tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post6522110295070049151..comments2024-03-19T05:48:34.142-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Continuity and Tradition, Part VJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-87614884407917541462010-03-07T16:49:09.428-05:002010-03-07T16:49:09.428-05:00I agree with Charles. This is why it's of pre-...I agree with Charles. This is why it's of pre-eminent importance that Christopher Nolan draw more influence from Adam West's Batman in his next Batman film.<br /><br />... or perhaps not.Justin Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02227895898395353754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39860855674319816232010-03-04T00:16:05.879-05:002010-03-04T00:16:05.879-05:00Rach's reflections: You're right, and I wi...Rach's reflections: You're right, and I will cut it out.<br /><br />There are times when James takes a surprising amount of heat for reasonable opinions. Some people agree with him and say why, some disagree and say why, and both of these advance the discussion. Other repeated comments suggest the posters would not be satisfied unless James publicly repudiated his position.<br /><br />If it doesn't bother James, I shouldn't let it bother me. No more straw men.Rick Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01707062453047354335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67768687030681285722010-03-03T22:00:01.697-05:002010-03-03T22:00:01.697-05:00One of the dangers of Hollywood adaptations is it ...<i>One of the dangers of Hollywood adaptations is it tends to crush the original interpretations of things because apparently audio-visual media is more important than print.</i><br /><br>Very true! That's a big part of Christopher Tolkien's criticisms of the recent LotR films. Speaking from personal experience, there are some movies whose imagery was so powerful that they actually changed the way I viewed characters/events from books I'd read prior to seeing the movies. That's a very real danger and one that I don't think should be dismissed out of hand.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-36212379512349159242010-03-03T21:57:57.005-05:002010-03-03T21:57:57.005-05:00Interesting that discussion has mostly focused on ...<i>Interesting that discussion has mostly focused on fictional characters (see my initial post on the same issues in 'historical' cinema) - but maybe that's just too big a kettle of fish to open.</i><br /><br>Unsurprisingly, I'm rather keen on historical accuracy in film where possible, it should come as no surprise :)James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67822057523095854212010-03-03T21:56:52.006-05:002010-03-03T21:56:52.006-05:00I'm much more interested in how the movie dive...<i>I'm much more interested in how the movie diverges from the original text and what that says about today's contemporary society and popular culture.</i><br /><br>I can see that as interesting from an academic/sociological perspective, but that's not generally how I approach works of art, even popular art, such as movies.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-61342843370052220932010-03-03T11:28:34.671-05:002010-03-03T11:28:34.671-05:00Rick Marshall: You're putting up a straw man. ...Rick Marshall: You're putting up a straw man. Cut it out.<br /><br />Anyway, I came into Conan through back issues of Savage Sword Of Conan my library had, and I've always found them perfectly cromulent (pun not intended) adventure stories. I was going to make points about Batman, Iron Man, Lord of the Rings, etc., but they seem to have been made already.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55895297448657352632010-03-03T10:50:58.666-05:002010-03-03T10:50:58.666-05:00Taranaich: “And, again, how will we know if a fait...Taranaich: “<b>And, again, how will we know if a faithful REH adaptation wouldn't be as good as a non-Conan film inspired by Howard... if nobody's tried?</b>”<br /><br />Easy. How many film adaptions of literature have been good? A good adaptation is by far the exception rather than the rule. More often than not, it either tries so hard to be 100% faithful that it ends up being a bad film, or it manages to miss many of the important qualities of the original. It <em>could</em> happen, but I wouldn’t bet on it. ^_^Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70585743128077059162010-03-03T07:51:31.605-05:002010-03-03T07:51:31.605-05:00One of the dangers of Hollywood adaptations is it ...One of the dangers of Hollywood adaptations is it tends to crush the original interpretations of things because apparently audio-visual media is more important than print.<br /><br />The biggest pop-culture example of that is Wizard of Oz. The movie takes a lot of liberties with Baum's work. But it's become so ingrained into the public conciousness that when a more faithful interpretation, Return to Oz, came out it didn't do well at the Box Office.<br /><br />In many cases, some books are out of print now. You can't buy the Novel for The Falcon and the Snowman at Amazon (other than through some third parties), but you can buy the DVD of the 1985 movie. You can't find the original children's book "The Year Without a Santa Claus" at Amazon at all, but you can get the Rakin-Bass DVD.JRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06028363896728357260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11685493456552310862010-03-03T03:38:19.624-05:002010-03-03T03:38:19.624-05:00I have to agree with Smarch.
