tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6392990961913073932..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Happy Eleventy-Eighth, ProfessorJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25878808958461490172010-01-06T12:58:24.692-05:002010-01-06T12:58:24.692-05:00As a professor of Anglo-Saxon literature at Oxford...As a professor of Anglo-Saxon literature at Oxford, Tolkien brought to bear considerably more knowledge to his World of Middle Earth than most fledgling GMs and authors are capable of doing. He was top of his field in a prestigious university at the head of his department and a man who profoundly loved and was devoted to his art. It would really be very difficult to compete with him in this. So we shouldn't be surprised or dismayed if our efforts fall a bit short of his, I think. I strive, but with no especially grand expectations. Give me another 40 years and maybe...<br /><br />Tolkien's lifelong study of the subject allowed him to gain insights into the ancient modes historical thought that borders mythology. The Lord of the Rings is an amazing fusion of a myriad of myths, with additional extrapolations, reinterpretations, and mythopoetic inventions by Tolkien. <br /><br />I think it is not so much that the quantity of details of Tolkien's Middle Earth make for a Great World - but the wonderful insights into the ancient modes of though and myth that Tolkien brought into his World through those details. There is a very fine book on this topic titled <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Tolkiens-Ring-David-Day/dp/1586635271/ref=sr_1_40?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262800509&sr=1-40" rel="nofollow">Tolkien's Ring</a><br /><br />His ability, in addition, to frame and narrate a wonderful adventure story in the old style of voice and tone was also, imo, a culmination of a lifelong study of mythology and classical literature. He was a master of the art who learned from the masters. I should like to honor him for that, and encourage others who would wish to emulate him to do so by following in his footsteps. Read, read, read, study, study, study, reflect, reflect, reflect. Do that long enough, make it your life's work, have genius, and you may prosper.vbwyrdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14031787268876015417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-31721787840329927342010-01-04T14:14:21.416-05:002010-01-04T14:14:21.416-05:00Coincidentally, I was looking through my hardbound...Coincidentally, I was looking through my hardbound copy of The Hobbit this weekend and was struck by Tolkien's maps on the flyleaves. Wondering what was tugging at my mind, it hit me: it was those maps, way back in the early 70s that set me on the road to roleplaying games. I wanted to adventure in Middle Earth, both the grand quest and the lowly local adventure. Much as I came to love Howard and Leiber (and others), my RPG "imprinting" came from those crude maps, with their mysterious runes and terse notes.<br /><br />Happy belated eleventy-eighth, Professor. And thanks. :)Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01254215329246851683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-90390254099418023052010-01-04T05:09:26.919-05:002010-01-04T05:09:26.919-05:00Has anybody ever tried the 'Final Fantasy'...Has anybody ever tried the 'Final Fantasy' approach?<br /><br />That is to say, in the Final Fantasy series of computer RPG's, each one is set in a world that is not the same as the previous game.<br /><br />In D&D, this could play out as every campaign takes place in a different world, realm, or plane and there is no way to get back to the previous one. Sort of Sliders, perhaps, if you will.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-20419302675759618532010-01-03T22:14:22.432-05:002010-01-03T22:14:22.432-05:00My campaign has a little bit of everything out the...My campaign has a little bit of everything out there- from Greyhawk to Middle-Earth, to Darksun with intertwined histories and my own additions/modifications. But many of these have changed over time behind the scenes, and do evolve as the characters [and myself] learn more about the truth of this world. Much of this background has been speculative and turned out to be false. So, even though I have detail, it still evolves. It does not bog me down, because the players learn what I give, and I control the flow of lore as DM. The world is large but they can only explore it a little at a time, which is manageable. Recently I've started a new generation in a small village and slowly have them grow outward from there. Such things are easy if you do not go into too much detail. However, somethings will remain a mystery. Hey, you have to retain something if you incorporate Lovecraftian elements like I do... Drink full my brothers, for life is a fast and elusive nymph...Ed Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04069918557904273756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-42797262846380079262010-01-03T22:00:26.188-05:002010-01-03T22:00:26.188-05:00Totally agree there. But it's easy to do if yo...Totally agree there. But it's easy to do if you are not careful.Eli Arndthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445801567500822187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83645977005208349922010-01-03T21:49:59.846-05:002010-01-03T21:49:59.846-05:00I don't think there's anything wrong or ba...I don't think there's anything wrong or bad with a GM going into detail onto his world, but I think it's best to use it as creative fodder and not get to hung up on interjecting it into every game session.