tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6374022465999671347..comments2024-03-19T07:16:47.924-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Trent Foster Makes It PlainJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77686919100399543362010-10-30T12:23:49.999-04:002010-10-30T12:23:49.999-04:00The new URL is http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/php...The new URL is http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=5969Piotr Burzykowski [LocWorks]https://www.blogger.com/profile/10124509645729335494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58295058603298568222009-08-01T07:12:07.226-04:002009-08-01T07:12:07.226-04:00Saying "videogames done kilt RPGs" is a ...Saying "videogames done kilt RPGs" is a bit glib. TSR trashed itself thoroughly without much help from videogames at all.<br /><br />I don't think RPGs could be a dominant long-term industry in any case, mostly because playing these games IS an inherently social activity that is strongly reliant on the creative powers of the decentralized GMs, who aren't naturally dependent on your product.<br /><br />Of course a company that wants to really earn a buck would like to get around that, for example by selling lots of splatbooks and churning out a bunch of settings and selling miniatures and asking you to re-buy the whole thing in an edition change every few years and all other kinds of novelty hype.<br /><br />But the one thing they can't really sell you is a good RPG experience. Board games have a similar problem, but they have much more control over the play experience. There's too much art and skill asked of a good GM.<br /><br />But while RPGs are doomed by that, it's also true that you don't help yourself out by not giving two shits about what's actually fun to play at the table.K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-44559234534514721522009-07-31T14:24:13.704-04:002009-07-31T14:24:13.704-04:00I chime in with Wally's "videogames kille...I chime in with Wally's "videogames killed RPGs" point <a href="http://richardthinks.livejournal.com/182442.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. I'm not sure I buy Robin Laws' psychological profiling of the RPG crowd - all such efforts seem problematic to me - but of course I recognise some gamers of my own experience in the description.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-10853459791338100892009-07-31T13:40:38.583-04:002009-07-31T13:40:38.583-04:00I agree that staying the course would probably not...I agree that staying the course would probably not have saved the business, and that computer games were a big part of its decline. A lot of people played tabletop games because they were the next best thing to what they really wanted, what computers deliver today.<br /><br />I'm less sure that it's playing with a full deck to imagine that (using the Rients threefold model) "pretentious" has a better chance than "retro-stupid". Further, it would certainly not "save" the RPG to <i>replace</i> it with "story-telling".Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-24414634614470207652009-07-31T11:39:07.118-04:002009-07-31T11:39:07.118-04:00The state of RPG business now is really quite sorr...<em>The state of RPG business now is really quite sorry compared to what it was. Of course, we can only imagine what it would have been like had it taken a different course - the course the OSR represents.</em><br /><br />I think you've had a moment of deep, deep stupidity. Anyone whose understanding of roleplaying history doesn't include the words 'videogames killed tabletop roleplaying' isn't playing with a full deck.<br /><br />As long as D&D is the major outward-facing text of the RPG industry, said industry will always be identified with escapist juvenilia, power fantasies, and the worst sort of generic-fantasy codswallop. Videogames are <strong>that plus awesome moving pictures</strong>, so they win.<br /><br />(I see that asmodean has pointed this out already.)Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27522905442843210362009-07-31T11:33:48.755-04:002009-07-31T11:33:48.755-04:00And the hobby is inherently social.