"I love Conan s...I have to agree with Smarch.<br /><br />"I love Conan stories. Most of the folks who posted here love Conan stories....but I think...that we are an atypical collection of the general movie-going population."<br /><br />The vast majority of the movie going populace just doesn’t care. They want a cool action flick with flashing swords and chain-mail bikinis. They aren't there for this theoretical subtle character growth which, because it occurs over several stories, couldn't be portrayed effectively in the movie anyway. A tempest in a teaspoon.<br /><br />I made a comment on another post about arm-chair quarterbacking. I still stand by this. The product isn’t finished, the script is - apparently - not set and suddenly the lead is looking better, literally, than previously. I am a staunch Conan fan but I don’t have the emotional investment that others seem to have in this so I’ll wait for the final product before passing judgment.<br /><br />Oh, and Prof. Barrett. You rock!!!Narmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08635665594860371230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86915447468355942702010-03-03T01:38:51.866-05:002010-03-03T01:38:51.866-05:00Those poor Hollywood directors!
James, why do you...Those poor Hollywood directors!<br /><br />James, why do you oppress them so with your entirely unreasonable and impractical demand for fidelity in adapting Conan to film? Can't you see they're just patriots who yearn to be free of your tyrannical standards?<br /><br />Aren't we all tired of the soul-crushing monotony of one faithful adaptation after another? Surely after a century of totalitarian adherence to complete, slavish fidelity to source material, can't someone, somewhere show us the true meaning of freedom by just once making a film that takes at least a few liberties with the source?<br /><br />James, why can't Conan be that one, first film to break free? For the love of God, man, in the end have you no decency?Rick Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01707062453047354335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29122253371913432992010-03-03T01:30:27.578-05:002010-03-03T01:30:27.578-05:00"the implication seemingly that the original ..."the implication seemingly that the original material is incapable of succeeding on its own merits" <br /><br />isn't this always kind of implied when you make a book into a movie? what's special about books is that they make a world out of words. when you ask for a movie based on a book, you're saying, "the words are not enough-- I need some pictures and music to help me see the world."<br /><br />I know there's more to it than that- but what? If a faithful Conan movie were made, what wish would it fulfill?Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70915099899715589942010-03-03T00:55:59.660-05:002010-03-03T00:55:59.660-05:00@James:
Maybe some fans should do a project like ...@James:<br /><br />Maybe some fans should do a project like the 2005 'Call of Cthulhu' movie?<br /><br />Although they had the advantage that it's easier to find fans that are spindly, sick and haunted-looking than ones who move with panther-like grace :)anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-50885652302658951592010-03-03T00:52:21.019-05:002010-03-03T00:52:21.019-05:00@Paul:
That gives me a great idea - what if you h...@Paul:<br /><br />That gives me a great idea - what if you had a game where Conan, Harry Potter and Frodo Baggins could team up and have adventures in a place that was like World of Warcraft?anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-63237883038527171782010-03-02T22:31:30.883-05:002010-03-02T22:31:30.883-05:00I think we're largely talking past one another...I think we're largely talking past one another here. Imagine that! And on the internet! <br /><br />Non sequitur - <br /><br />I love Conan stories. Most of the folks who posted here love Conan stories. And yet, this might come as a shock to some of you, but I think it just barely possible -- just barely!! -- that we are an atypical collection of the general movie-going population. <br /><br />I stand by my earlier statement that a movie about that elephant thing would not be a blockbuster. Great written tale, sure. But a very weird movie. I also disagree that Conan shows any significant character growth throughout his career. So he gets wise to city folk. Is that growth? I guess so, if you consider not touching a stove after you've been burned on it "growth". Conan is basically the same impulsive barbarian as either King or Thief. And that's great! I'm not reading Conan for character.<br /><br />For me, a classic example of character growth through events is Jaime Lannister. By the end of the fourth book, Jaime is a completely different person than the one boinking his sister at Ned Stark's house. He still isn't particularly likable, but he has changed. Conan, on the other hand, is the same person wearing a different hat.<br /><br />So here we are, two rabid Conan fans, and <i>we</i> can't agree on fundamental aspects of Mr. Conan's character. I'm not sure a fancy-shmancy Hollywood director would make either one of us happy. Is he wrong to even try?<br /><br />Cheers!The Smarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10587254105724909278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80296707201852192462010-03-02T21:00:13.308-05:002010-03-02T21:00:13.308-05:00I wonder if "People of the Black Circle"...I wonder if "People of the Black Circle" would work as a film: you've got a number of sizable female parts in that along with the Black Seers.Rob Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791752557408134270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7751783760635473602010-03-02T19:48:43.534-05:002010-03-02T19:48:43.534-05:00Taranaich,