<br /><br /><br />.crowkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03066821931343968827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-34138813433347442132010-01-03T20:42:18.758-05:002010-01-03T20:42:18.758-05:00If you think about it. The Tolkien level of detail...If you think about it. The Tolkien level of detail is great from an author's POV but not so great from a DM's. <br /><br />Over-planning can be the bane of even the best DM. The best layed plans sledom survive encounters with players and that perfectly crafted world can turn into an ever-shrinking box that crushes the DM under his own creativity.<br /><br />-EliEli Arndthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445801567500822187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39848324188495629082010-01-03T20:34:46.480-05:002010-01-03T20:34:46.480-05:00Tolkien created a super dense world that lends its...Tolkien created a super dense world that lends itself to having limbs pruned and grafted onto different trees, because his work borrows or is analogous to other myths, legends and history. People borrowed from it because of the modular way it was constructed by Tolkien over the decades made it easy to do so.<br /><br />I find Tolkien's obsessive world building approach, similar to super detail oriented GMs, or even the truly obsessive and disturbed <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Darger" rel="nofollow">Henry Darger</a>. <br /><br />The works they create become rich sources for other artists, writers, film makers, and DMs, to pull from.TJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10571173651083878606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-2352789764736496762010-01-03T18:43:48.890-05:002010-01-03T18:43:48.890-05:00Interestingly enough, my younger brother is attend...Interestingly enough, my younger brother is attending a Tolkien birthday party today at the Tolkien Archives attached to Wheaton College outside Chicago.Aaron W. Thornehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09265357352225836802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39775591835543030762010-01-03T14:09:29.227-05:002010-01-03T14:09:29.227-05:00Good post! I also like starting with a small area ...Good post! I also like starting with a small area these days. I used to spend hours and hours designing worlds. In the end, they hardly got used, and while I like world-building, I'd prefer to make stuff that gets seen in play.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04732052814850525574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-68088532955856545912010-01-03T13:27:25.311-05:002010-01-03T13:27:25.311-05:00JB: "Was just re-reading the Holme's rule...JB: "Was just re-reading the Holme's rules again yesterday, and was surprised at how many outright Tolkien references were included in the book (check the monster descriptions). It appears that some people (like Holmes) saw Tolkien as a direct influence/ inspiration to parts of D&D."<br /><br />I tend to find more Tolkien the older the D&D product is. In Holmes, the only thing I see is references under Wights & Spectres, and those are the same as in Gygax' original gameplay (see James' post 12/2/09). Are there other examples?Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55175724304467553082010-01-03T12:47:58.685-05:002010-01-03T12:47:58.685-05:00After loving Tolkien's romantic conservatism a...After loving Tolkien's romantic conservatism as a kid, I'm freaked out by social conservatism as an adult and I don't let it anywhere near my fantasy. In my own campaign, the ancient artifacts are potent because the first experiments with magic were rash, naive, and unspeakably dangerous, not because Truth has been Lost to Time.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12895400855088706286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52698536400202004932010-01-03T12:26:25.451-05:002010-01-03T12:26:25.451-05:00Great post here.
I too am among those that tried ...Great post here.<br /><br />I too am among those that tried to make their original campaign worlds "Tolkien-esqe".<br /><br />My later worlds evolved a bit more organically from a central location and then growing out based on adventures or a shift in mood or focus. If we wanted something with an eastern feel, we then added a "asian" setting to our world someplace far away on the map and left the parts between it and the other places mostly blank.<br /><br />I recently ran into the problem of too much detail again when I tried to run a game in the world that had been building on its own since junior high. This world had become so complex that I found it nearly impossible to run any sort of meta plot without creating a domino effect throughout my understanding of the game world.<br /><br />"If Ravania does this, then this will happen in the Merchant Princes, which will them cause problems in the Konigslande which will ripple throughout the world, etc, etc."<br /><br />I finally had to hit the reset button and start building a new campaign world. This one started small and very localized in a rustic valley that I detailed. From here, the rest of the world would grow.Eli Arndthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10445801567500822187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7072630916324541472010-01-03T11:27:10.801-05:002010-01-03T11:27:10.801-05:00"the best way to help people jump start this ..."the best way to help people jump start this process without having to go through 30 years of campaigning."<br /><br />In my campaign, the thing that has most accelerated the growth of the setting from the undefined region around the dungeon has been Arneson's "wine, women, and song" XP rules. By encouraging players to spend their gold on the special interests that matter to them, this has really driven the development of towns, NPCs, power structures, etc. The reason I think XP-for-spending-GP works so well is that by definition it generates setting elements to fill a need that's arisen through actual play. I also encourage people to define the setting through their PCs' backgrounds, but this has had much less of an impact because it rarely comes up in play.