Jim and Other...<em>And the hobby is inherently social.</em><br /><br />Jim and Other Gents, please listen to your master Robin Laws:<br /><br /><em>I don't think I'm exactly going out on a limb when I say that we are a glorious geek tribe, and that, as a whole, we tend more to certain personality quirks than others. Further, I submit that we contain more than our fair share of people for whom the split between thought and feeling is particularly fraught. Many of us are to one degree or another uncomfortable in standard social situations. The entire roleplaying form can be seen as an alternate mode of socialization in which the boundaries of interaction are mathematically codified - and plus, you get super-powers. <br /><br />It is therefore the ultimate form of entertainment for smart people who distrust emotion and have boundary issues.<br /><br />Except when the games come with persuasion mechanics. They smash the boundaries, dredging up feelings you'd rather not deal with. To lose control over your PC is like losing control over yourself. Worse, the things your PC does while persuaded or controlled are highly likely to be, if not unsettling, embarrassing. They get you worked up, and steal the power you've come to the gaming table to experience. <br /><br />No wonder players who feel this way avoid games with persuasion and other behavior-altering mechanics.</em><br /><br />Short version: 'Inherently social,' among American (wargames-derived) RPG types in particular, falls far short of correct.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-48190255470495311122009-07-31T11:33:41.679-04:002009-07-31T11:33:41.679-04:00And the hobby is inherently social.
Jim and Other...<em>And the hobby is inherently social.</em><br /><br />Jim and Other Gents, please listen to your master Robin Laws:<br /><br /><em>I don't think I'm exactly going out on a limb when I say that we are a glorious geek tribe, and that, as a whole, we tend more to certain personality quirks than others. Further, I submit that we contain more than our fair share of people for whom the split between thought and feeling is particularly fraught. Many of us are to one degree or another uncomfortable in standard social situations. The entire roleplaying form can be seen as an alternate mode of socialization in which the boundaries of interaction are mathematically codified - and plus, you get super-powers. <br /><br />It is therefore the ultimate form of entertainment for smart people who distrust emotion and have boundary issues.<br /><br />Except when the games come with persuasion mechanics. They smash the boundaries, dredging up feelings you'd rather not deal with. To lose control over your PC is like losing control over yourself. Worse, the things your PC does while persuaded or controlled are highly likely to be, if not unsettling, embarrassing. They get you worked up, and steal the power you've come to the gaming table to experience. <br /><br />No wonder players who feel this way avoid games with persuasion and other behavior-altering mechanics.</em><br /><br />Short version: 'Inherently social,' among American (wargames-derived) RPG types in particular, falls far short of correct.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12215651059418273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57992192391314020412009-07-31T08:54:23.550-04:002009-07-31T08:54:23.550-04:00Sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on, my noble fel...Sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on, my noble fellow travelers, carry on.K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86285362509811333412009-07-31T08:49:48.743-04:002009-07-31T08:49:48.743-04:00There were points among all that butthurt? :)There were points among all that butthurt? :)K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-531481435791680522009-07-31T08:42:04.208-04:002009-07-31T08:42:04.208-04:00And I'm not making any more. Although I'm...And I'm not making any more. Although I'm at best a "fringe OSR" guy, I value a lot of the discussion here, and I don't want to sully it up with more pointless wrangling.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36117009160661246172009-07-31T08:30:13.217-04:002009-07-31T08:30:13.217-04:00Of course, we can only imagine what it would have ...<i>Of course, we can only imagine what it would have been like had it taken a different course - the course the OSR represents.</i><br /><b>...and also if video games and CCG's hadn't been invented.</b><br /><br />I mean, come on! I've tried to stay out of this whole nonsense debate, but to claim that OSR might have "saved the hobby" is completely outrageous.<br /><br />Anyway, Joshua's already made all the points I wanted to make, so I'm stepping back out of this one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34443556278210544372009-07-31T08:14:38.474-04:002009-07-31T08:14:38.474-04:00>>Will Mistretta said...