If you're reading Conan for the ch...Taranaich,<br /><br />If you're reading Conan for the character development and growth, IMO you're reading it all, all wrong.<br /><br />And that's the point:<i> in my opinion</i>. That anyone would a) be able to, and b) even want to read a REH story for anything other than the raw vitality that leaps from the page is to me incomprehensible. No matter how I try, I just can't see how it can be done.<br /><br />But so what? That's your thing, so power to you. But it does highlight the futility of nailing the "true" Conan, much less holding others accountable for adhering to that (i.e. your) truth.<br /><br />And for the record: I do think a movie that captures the "elemental" Conan would be a both a very, very cool movie and even a profitable one. Why not? After all, the real Conan has already worked on the big screen as Dirty Harry and John McClane (just to name two).charles mark fergusonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13385121479729236749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-66200948549777054942010-03-02T19:42:59.085-05:002010-03-02T19:42:59.085-05:00in re copyright: I thought James' complaint wa...in re copyright: I thought James' complaint was less about the lack of a screen version of a specific Conan story than it was a complaint about the vision and mentality of the screen Conans, and how they do not come close to the Conan of REH, of whatever period of the Cimmerian's life. If so, then the copyright issue is moot, for one could easily imagine a non-canon Conan story (indeed, there are many potential plots available through gaming and especially the OSR) which accurately represented the spirit of Howard's Conan. [of course to use the name at all, one must have some sort of license]<br /><br />Interesting that discussion has mostly focused on fictional characters (see my initial post on the same issues in 'historical' cinema) - but maybe that's just too big a kettle of fish to open.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09581075774319858322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-72357197338680028062010-03-02T19:41:46.146-05:002010-03-02T19:41:46.146-05:00Yes, every generation reinvents Holmes, Dracula, A...<i>Yes, every generation reinvents Holmes, Dracula, Arthur, Superman, and Batman. However, in each case, the new generation is grounded in some measure of the original. Batman's parents are always shot outside a public venue, he always has the Wayne fortune, he always has Alfred and the Batmobile and the Batcave. Superman's always from Krypton, he's always super-strong/fast/has a costume, he's always raised by the Kents in Smallville, Kansas.</i><br /><br>We Howard aficionados should be so lucky as to have Conan reinvented every generation as well as Batman or Superman.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-54097994958852180722010-03-02T19:39:44.118-05:002010-03-02T19:39:44.118-05:00Conan really is no longer the character REH saw in...<i>Conan really is no longer the character REH saw in his mind's eye, and attempts to freeze him in that form are doomed and probably misguided.</i><br /><br>It's not about "freezing" him, though, so much as hoping that a filmmaker might be willing to do more than swipe some proper names from Howard and slap them on to characters and stories that have nothing to do with their putative inspirations. I think it'd be possible to come up with original Conan stories to use in a film and I have nothing against such a thing, even in principle. But why must these stories run so counter to the character's Howardian origins?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57334705768585867152010-03-02T19:31:47.932-05:002010-03-02T19:31:47.932-05:00A point that hasn't been brought up is copyrig...<i>A point that hasn't been brought up is copyright.</i><br /><br>That's an interesting angle I hadn't considered. I'm not sure that is the explanation of what's going on here, but it's intriguing to consider.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56273095968154499132010-03-02T19:30:40.801-05:002010-03-02T19:30:40.801-05:00I still don't understand why "Beyond the ...<i>I still don't understand why "Beyond the Back River" or "A Which Shall Be Born" or whatever couldn't be used as a basis for the film.</i><br /><br>I agree. I think "Beyond the Black River" would be eminently filmable and a roaring good movie to boot.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-74957489595423358062010-03-02T19:22:13.430-05:002010-03-02T19:22:13.430-05:00To be honest, I'm not that interested in wheth...To be honest, I'm not that interested in whether the conan movie sticks closely to the original text.<br /><br />I'm much more interested in how the movie diverges from the original text and what that says about today's contemporary society and popular culture.<br /><br />The cultural history of Conan, like the cultural history of James Bond or G.I.Joe, tells us something about ourselves, what we value, and what we want our heroes/heroines to be<br /><br />Each generation reinvents these characters to suit their needs. That's what this is really about.Kiltedyaksmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03462341093016199620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-40545981722609309492010-03-02T19:19:34.853-05:002010-03-02T19:19:34.853-05:00Of course, why every hero movie has to have an ori...<i>Of course, why every hero movie has to have an origin story is beyond me.</i><br /><br>You and me both. Origin stories tend to reduce a character rather than flesh him out in my experience.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59368501927438324932010-03-02T19:17:23.269-05:002010-03-02T19:17:23.269-05:00Who is Conan? A character from the imagination of ...<i>Who is Conan? A character from the imagination of a mentally unstable racist with an Oedipus complex who wrote stories of his barbarian while the shade of Conan 'stood' behind him.</i><br /><br>Mr De Camp? Is that you?James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-30931802374526266422010-03-02T19:05:04.352-05:002010-03-02T19:05:04.352-05:00Taranaich: great point and strikes directly to one...Taranaich: great point and strikes directly to one of my principle hopes whenever I see a great franchise fondled by Hollyweird.<br /><br />Richard: great link!<br /><br />Any REH story could, and would, have to be adapted to play to the strengths of the new medium. That is the art of cinema or any other medium - playing to the strengths of its presentation without fundamentally changing the story. And that is where I usually find fault - instead of adapting REH's creation, I see wholesale changes. Do we have to see Conan's father to understand the character? Do we really need another dose of pop-barbarian psychotherapy to have a satisfying movie?<br /><br />I'd love to see an adaptation of RED NAILS on the screen, but I don't hold out any real hope for it.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07658933494667102127noreply@blogger.com