<br /><br />I'm with James, though, in that as much as I've enjoyed watching the accumulation of detail I also see it as a problem. Even after less than 100 hours of play, the mass of stuff that there is to know becomes daunting for players to keep track of - or, perhaps more accurately, creates a disparity between those who like to remember all the details and those who'd enjoy a more wide-open canvas. This problem is especially acute for our NY Red Box campaigns, which have an irregular cast of players and frequently need to introduce newbies without letting them get lost in setting details. <br />- TavisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-27707105888216148782010-01-03T10:28:15.969-05:002010-01-03T10:28:15.969-05:00Good post, the only caveat I would add is that giv...<i>Good post, the only caveat I would add is that given enough time, enough campaigns, a setting will wind up looking like Middle Earth in terms of organization.</i><br /><br>Absolutely. Any setting, no matter how shallow at the start, if played enough, will develop Middle-earth levels of complexity over time. But that complexity isn't necessary to start a campaign nor do I think it's particularly conducive to a campaign's long-term viability -- just the opposite, in fact. <br /><br /><i>It seems that the best settings are those that grow in this fashion rather than spring full flower from an author's mind.</i><br />That's my experience as well.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58600321894706197712010-01-03T09:58:59.034-05:002010-01-03T09:58:59.034-05:00Good post, the only caveat I would add is that giv...Good post, the only caveat I would add is that given enough time, enough campaigns, a setting will wind up looking like Middle Earth in terms of organization.<br /><br />While Middle Earth was never roleplayed by Tolkien, lest people forget he built Middle Earth piece by piece starting with a few notes on a language and a tale before World War I. The process is detailed in the History of Middle Earth series complied by his son Christopher. <br /><br />Blackmoor and Greyhawk (the original version) were likewise built up the same way. Starting with a castle and a dungeon the world grew around them piece by piece.<br /><br />It seems that the best settings are those that grow in this fashion rather than spring full flower from an author's mind. <br /><br />I am still trying to figure out the best way to help people jump start this process without having to go through 30 years of campaigning.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77365490163176170762010-01-03T05:17:36.435-05:002010-01-03T05:17:36.435-05:00> Judging from the fantasy novels that followed...> Judging from the fantasy novels that followed in the wake of Tolkien's success in the 60s and 70s<br /><br />aside: that was (late 60s/early 70s) primarily a swords & sorcery and earlier fantasy revival with a small amount of genuinely "new work". The Tolkien devolutionists (apeists? *g*) came rather later.<br />For that earlier period the in-depth delvers/imitators/budding authors were primarily in the burgeoning Tolkien fandom ( http://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/wiwimod/index.php?page=FanzineHistory ) rather than the "mainstream".<br /><br />> having produced what is quite arguably the most influential fantasy novel in the English language -- perhaps any language. <br /><br />Very little "arguing" for recent times IMO despite the Rowling apologists. ;)<br />(Further back, it was a different world and people did things differently, then. It's a bit pointless comparing bluntly with Alice in Wonderland, the Divine Comedy or the Epic of Gilgamesh, for example).<br /><br />> But my intention today is not to go over old ground. Instead, I wish to discuss an area where I do think Tolkien has been influential on the hobby of roleplaying (and, of course, on fantasy writing more generally). <br /><br />*nods* Beloved by world-creating GMs the world over, regardless of literary preference and/or whether they'd wish to admit to that. *ducks* :p<br /><br />(Y'could add Doc Smith, A.E. Van Vogt & co. on the /SF/ RPG side, too, of course; since on /that/ scale we've left the readily encompassable and catalogable behind and have little choice but to freewheel rather more of the time - even allowing for 2,500+ literary installment series. ;)<br /><br />verification word: rolex (hmm...)irbyzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10193584357850337816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-32477586353512776652010-01-03T04:37:21.953-05:002010-01-03T04:37:21.953-05:00I identify strongly with your description of your ...I identify strongly with your description of your world-building efforts as a youngster; I did the same thing, and these days would also prefer a rather more mysterious, organically grown milieu. The trouble is, I've put so much work into my main campaign area that I'm loathe to discard it all :)<br /><br />Fortunately there's a whole extra hemisphere of the planet sitting in the wings, mapped out but hardly explored at all and just waiting for some adventurers to start tearing it to bits. If I can nudge the party in that direction I can have my cake and eat it too.Peter Fitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17675284304482852740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74070387673572786662010-01-03T02:30:39.893-05:002010-01-03T02:30:39.893-05:00Was just re-reading the Holme's rules again ye...Was just re-reading the Holme's rules again yesterday, and was surprised at how many outright Tolkien references were included in the book (check the monster descriptions). It appears that some people (like Holmes) saw Tolkien as a direct influence/inspiration to parts of D&D.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.com