If that's ...>>Will Mistretta said...<br /><br /> If that's all you took from the original linked post, well, your failing at reading comprehension are you own problem.<br />>><br /><br />Wow, way to completely take my comments out of context. Though I do appreciate you proving that gaming nerds are humorless chodes.<br /><br />I'm seriously sick of all this crap, and I'll reiterate: a lot of people have WAY too much time on their hands to bitch about stuff and should be devoting that time to actually playing.Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06596247660364673313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90470134685446856812009-07-31T07:43:15.495-04:002009-07-31T07:43:15.495-04:00I think it best to stay out of this nonsense mysel...I think it best to stay out of this nonsense myself, even though I play Labryinth Lord every week, one of my players also plays 4E and for him, there is no conflict, so why should there be for anyone else.<br /><br />Lets not fan the flames people. Were all gamers and there is a table that each of us can sit at and play. Lets all shut up and do just that.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4520327328036358862009-07-31T07:12:33.554-04:002009-07-31T07:12:33.554-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66582670716014359042009-07-31T06:57:06.865-04:002009-07-31T06:57:06.865-04:00There's a basic rhetorical difference between ...There's a basic rhetorical difference between me saying, "The way you play D&D is a crappy wankfest," and me saying, "You're a piece of shit," that some posters just don't seem to grasp. The first one is colorful statement of opinion. The second one, you should really just fuck off if you're going to be like that.<br /><br />Perhaps it ties in to T. Foster's article, in that some of these anti-OSR type people have inherent problems with their reasoning on the issue.<br /><br />And Herb, did you read the article? It's saying that the OSR is exactly about what you did...K. Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623767121412820113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-91679040265326891732009-07-30T20:52:26.109-04:002009-07-30T20:52:26.109-04:00@chgowiz: "@Joshua - To quote the 6 young (u...@chgowiz: <i>"@Joshua - To quote the 6 young (under 30) "fatbeard"s who are currently playing 30 year old games with me: "LOLz""</i><br /><br />?? I'm missing something. That comes across as a non sequiter to me. I can't figure out where it has anything to do with what I said.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-43137261925840055732009-07-30T20:43:54.509-04:002009-07-30T20:43:54.509-04:00Joshua said "He also made the completely unsu...Joshua said "He also made the completely unsupported and unsupportable assertion that non-OSR style gaming nearly killed the hobby."<br /><br />I'm not so sure about that. The peak of D&D was 1981 and it was a long downhill slide from there for ALL the RPG industry. (with a couple minor blips like Vampire). It wasn't until 3.0 that RPG's experienced a real resurgence and at first 3.0 kind of read as a polished updated version of "old school" D&D - but it quickly devolved, and the industry with it.<br /><br />The state of RPG business now is really quite sorry compared to what it was. Of course, we can only imagine what it would have been like had it taken a different course - the course the OSR represents.Thomas Denmarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06135075012362548876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25306842978822377682009-07-30T20:36:56.665-04:002009-07-30T20:36:56.665-04:00Am I the only one who feels that the best way to s...Am I the only one who feels that the best way to settle the current dispute is via PvP?Yog Sothothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02104602393018428099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90484320287103644222009-07-30T20:06:43.685-04:002009-07-30T20:06:43.685-04:00Didn't seem to say anything... unusual. I beli...Didn't seem to say anything... unusual. I believe much of the 'edition wars' comes from both sides who not only enjoy their game, but insult the other editions (and I've seen it on multiple sides of the arguement.)Joe G Kushnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02454826299896049587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-131354759805258302009-07-30T19:39:00.073-04:002009-07-30T19:39:00.073-04:00Calling someone a fatbeart means I'm a "p...<i>Calling someone a fatbeart means I'm a "person to ignore"</i>...<br /><br />To be honest, I conflated you with Tedopon in your last comment, but I do find your discourse here somewhat bemusing. Still, this is probably no place for an extensive examination of the whys and wherefores of what troubles me about some of the things that have been said here.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40273291825661722009-07-30T19:26:46.128-04:002009-07-30T19:26:46.128-04:00@TFoster - the punk attitude is exactly what breat...