751936071549759482021-07-10T09:09:55.094-04:002021-07-10T09:09:55.094-04:00Sure thing!
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...Sure thing! <br /><br />https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02019/full<br /><br />https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/pristine-inner-experience/201110/not-everyone-conducts-inner-speech<br /><br />https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/internal-speech-is-driven-by-predictive-brain-signal.html<br /><br />Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17808216932213232929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50756930281937381762021-07-09T20:28:06.607-04:002021-07-09T20:28:06.607-04:00Could you reference some of that research. I have...Could you reference some of that research. I have never before heard that assertion about a lack of inner monologue. In literature on reading, “rauding”, the subvocalization of the written word, was/is considered one of five standard modes of reading (alongside scanning, skimming, learning, and memorization).Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40217698760815204922021-07-09T19:48:06.111-04:002021-07-09T19:48:06.111-04:00I think the difference here is in scope. I mean, y...I think the difference here is in scope. I mean, you *can* imagine yourself on a field of conflict when you play chess, but you don't have to. Similarly, you *can* imagine yourself traveling around the country with your ever-growing family when you play Life, but you don't need to. After all, the rules are the rules. RPGs by their nature ask us to put our imaginations forward. Without that, the game becomes more or less an assemblage of tables and formulas. Interesting tables and formulas, but that's not really the point. There's some really interesting research into people's "inner voice." Like, when you read a novel and you "hear" the characters' dialogue in your head. Or just when you have an inner debate with yourself. Research has suggested that a LOT of people do not have an inner monologue, and I do wonder whether this contributes to certain tableside shenanigans, especially if you can't "hear" the fiction of the game unfolding inside your own mind. Anyway, just thoughts! Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17808216932213232929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68355454543546802282021-07-09T17:55:13.493-04:002021-07-09T17:55:13.493-04:00Has that changed? I wonder if some of it has to d...Has that changed? I wonder if some of it has to do with just being kids. People (“adults” too) still troll/grief/flame each other nowadays.<br /><br />I do remember games I was in as a kid where the party had an internal fight and split in two. I also remember one D&D game where one of my characters was a trickster fairy who used an illusion to make others in the party think they’d found a scrith sword; when they discovered it wasn’t real (no one got hurt in the process) they pounded the other (innocent) character I was playing. Do things like this happen much nowadays or was this sort of behavior particular to the era? Also, these actions don’t sound like what EGG was complaining about.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66478103803435774492021-07-09T17:35:02.445-04:002021-07-09T17:35:02.445-04:00Diplomacy has the reputation of breaking friendshi...Diplomacy has the reputation of breaking friendships without rules lawyering. It’s a matter of players being unaware of what they’re signing up for.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-33242665971343263762021-07-09T17:33:09.350-04:002021-07-09T17:33:09.350-04:00I’d say it’s worse to be stuck playing a game for ...I’d say it’s worse to be stuck playing a game for hours after a point where you no longer have a realistic chance of winning and no interesting decisions to make. If eliminated, you can always go read a book or something.<br /><br />Elimination allows a game to offer meaningful decisions throughout its runtime without the aforementioned drawback.Bonnaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667671409170609819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43697072665738182372021-07-09T15:52:44.158-04:002021-07-09T15:52:44.158-04:00Griefing in video games, especially MMOs, is ever...Griefing in video games, especially MMOs, is every bit as common. Humans have issues.Kevin J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12822203839411266747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74631543169604198032021-07-09T15:51:33.002-04:002021-07-09T15:51:33.002-04:00There is more to this, btw. For one, Roleplaying i...There is more to this, btw. For one, Roleplaying is not some monolithic thing, like monopoly. monopoly is one thing, and as far as I can tell, the rules have not changed in my lifetime, altho there are spinoffs. But RPGs are all kinds of games, with very different expectations. I hear all these stories, and they aren't every game. I have never heard of this with Gumshoe, for example.<br /><br />And RPGs are trifold, at least according to the indies: Gamist, Narrativist, and Simulationist. and those attract different people with very different expectations, and levels of suspension of disbelief. One thing I have learned to do, even with people I have played with since highschool "What kind of game are we running here?" which allows me to get an idea how to get on board.<br /><br />and, if you are actually playing ROLEplaying, it is akin to acting, and for many people, that is quite emotional, bring passions and fears right to the surface. Expect strong personalities, especially from people you least expect.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09872338936249305301noreply@blogger.com