@TFoster - the punk attitude is exactly what breathes life into the hobby whether some people like it or not. Please keep the Fight going On!<br /><br />@Joshua - To quote the 6 young (under 30) "fatbeard"s who are currently playing 30 year old games with me: "LOLz"Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85655157730027753662009-07-30T19:25:46.442-04:002009-07-30T19:25:46.442-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76276515979939262042009-07-30T19:01:17.585-04:002009-07-30T19:01:17.585-04:00OK, important question first. Who is the hot blond...<i>OK, important question first. Who is the hot blonde chick in Trents KnK profile pic? That...that ain't Trent, is it?</i><br /><br />That's Edie Sedgwick, Andy Warhol's "Superstar of 1965"<br /><br />I, unsurprisingly, look pretty much like a typical gamer fatbeard (only without the beard). If you're really curious, the "SoCal Mini-Con 2" thread in the Looking For Games/Gamers board at dragonsfoot has a couple of current (2 weeks ago) pics of me "in action" with my fellow fatbeards. <br /><br />As for the rest of the comments here, thanks for the nice ones, and even for the not-to-nice ones. I'm not going to apologize for making my strongly-held opinions plain (and would note that I did say right up-front that it was likely to come off as rude and insular, and that I was posting it on "safe ground" rather than in public for a reason) but I do think it's kind of a shame if a couple of terminology choices cause you to dismiss otherwise-valid points. <br /><br />The fact that the current "rpg mainstream" is by-and-large made up of the very same people who first rejected and then helped kill the style of game and approach to play that I prefer and replaced them with "something else" is an uncomfortable topic that many people would rather avoid, at least in mixed company, and this isn't the first time I've gotten in trouble for expressing this opinion a little too indelicately.Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50019624212154922772009-07-30T18:57:42.418-04:002009-07-30T18:57:42.418-04:00@chgowiz: Well, who said that I "care", ...@chgowiz: Well, who said that I "care", exactly? I find the topic very <i>interesting</i>. RPG gaming is my main hobby, and as such I can't exactly escape the legacy of D&D. I still play it more than any other game, despite the rather uneasy peace I've had to come to about many of the D&Disms that I don't like. But mostly I just think it's very interesting. I like talking about gaming. I like discussion about gaming. I like discussion about games.<br /><br />This post that this blog linked to, unfortunately, was not a good conversation starter. Not only did it not really answer any of the accusations that it purportedly set out to do with any more sophistication than "Nuh-uh!" but then it descended into ridiculous insults. It, in fact, validated many of the claims that it was supposedly trying to "set straight."<br /><br />Sadly a few of the comments here have done the same. Calling someone a fatbeart means I'm a "person to ignore" while saying that something else is a wankfest is perfectly good, clear logic?<br /><br />This was the whole point I wanted to make with my comment, which by pure coincidence happened to be the first one because I just happened to browse by right after the initial post was made. If the online OSR fanbase is tired of being portrayed as bitter, angry fatbeards, crying over the fact that their favorite version of the game went into decline in the late 80s and 90s, then quit acting like that's exactly what you are. Trent Foster's post was simultaneously a complaint about being stereotyped that way and a validation of the very stereotype he's complaining about.<br /><br />The over-defensiveness of some of the posters here "OH NOEZ, he said something vaguely unkind about a guy who plays OD&D; we must unite against him and smite him with our Internet Fury!" syndrome is... sadly... also indicative of that same stereotype.<br /><br />I'd love to <i>talk</i> about D&D. Of any edition (except 4e, because I don't really know much about that one) but this ain't discussion. In order to have that, you can't get super prickly whenever you hear a comment from someone who's not part of the choir already.Desdichadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14774274812688958457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-85484978149178276502009-07-30T18:51:53.635-04:002009-07-30T18:51:53.635-04:00>Any other vocabulary anyone can help me with&l...>Any other vocabulary anyone can help me with<<br /><br />One of my faves these days I learned on Aintitcoolnew.com chat threads. <br /><br />"Geektard."<br /><br />That was my first choice for my blog title, but just wasn't D&D specific enough.<br /><br />The only reason I don't like "fatbeard" is that I never had a beard. Kinda fat though.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.com